(Topic ID: 299081)

White Water Start Switch issue

By JethroP

2 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by dsuperbee
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

Need some advice please. When the game has been off for a while, and I turn it on and it completes the boot, the start switch doesn't do anything. Then, if the game sits on for a minute or so, the switch begins to work. If I turn the game off for a minute and turn it back on, the switch works. So sees to be that something needs to be warm before the switch works.

i have replaced the switch. No change.

When I go into switch test, the switch doesn't register until the machine warms up. Any ideas?

#2 2 years ago

Reseat the switch connectors at the bottom of the CPU. Do you see any battery corrosion on the CPU anywhere?

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Reseat the switch connectors at the bottom of the CPU. Do you see any battery corrosion on the CPU anywhere?

I have done that and there is no corrosion.

#4 2 years ago

start buttons go bad quite easily on alot of the williams games. you sure that maybe your button just isn't fully engaging? ive prob replaced 6=8 of them over the years

#5 2 years ago

The start button tests good. I checked the continuity when pressing it and it is good. I had another switch and went ahead and changed it anyway. Made no difference.

Should jumpering on the MPU J207-1 to J209-3 start a game?

#6 2 years ago

Battery corrosion towards the bottom of the MPU?

#7 2 years ago

I don’t see any corrosion.

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#8 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Should jumpering on the MPU J207-1 to J209-3 start a game?

It should.

When you turn on the game and it's cold and start doesn't work , can you get into switch test mode right away ? Do any of the switches on column 1 or row 3 act up as well? Or is it specifically always just the start button ? If others are affected as well , depending which switches are acting up you can start locating on which side the problem is. If all the switches in column 1 act up , then the components for column 1 would have to be checked and tested, if all switches on row 3 are acting up, then components for row 3 are to be checked. If no other switches act up it would then mean the issues is around the start button itself or its wiring.

Solid state parts usually don't break in a "warm up and work" fashion. Capacitors , resistors could react that way if they were broken but it's also very rare. Corrosion can do this, but your board and the involved components do not seem to have any corrosion either.

Can you get into the test menus at all before it "warms" up ? If you can't either , I would start looking at the +12V which is common to all the switches. If this voltage takes time to rise , it would prevent start , and the direct switches from working right away.

I would also look at the 5v. I see you seem to have a board in between J210's plug. This tells me you've had issues in the past with power and instead of fixing the board correctly , a band-aid was added. If the PDB is clean and working properly , including all the connectors (most important) and a new cap job done (after nearly 30 years , it's becoming more and more important) then you should not need any "no reset" boards in your machine.

Something that people often fail to mention when they have issues like this is , how many mods have you added to the machine that is pulling down the 12v? You should not run a single mod connected to the power lines of your machine. Your mods should use a different power supply that is used just for the mods. The only acceptable mods would be a color DMD and GI/LED OCDs. Even if you think you have enough power left on the rails to power your mods, you cannot be certain that the mod will not add a lot of noise back on the power lines of your CPU board.

1) Corrosion
2) Voltage issues
3a) Chips and components
3b) Wiring and diodes of every switch in the same column / row.

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#9 2 years ago

Well, for the past day, the start button has been working....however: thank you Roamin for the detailed information. Even though it is working now, something isn't right. I'll start first by saying this problem began after installing the color DMD mod. Second, even though the start button is working starting a game, when I jumper MPU J207-1 to J209-3, it doesn't start a game. It fires a solenoid under the playfield (haven't determined which one). Lastly, that board you see at J210 was there when I got the game. I don't know anything about it.

So does it sound like I have a weak 12v power supply?

#10 2 years ago

Also, are all these optos supposed to show illuminated in this test? They work fine playing a game. The switch tests show no faults otherwise.

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#11 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Well, for the past day, the start button has been working....however: thank you Roamin for the detailed information. Even though it is working now, something isn't right. I'll start first by saying this problem began after installing the color DMD mod. Second, even though the start button is working starting a game, when I jumper MPU J207-1 to J209-3, it doesn't start a game. It fires a solenoid under the playfield (haven't determined which one). Lastly, that board you see at J210 was there when I got the game. I don't know anything about it.
So does it sound like I have a weak 12v power supply?

That is a kahr board, and is a bandaid for the classic 5v reset issue. Most likely you need to fix your 5v and possibly your 12v. Have you tested your 12v at the test point?

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#12 2 years ago

I measured the 5 and 12 volt points at the MPU J210 and on the driver board TP2 and TP3. On the MPU I get 4.8v and 11.8v. On the driver board I get 4.86 at TP2 and 11.96 at TP3. Are these too low? If so, which components would need to be replaced?

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I measured the 5 and 12 volt points at the MPU J210 and on the driver board TP2 and TP3. On the MPU I get 4.8v and 11.8v. On the driver board I get 4.86 at TP2 and 11.96 at TP3. Are these too low? If so, which components would need to be replaced?

Yes, too low for both.

5v: check the connector at j101. If there is any visual sign of resistance (brownish pins) replace both male and female parts. (A easy Check is to reseat connector and measure the 5v again. If it goes up the connector is most likely the issue) This has been the issue for me personally on early all 5v reset issues in almost 20 years. It has been the bridge twice and the cap once. That being said, go to pinwiki.com, click on the wpc link and scroll to the reset section. Follow that guide. Don't go shotgunning repairs.

12v is most likely a Leaky cap at c2. If it has indeed leaked be prepared to deal with corrosion to the components to the left and right of the cap. Depending on your abilities it may be wise to send the board out for professional repair.

Since your 12v is low moving the 5v over to it via the kahr board will eventually stop your game from booting.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Yes, too low for both.

I checked the connector at J101. It is clean. I reseated it and made no difference.

C2 also does not appear to have leaked (externally). I can replace if you think it looks suspect.

Go do the piniwiki upgrades next?

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#15 2 years ago

Yup. Pinwiki stuff is next.

I can do my own boardwork and would do c2 as it is old even given how the cap looks.

#16 2 years ago

Still wondering if all these optos showing closed is normal:

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#17 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Still wondering if all these optos showing closed is normal:

No it is indeed not normal. Not every switch is an "opto" though. Most are just 2 metal contacts touching each other. The switch matrix mentions only 2 optos , 86 and 87. While in switch test mode , disconnect J-207 and J-209 , if that column doesn't change you have an issue on the MPU board , mostlikely U20. If it does change and clear then you have an issue with the wiring on the playfield. You can compare the DC voltage read at pin 13 of U20 with the voltage you read at 18,17,16,15,14,12 and 11. They should all be similar if they aren't , compare DC voltage you read at pins 1,2,3,4,5,7 and 8 to pin 6. If these voltages all read similar but the output at 13 wasn't, then U20 is bad. It's even easier if you have a logic probe.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Roamin:

No it is indeed not normal. Not every switch is an "opto" though. Most are just 2 metal contacts touching each other. The switch matrix mentions only 2 optos , 86 and 87. While in switch test mode , disconnect J-207 and J-209 , if that column doesn't change you have an issue on the MPU board , mostlikely U20. If it does change and clear then you have an issue with the wiring on the playfield. You can compare the DC voltage read at pin 13 of U20 with the voltage you read at 18,17,16,15,14,12 and 11. They should all be similar if they aren't , compare DC voltage you read at pins 1,2,3,4,5,7 and 8 to pin 6. If these voltages all read similar but the output at 13 wasn't, then U20 is bad. It's even easier if you have a logic probe.

This is incorrect. Switches in the 6th column are all optos. His matrix is fine.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Switches in the 6th column are all optos. His matrix is fine.

Thank you for confirming that! So I guess my first task will be to get the 5v and 12v higher. I'll start on that next.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Thank you for confirming that! So I guess my first task will be to get the 5v and 12v higher. I'll start on that next.

5v should be the priority, as the game wont boot without it. Once that is stabilized and the kahr board is removed i bet the 12v is fine.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

5v should be the priority, as the game wont boot without it.

Checked all the caps on the driver board. C4 on the 5v supply measured 48uF. Supposed to be 100uF. I've ordered caps and will replace them all for another 20-30 years of service life. I should have good 5v supply soon and will report back.

#22 2 years ago

Replaced all the electrolytic caps on the driver board. Measuring the 5 and 12 volt TP's now I have 4.9v and 12.0v. I removed the Kahr board too. Game is playing fine. Are these voltages ok now, and should I leave the Kahr board out?

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Replaced all the electrolytic caps on the driver board. Measuring the 5 and 12 volt TP's now I have 4.9v and 12.0v. I removed the Kahr board too. Game is playing fine. Are these voltages ok now, and should I leave the Kahr board out?

Yes and yes.

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