(Topic ID: 80502)

White Water resets when cold and after vacation planner...


By Spencer

5 years ago



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  • 20 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Big70
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

So I've had my White Water for a few months now and everything was good until the last week or so.... It all started with me hitting the Vacation Planner, the game went crazy, which is, I guess, normal, lol and then about a minute later it reset.

Since then, it resets 4-5 times every time I turn it on and hit both flippers, after 4-5 games it hasnt reset again.

Some more info....

My basement is cool, its been very cold here the last few weeks, I keep my house at 70 F but I would guess the basement is at best 63-65 F, possibly colder.

I am aware it is not uncommon for Williams games to reset and I have read the posts about how to fix it, although Im not sure I completely understand them though.

I have no interest in board work and I am planning on doing a resto on this game, so would it be in my best interest to just send off the board and have it rebuilt/repaired or should I look elsewhere first. I havent checked the wall socket voltage but ive tried a few differant ones since it started acting up and I find it hard to believe it would be fine for months if the wall socket voltage was the issue.

Any advise would be appreciated,

-Spencer

#2 5 years ago

I think you should get a Rottendog MPU board... It should help I think

#3 5 years ago

I would try to reseat connectors, usually in my experience this is the case, or the bridge rectifier/power capacitor combo could be due for replacement. Also, check the diodes on the flipper coils, give them a tug to make sure there's no cracked or broken connections.

#4 5 years ago

If you're new to this I'd follow the steps on pinwiki regarding resets:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets

I wouldn't reseat anything until you check all voltage test points then systematically reseat connectors until you see a rise in voltage. That narrows down the bad connector. If you reseat them all at once, the resets may go away but will soon be back.

Cheers,
Art

#5 5 years ago

It could be as simple as a bad coil diode or the known list of things that cause the 5V drop that causes resets.
If you are not sure on how to trouble shoot ask before doing or get the help of a friend.

Nothing wrong with having a spare working board but I would re-build the one you have as well.

#6 5 years ago

These boards are easily rebuild able. No need to buy a replacement 99% of the time. If you don't know someone competent, send it out to a reputable repair service such as http://www.ksarcade.com or http://www.coinopcauldron.com Both are top notch.

#7 5 years ago

Thank you for the info, I think I may send the board out, I will try to narrow it down a little first, just seems everyone says replace parts on the board.

I will try and tackle some of the pin wiki tests first.

#8 5 years ago

Personally, from your description of how it started and has progressed to every time you hit both flippers, I'm pretty confident it's a bad BR2 bridge rectifier and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board.

Check your J101 power connector on the driver board first. It can get heat damage like GI connectors sometimes. If it has obvious browning heat damage or is completely crispy, it needs to be replaced (male and female). If it looks good, wiggle that connector and see if that affects anything. If it does, you've got bad solder joints on the male plug. Could be the vibration of the game play is causing the reset.

Beyond that, a huge majority of the time, you problem is going to be a bad bridge rectifier BR2 and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board. You can buy them at Pinball Life for something like $1.75 and $2.50. When replacing, I suggest running a jumper wire from BR2 + to C5 + and also form the - to - of each. That ensures you have good continuity between them, which is key, as sometimes the traces can get a little damaged. It's not a must, but if you don't, you need to double check you have good continuity with a meter form + to + of each and - to -. Replacing those will clear up your issue probably 90% of the time, as long as your J101 is good. Again, based on the description you gave, I'd start by replacing these and be extremely confident that'll fix the issue.

There are other less likely things on the driver board that can cause the reset issue, but I'd suggest dropping $8 - $10 in parts with shipping for the bridge and cap and spending 15 - 20 minutes replacing the parts and reinstalling the board if you're experienced. If you're not experienced at soldering, probably best to send it off or get with a local person that can repair it. It's an extremely common problem and shouldn't be a hard or expensive fix.

#9 5 years ago

Thanks for your reply!

I followed pin-wiki and unplugged J101 and J102. All the connections look nice and clean and the connectors are not burnt.

Plugged them back in, fired it up and it reset.... but only once now. Ive tried it several times over the last 24 hours and it resets once every time. Used to do it, 4-5 times everytime.

I guess I should pull the board and check the soldering on it?

#10 5 years ago

Check for cracked solder joints on the backs of the connectors

112833-i.jpg

#11 5 years ago

Do yourself a favor and follow the steps in the Pinwiki linked by MrArt http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets

It covers checking all the items mentioned to you so far and are in order of ease of fix and probability of being the cause.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Do yourself a favor and follow the steps in the Pinwiki linked by MrArt http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets
It covers checking all the items mentioned to you so far and are in order of ease of fix and probability of being the cause.

I did! and clearly unplugging those connectors changed something, went from 4-5 resets to 1 each time. So im gooing to pull the board and check the solder connections next.

#13 5 years ago

If pulling the plug changes something, you've definitely got 1 or more bad solder joints. Rather than just reflowing the old cracked solder, I'd suggest sucking off the old solder and put fresh solder on each pin. Vids pic shows cracks that are very easy to spot, but sometimes they are hairline or even inside a solder bubble, so don't worry if you don't see such obvious cracks. J101 is likely the plug causing the problem.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from Big70:

If pulling the plug changes something, you've definitely got 1 or more bad solder joints. Rather than just reflowing the old cracked solder, I'd suggest sucking off the old solder and put fresh solder on each pin. Vids pic shows cracks that are very easy to spot, but sometimes they are hairline or even inside a solder bubble, so don't worry if you don't see such obvious cracks. J101 is likely the plug causing the problem.

Agreed, then if no difference, caps and BR..

I have had so many reset issues with B/W's and its always the same culprit's

#15 5 years ago

Why on earth would you suggest to a newb, that he either do board work, or spend a bunch of money on shipping and board work, when it's quite possible that the power/driver board has nothing at all to do with the problem?

Clearly, simply reseating J101 helped some. It's a good thing the newb didn't haul out the iron.

Come on guys.
Follow the process in the PinWiki.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Why on earth would you suggest to a newb, that he either do board work, or spend a bunch of money on shipping and board work, when it's quite possible that the power/driver board has nothing at all to do with the problem?
Clearly, simply reseating J101 helped some. It's a good thing the newb didn't haul out the iron.
Come on guys.
Follow the process in the PinWiki.

Please, explain to me how you would think it may have nothing at all to do with the driver board at this point.....What would you suggest is the issue if you remove J101 and it vastly improves, but did not fix the original problem? How would that suggest to you that it may have nothing at all to do with the driver board? Even your almighty pinwiki would suggest it has to do with the driver board. Step 3 suggests that he pull the board and inspect the solder on the connectors we've already told him about. If you move further down pinwiki to step 5, it now tells him he needs to repin his female connector and replace the male pins on the driver board:

"Step 5.5: Examine both male and female connectors at J101
(WPC-95: J129)"J101 (WPC-95: J129) connects the transformer secondary supply of both 9VAC (solid colored red wires, ultimately used to create 5VDC power) and 13VAC to the power/driver board. This connector often becomes tarnished, increasing resistance and reducing the effectiveness of the circuit. Reseating the connector may temporarily reduce reset frequency. This is an indication that this connector should be repinned. As always, it's best to repin both the male and female connectors"

I disagree with that as a blanket solution. It certainly won't hurt to put a new male and female plug on, but it may not be necessary. He could simply have some cold solder joints, which In my experience working on many, many driver boards and reset problems, is a common issue when reseating the connector improves, but does not fix the issue. Now if the female connector is browned from heat, then yes, I would say it absolutely needs the male and female replaced. If he were just following pinwiki, he'd be doing more work than we are suggesting he do.

#17 5 years ago

I had a few resets that appeared on my new WW just recently, I had a tell tale sign of J101 getting warm, and brown heat marks starting to show on the plug. In addition to the PinWiki diagnostic routes, try gently wiggling that plug or the red wires while in attract mode to see of you get resets.
In my case I had a bad connector in the J101 plug that was lacking enough tension against the header pin for one of the red wires. I simply replaced the connector, and polished the header pins.

#18 5 years ago

Well..considering I'm pretty lazy I usually just shotgun the components with know reset issues on the WPC(XX) stuff.

BR ~ Cap ~ jumper wire ~ reflow header pins ~ repin J101/J129. From finding your screw driver to turning the game back on shouldn't be much more than an hour...may 2 if it's your first shot at it. Since I started messing with pin in the late 90s this has fixed 100% of any rest issues I've had. Maybe I'm just lucky =)

5 bucks in parts and good for another 20 years

If you still have reset issues then start trouble shooting further down stream (providing you have a good 115v+ at the wall with no drops)

#19 5 years ago

My statements...

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Why on earth would you suggest to a newb, that he either do board work, or spend a bunch of money on shipping and board work, when it's quite possible that the power/driver board has nothing at all to do with the problem?

Clearly, simply reseating J101 helped some.

Big70...the sequence of my statements implied something other than my intent.

The first paragraph was aimed at these statements, which jump to a conclusion, without first examining easier (for a newb) and cheaper solutions.

Quoted from Big70:

Personally, from your description of how it started and has progressed to every time you hit both flippers, I'm pretty confident it's a bad BR2 bridge rectifier and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board.

Quoted from Big70:

a huge majority of the time, you problem is going to be a bad bridge rectifier BR2 and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board.

Quoted from Big70:

Again, based on the description you gave, I'd start by replacing these and be extremely confident that'll fix the issue.

Quoted from Big70:

There are other less likely things on the driver board that can cause the reset issue, but I'd suggest dropping $8 - $10 in parts with shipping for the bridge and cap and spending 15 - 20 minutes replacing the parts and reinstalling the board if you're experienced. If you're not experienced at soldering, probably best to send it off or get with a local person that can repair it. It's an extremely common problem and shouldn't be a hard or expensive fix.

Quoted from dbeeson:

I would try to reseat connectors, usually in my experience this is the case, or the bridge rectifier/power capacitor combo could be due for replacement.

Quoted from MeNaCeFiRe:

I think you should get a Rottendog MPU board... It should help I think

The order of the Wiki steps doesn't imply "greatest probability of failure" first. As it states, the order is a based on a combination of "easy to test" and "greatest probability of failure". And, it's ordered to help beginners be successful.

For this fellows problem, IMHO, the greatest probability issues are connectors at J101, J114, and J210 (fractured joints or tarnished male/female connections) or the thermistor in the power box. Reaching vacation planner when this all started is probably nothing more than a coincidence. But, I'd still suggest to him to work through the Wiki step-by-step. It doesn't cost anything but his time, and he'll learn something along the way.

I apologize if I underestimated your repair experience. It didn't come through in your initial posts.

BTW...welcome to PinSide. Always good to have experienced techs on board!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Big70...the sequence of my statements implied something other than my intent.
The first paragraph was aimed at these statements, which jump to a conclusion, without first examining easier (for a newb) and cheaper solutions.

Big70 said:Personally, from your description of how it started and has progressed to every time you hit both flippers, I'm pretty confident it's a bad BR2 bridge rectifier and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board.

Big70 said:a huge majority of the time, you problem is going to be a bad bridge rectifier BR2 and it's associated capacitor C5 on the driver board.

Both true statements based on experience. I have not told him to do that first, but letting him know often what is the problem that way if someone tells him to buy a new board or it'll be a $250 repair, that he can question that.

Quoted from Big70:

Check your J101 power connector on the driver board first. It can get heat damage like GI connectors sometimes. If it has obvious browning heat damage or is completely crispy, it needs to be replaced (male and female). If it looks good, wiggle that connector and see if that affects anything. If it does, you've got bad solder joints on the male plug. Could be the vibration of the game play is causing the reset.

That's my follow up statement to my first sentence, which was an opinion based on experience. He's told to first go look at the J101 connector.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Again, based on the description you gave, I'd start by replacing these and be extremely confident that'll fix the issue.

This is after I tell him to check the connector and after the connector is inspected and looks good, my opinion of what is typically causes the issue based on my experience, which is a nice cheap fix. Let's also look at my full sentence above in context:

Quoted from Big70:

Replacing those will clear up your issue probably 90% of the time, as long as your J101 is good. Again, based on the description you gave, I'd start by replacing these and be extremely confident that'll fix the issue.

After you check your connector and know it's good, that's where I'd start if it were my board.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

There are other less likely things on the driver board that can cause the reset issue, but I'd suggest dropping $8 - $10 in parts with shipping for the bridge and cap and spending 15 - 20 minutes replacing the parts and reinstalling the board if you're experienced. If you're not experienced at soldering, probably best to send it off or get with a local person that can repair it. It's an extremely common problem and shouldn't be a hard or expensive fix.

Again, reaffirming to him that the problem is usually a cheap fix and telling him how cheap it can be if he's able to do it himself, or get a local repair person to do it for him, rather than shipping a board off. In fact I tell him if he's not experienced at soldering, he's probably best to get a local guy or I guess you're forced to send off the board.

I appreciate you trying to look out for him, but I'm attempting to do the same thing. Your first paragraph came across like we were totally incorrect and leading him to a path to nowhere. I can appreciate him following a sequence as well and I've only glanced at Piniwiki. Yes, the plugs you mentioned could be a problem too. I've rarely ever had to mess with the thermistor. In fact, I may have 1 or 2 of those I carry around and can't even recall the last time I needed to replace one. I've got 30 or 40 of those bridges and caps though. I just started in the order of most common issues I know and see. I would go in a little different order than piniwiki too, but to each his own. I guess we all have different orders and in my world I'm trying to fix it in as little time as possible to move on to the next issue or game to be fixed. He also said he had read pinwiki and was confused. I just wanted to shed light to him as to what is commonly the problem since you've got clearly incorrect solutions being offered like buying a new CPU.

Thanks for the welcome and follow up post.

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