(Topic ID: 107701)

White Water - Reorchestration for Pinsound and Warren Davis

By Endprodukt

7 years ago


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  • 865 posts
  • 162 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by pinballM
  • Topic is favorited by 121 Pinsiders

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There are 865 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 18.
#301 6 years ago

I just wanted to let you guys know that I didn't do much since PPS contacted me. I don't see a reason in hurrying right now. This will be finished some time but I'm really not motivated right now and I have a lot of studiowork anyway so... still looking for a fiddle though.

#302 6 years ago

I met Chris Ganner at MPE this year. I'm on the left, he is in the middle, and my friend Freeman is on the right.

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#303 6 years ago

Cool, that guy is a genius.

#304 6 years ago

Effing PPS.

2 weeks later
#306 6 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

MAAAAN OVER BOARD!!!

Oh man, what a tease!

#308 6 years ago

outstanding! Can we be friends

Seriously, love what your doing with this. White Water is one of the best games ever(check my avatar ) This upgrade you are doing will take it over the mooon

#309 6 years ago
Quoted from gcp:

Oh man, what a tease!

A teaser is for something that get's actually released

Quoted from karl:

outstanding! Can we be friends
Seriously, love what your doing with this. White Water is one of the best games ever(check my Avatar ) This upgrade you are doing will take it over the mooon

Thanks dude, still hope that I will be able to release it to the public. If not... Germany isn't that far away and there is actually a ferry between Kiel and Oslo

#310 6 years ago

i restore currently my WH2O with a Nos playfield, can't wait to install my pinsound inside when my pinball will be ready to play! this one is my favorite

-2
#312 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballM:

i restore currently my WH2O with a Nos playfield, can't wait to install my pinsound inside when my pinball will be ready to play! this one is my favorite

It's not getting released.

#313 6 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

It's not getting released.

We'll see...

#314 6 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

A teaser is for something that get's actually released

That's why I didn't call it a teaser

Sounds awesome - but I think I was happier when I didn't know what I was missing!

11
#315 6 years ago

It needs to get released!

Rick needs to be the good guy here. Come on Rick!

There is Zip, Zilch, Nada that they could do about it. No damages and you aren't even in this country

#316 6 years ago

C'mon Rick, whaddaya think?

I'm with ya Ice.

3 weeks later
#317 6 years ago

solution: Bittorent

#318 6 years ago

Doesn't Roger Sharpe control all of the Williams IP? Is there a way to contact him or whoever controls the rights? Certainly a deal can be made here. The end product (tee hee) is so impressive that it would be crazy for this not to be released for all to enjoy.

#320 6 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

Doesn't Roger Sharpe control all of the Williams IP? Is there a way to contact him or whoever controls the rights? Certainly a deal can be made here. The end product (tee hee) is so impressive that it would be crazy for this not to be released for all to enjoy.

Talked to him. He couldn't help. Nice guy though.

#321 6 years ago

I'm picking up a White Water tomorrow, so now I'm sad this got put into limbo.

#322 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'm picking up a White Water tomorrow, so now I'm sad this got put into limbo.

It's not. Patience is the key.

#323 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'm picking up a White Water tomorrow, so now I'm sad this got put into limbo.

Thanks a lot Aurich, NOW you are sad, man that is pretty darn selfish of you, where was the outrage before!

I've got a nice long PM string with Rick.

Don't give it up Endprodukt, there is always a way

#324 6 years ago

I could finally motivate myself to do some work. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2932654/Multiball%20WH2O.mp3

I know the fiddle isn't perfect... it was a pain in the ass and the playstyle of a fiddle isn't easy to emulate... if even possible at all. I'm working on it though.

If ANYONE knows a professional fiddle player that might look into actually playing this... let me know.

#325 6 years ago

Sound great. Keep up the awesome work and I'll ask some music industry buds if there is a fiddler around.

#326 6 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

Sound great. Keep up the awesome work and I'll ask some music industry buds if there is a fiddler around.

Sounds awesome, with the fiddle (and Banjo?) it sounds a lot more 'fish tales like'. and I think that is great.

Keep plugging away Iceman.

#327 6 years ago

Well the original sounded like bluegrass to me. It's hard sometimes to tell what these midi instruments try to be

#328 6 years ago

Mate this is an absolutely amazing effort - those samples sound sensational!

Keep up the good work, and hopefully all of us can enjoy it one day.

2 weeks later
#329 6 years ago

Any more samples?

2 weeks later
#330 6 years ago

I produce music and have done my share of covering songs originally performed by others. I've dealt with publishers representing The Beatles, ABBA, Eurithmics and many others, so I know a thing or two about music copyright.

As far as I know German music / copyright law allows anybody to make a cover version of existing music. This is actually what the OP is doing. When commercially exploited the credits for music and lyrics should be the same (unless agreed on differently e.g. because new lyrics are added) and normally the current IP holders (the music publisher) would get their money through sold MP3s / CDs, radio airplay and live performances where money is paid to organisations as ASCAP / BIEM and such.

Here an interesting part: The original record company, most likely the master owner of the original, makes no money on cover versions as it is not their master recording which is being commercialized.

E.g: Let's say Madonna recorded a song called "Holiday" in 1985. Her record company paid the studio in which she recorded the song and the producer of the song as well. That would make the record company owner of the master recording. Madonna may have written the music and the lyrics, but she may have signed with a publishing company not related to her record company. Let's call the publisher ABC and the record company XYZ. The record company makes money everytime THEY sell a recording of the song in a record store, i-tunes and such. They make no money on any copies sold second hand, but got paid the first time that music carrier was sold. Publisher ABC also gets a cut of new CD / i-tunes sales, as that is part of the copyright law. The publisher also makes money when the song is played on radio or tv.

Now if I would make a new recording of that "Holiday" song, which anybody is allowed to do as long as they credit the original composers, would recordcompany XYZ still make money on that? No, not unless they would have signed my recording and it would be commercialized by them. If I would sign with another recordcompany that company would be the one commercializing my version and making money on it. Record company XYZ may not like that, but it's not their master recording, so nothing they can do about it. The only exception could be if my recording would sample a part of the original recording by Madonna. In that case I would be using the original master recording, and then recordcompany XYZ can forbid me to exploit the recording. Or they can offer to make a deal so they can get a piece of the action.

Long story short: if the OP is making cover versions of the songs and voicecalls in WH2O they become his property. Williams would still be the publisher (although it remains to be seen whether they actually are) and Chris Granner still be the composer. Williams would not own the new master recording and as such is not entitled to any profits from commercialisation of it. If OP sells his new recordings commercially he should credit the original composers of music and lyrics and on regular sound carriers these composers would then get a royalty. This may be different when it comes to game ROMs as this is a less traditional type of sound carrier. The only thing unclear in this situation is whether PPS represents the original master owner and/or the publisher. Once that is clear you know what your position is.

12
#331 6 years ago

Pps is not exactly known for being very transparent with what they actually own. As far as I understood pps wasn't sure about the copyright of the music.

Anyhow... To all the backers and people who wait: it will be finished. I didn't work on it for weeks though and don't know when I will be start working on it again. But there has been done so much already it would be a waste of time to not finish it.

It will not be available to the Pinsound community webpage though. Someone unknown uploaded my mixes for t2 and IJ. Most probably to do a good thing but it's actually not. First of there is no credit, second it puts me in a shitty situation, third it's old versions. I asked the administrator to remove my work but after explaining my standpoint he refused to do so.

#332 6 years ago

Keep up the good work!

#333 6 years ago

Congratulations on all your work so far on the three projects. I think it's fair to say you have the full support of the entire pinball community - bar one!

#334 6 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

The only thing unclear in this situation is whether PPS represents the original master owner and/or the publisher.

youll soon find out quick enough. The Rickster will be all over it like a fat kid on cake if theres any whiff of copyright.

great work tho, congrats...

#335 6 years ago

anyone know at this time if Pps is actually owner or not about the copyright of sound /music ?

#336 6 years ago

i see 2 Problems

when you re-use the Jingles of the original Rom and remaster it - may be this is in the Copyright package of the pin (PPS)

when you use the original Soundtrack + quotes from a CD or Bluray - this Copyright woud be at the Studio not PPS

so for PPS there is no legal way to offer such a package, the could only blame the fanboys, they are good in this.

#337 6 years ago

Basicaly it's not a remaster. I redo everything from the ground up. It's my work. It's just that someone else could make money out of it because it's close enough to the original although I don't see that Rick could do much about it - but I'm not the one paying money for a lawyer to find out.

#338 6 years ago

Unfortunately, like most of our laws in the US, the worst part about copyright law is that its too complex for the common man to understand. Don't get discouraged.

#339 6 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

I don't see that Rick could do much about it - but I'm not the one paying money for a lawyer to find out.

I'm pretty sure he can't, he's the kind of guy who is all bark and no bite.
I think we can all agree on that Rick is doing all he can just to make a buck on pinball, right? and when it comes down to it, it would cost his money grubbing little hands way to much trying to sue a guy in Europe. American laws apply to america, not the rest of the world.

1 month later
16
#340 6 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

Basicaly it's not a remaster. I redo everything from the ground up. It's my work. It's just that someone else could make money out of it because it's close enough to the original although I don't see that Rick could do much about it - but I'm not the one paying money for a lawyer to find out.

I'd be willing to fund the fight. I'm not a lawyer but I understand IP law and have dealt with it extensively. I'm also well-funded.
Email or PM me.

#341 6 years ago
Quoted from bstyles:

I'd be willing to fund the fight. I'm not a lawyer but I understand IP law and have dealt with it extensively. I'm also well-funded.
Email or PM me.

Likewise, I am a lawyer and there is zero chance Rick is going to employ attorneys to prosecute some copyright infringement on such a narrow issue with MINIMAL damages to him!

Yes he has to bark loudly, that's all it is.

Man Whitewater really needs this. Thanks for doing it.

#342 6 years ago

I really hope it will be possible to try this. It seams that many is anxious!

Keep up the good work.

#343 6 years ago

Wow, both iceman44 and bstyles are willing to both fund and argue for you if this would ever go to court! That's awesome, there's no reason for you not to move forward now and expose Rick for the fraud he is.

#344 6 years ago

We should just organize an anti-Rick legal fund. A kind of douche-bag shield for pinball fans for when he tries to throw his weight around.

#345 6 years ago

I can't wait to install Pinsound and this reorchestration in my White Water.

Any estimate on when you might have something available, Endprodukt?

#346 6 years ago

Thanks for the support.

I don't give any estimates on this one anymore. I start working on it when I feel like doing it. I think I worked too hard on IJ and t2 and need some other things in life to get back motivation.

But... It will be finished one day. Promised.

#347 6 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

We should just organize an anti-Rick legal fund. A kind of douche-bag shield for pinball fans for when he tries to throw his weight around.

Count me in!

#348 6 years ago
Quoted from webdiddy:

Wow, both iceman44 and bstyles are willing to both fund and argue for you if this would ever go to court! That's awesome, there's no reason for you not to move forward now and expose Rick for the fraud he is.

To be clear: I am not calling Rick a fraud or any other names. He's a businessman. I have respect his investments and the IP he owns.

As a pinball hobbyist, I'm thankful that Rick & PPS continue to provide us parts for our pins. He has the original tooling and without that, we'd all be missing a lot of large plastic parts. Should his investment be rewarded? Absolutely.

However, I do feel he has overstepped his bounds and legal authority on these ground-up sound re-orchestration projects. Here, I feel he is doing the hobby a sever disservice while at the same time harming his reputation and alienating a lot of enthusiasts.

That's why I'm willing to help. I'm actually hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that when both sides calm down and discuss this, there'd be away to 'make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.' If not, I feel confident that that these sound projects could proceed with or without Rick's blessing.

#349 6 years ago
Quoted from bstyles:

To be clear: I am not calling Rick a fraud or any other names. He's a businessman. I have respect his investments and the IP he owns.
As a pinball hobbyist, I'm thankful that Rick & PPS continue to provide us parts for our pins. He has the original tooling and without that, we'd all be missing a lot of large plastic parts. Should his investment be rewarded? Absolutely.
However, I do feel he has overstepped his bounds and legal authority on these ground-up sound re-orchestration projects. Here, I feel he is doing the hobby a sever disservice while at the same time harming his reputation and alienating a lot of enthusiasts.
That's why I'm willing to help. I'm actually hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that when both sides calm down and discuss this, there'd be away to 'make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.' If not, I feel confident that that these sound projects could proceed with or without Rick's blessing.

I agree with what you say.

However the problem with Rick, and his attacks on pinball enthusiasts, is rooted in his mindset whenever something Williams is concerned.

All he does is:

24
#350 6 years ago

PM received this morning, about 1am (someone was up late):

"Pinsider PPS has sent you a message via PinsideMail™:

WMS sounds on games are copyright WMS, are you seriously challenging that then read up on copyright and perhaps talk to the wms attorney. The only licensee for any WMS IP is PPS, so while we are probably willing to discuss with people ways to make things, we are not interested in people who decide that they can violate WMS IP, which we are contractually responsible to report to WMS, and they will take action on specific situations. Perhaps you should understand why anyone other than a licensee would be free to reproduce/remaster WMS game sounds?"

Rick --

See man, this is why the hobby you support tends to hate you. Always first with the threats... I was actually trying to defend you in my latest post, but you just proved what a D-bag you are by the tone of your PM to me. Now, putting aside your asshole-ness, let's get to some rather important questions:

Can you tell us if the sounds were (1) registered with the Copyright Office, (2) filed as a compilation, (3) when this alleged copyright was filed and approved, and (4) who is the owner of this alleged copyright?

If you could provide the copyright registration number, I'll have it ordered and then we can examine it for the purposes of possible litigation. You have my email.... send me a copy of the registration certificate. We'll start there.

Since you've told me to read up on copyright law, I have to assume you are already well-versed, and you must know that without a registered copyright, you're not entitled to statutory damages. Without one, at best you can try for actual damages.

Have you thought about how you're going to prove actual damages? I mean, how many original sound files would you sell if this re-orchestration were not available and competing? By my count... NONE. You don't sell the sound as a product. It's freely available for downloadable from your side http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/tech/wpcroms.html and ipdb.org.

And by change you do have a registered copyright for the game's sound compilation, you're still going to spend a minimum of $500k to defend your alleged copyright. I say let the fun begin.

There are 865 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 18.

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