(Topic ID: 107701)

White Water - Reorchestration for Pinsound and Warren Davis


By Endprodukt

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 666 posts
  • 145 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 86 days ago by yaksplat
  • Topic is favorited by 107 Pinsiders

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There are 666 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 14.
#251 4 years ago

OK but if i want to make personaly also my own music for my game with my favorite sound, why i will need to pay more the pinsound board ?, because if PPS need money, fees etc.. the board will be for sure.. more expensive ..

#252 4 years ago
Quoted from DeeGor:

Agreed. The pinsound project is pretty much done now. That is unless people start releasing files anonymously. Some of the files are already out there on the internet.

Guys. Don't overreact. As long as no one claims copyright issues with other mixes the board is everything but doomed. I'm in the focus because pps is a pinball company holding licenses. I don't think that Disney or universal or anyone is going into pinball forums to sue people because of copyright infringements.

#253 4 years ago

I hope you are right. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

#254 4 years ago

If Pinsound has a hard time releasing files RICK will look like the instigator here. Pinsound boards are used friendly, easy to install and update, and most of all breath new life into old machines with fantastic sounds and music.

As far as I can see there is actually lots of motivation for RICK to take a step back and stop trying to strong arm react. IT DOESN'T WORK. You just piss us off. How about actually talking to the Pinsound creators like they arent ass*oles and thieves.

#255 4 years ago

The funny thing is (I can't find the post) Rick stated he has never issed a c&d because he only has the exclusive rights to w/b ip. It's my understanding, and I may be wrong here, Williams has to enforce the ip rights. Who knows, it seems that area has been grayed intentionally. Kind of like pps making mmr only to amend that stance to it being a Chicago remake and pps the licensor once the road got a little rocky.

#256 4 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Who cares - they don't own the rights to the WMS IP ...

#257 4 years ago

You're not using WMS's IP - aren't you totally re-recording everything from scratch?

Sounds like you're free and clear to me.

God forbid PPS lose out on the dozen of dollars this project could generate for them.

#258 4 years ago

...death of apollo

lucifer-1.jpg

#260 4 years ago

Let's play what if.

What if Endprodukt finished the WH20 sound enhancements for his own use. Now, he's tired of the game. He sells me the game with the unique sound. I get the game here in the US, but what's this? I notice while in shipment someone opened the wrapping of the WH20 backbox and left the key in. Odd. I set it up and all works just fine. Whew! I then notice that on bittorent someone has posted the unique sound file for WH20. Those shipping rascals! I wish I knew who did it so I could turn them in to PPS. I let Rick know which shipping company I used because I'm honest like this, so he can pursue best he can. I even give him an email address and phone number. Bummer. The genie is out of the bottle. A shame the community now has Wh20 unlicensed sound files.

#261 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You're not using WMS's IP - aren't you totally re-recording everything from scratch?
Sounds like you're free and clear to me.
God forbid PPS lose out on the dozen of dollars this project could generate for them.

The arrangements aren't free and clear. There's really no legal ambiguity about that part. Just be nice if there was a creative solution for this. There's no money involved and no value lost for Williams. And maybe there's a way everyone could win in the end with a little cooperation.

#262 4 years ago

The whole situation is utter horseshit. Here's what comes to mind...

scroogemcduck.jpg

Oh...I'm sorry. That probably wasn't licensed either. Silly me.

#263 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The arrangements aren't free and clear. There's really no legal ambiguity about that part. Just be nice if there was a creative solution for this. There's no money involved and no value lost for Williams. And maybe there's a way everyone could win in the end with a little cooperation.

Do we know that PPS owns the compositions?

#264 4 years ago

I want to say thank you to all the community members. I'm overwhelmed by all the condolence.

PLEASE understand that I can't provide the files via PM or on any other way. I'm very sorry but I still hope this could have a happy end for us all.

#265 4 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

Do we know that PPS owns the compositions?

PPS doesn't own anything. Williams owns the compositions. Rick's just a middle man, he's really not the key party in any of this except as someone who could be a reasonable go between. Which he doesn't seem all that interested in doing apparently. But who knows, all we're seeing are a couple forum posts.

#266 4 years ago

How does this kill pinsound? Can't pinsound still sell their Amps

#267 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

How does this kill pinsound? Can't pinsound still sell their Amps

Sure. But the thought by some is that without freely available high quality re-orchestrations, their usefulness is diminished, along w/ potential sales.

#268 4 years ago

One possible solution: ( for the WMS only licences ( not für Lucas Arts / Disney , Fox, Paramount or whatever related sounds )
PPS should attach a pricetag on the White Water sounds (per example) and the starts a Kickstart or other crowdfunding campaign.
If the goal is hit, the Files are free for EVERYONE tu use in their machine

#269 4 years ago

Total BS,
Keep up the good work.
He cant stop you releasing your own work.

#270 4 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

Total BS,
Keep up the good work.
He cant stop you releasing your own work.

Actually he can. His word alone of course won't do anything, he'd have to actually get a lawyer involved on behalf of Williams. But the law is on his side.

#271 4 years ago

you have nothing to fear...
(just look into these)

pps-1.jpg

#272 4 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

Total BS,
Keep up the good work.
He cant stop you releasing your own work.

Well... I wouldn't be so sure about that but we'll find out. Copyright is a very very complex topic.

#273 4 years ago

if I hum/whistle the music and put it out for download, will I get a cease and desist?

#274 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

PPS doesn't own anything. Williams owns the compositions. Rick's just a middle man, he's really not the key party in any of this except as someone who could be a reasonable go between. Which he doesn't seem all that interested in doing apparently. But who knows, all we're seeing are a couple forum posts.

Do we know if Williams owns the compositions then? I would presume so but I wonder what the contracts with the employees who actually composed the music say. A blanket contact that Williams owns any and all IP created by the employee would probably end it but you never really know. It's pretty common these days for people to claim infringment when they don't even own the copyright in the first place.

#275 4 years ago

If he's doing re-orchestrations and not selling them, how is this not Fair Use?

#276 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

If he's doing re-orchestrations and not selling them, how is this not Fair Use?

Fair use is a pretty complex determination. Whether the infringement is for "commercial purposes" is only one of the factors the Court looks at.

#277 4 years ago

I don't think pps is willing to spend thousands of dollars trying to sue a small time dev on another continent.

I believe there's also something called global licensing, and from what I hear something like that costs so much money only big companies like sony, apple and so on can afford it, I could be wrong though.

People in the us easily forget the us laws don't apply to he rest of the world.
I'm pretty sure that if I wanted I could make any williams product I like and suing me from the us would be pointless because it would be such a complicated matter.

There is a reason the Chinese marked is flooded with counterfeit product of everything, if it was an easy task to stop bootlegs all companies would do it.

#278 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Rick, please take a deep breath, or this is going to be one of those threads where you end up looking like the bad guy again.

....and too late.

You're way more diplomatic than I am. lol

#279 4 years ago
Quoted from oopsallberrys:

if I hum/whistle the music and put it out for download, will I get a cease and desist?

actually, here in germany, if you sing a copyrighted song with the kids in the kidergarten you have to pay a fee to a institution called "gema"..

#280 4 years ago

i understand that Rick spend a lot of money in WMS licences and is not the messiah, so he wants to get money back.
But rRck should think about the fanbase, which not only spend thousand of hours with pinball playing and evolving but also buy licenced spare parts, manuals an eventually new machines.
he should´nt underestimate the power of the ones that keeps his business running.

enough.. Rick, put a price tag under this topic and than let´s see what the community is willing to pay..

#282 4 years ago

Pinsound is a blank slate.

It is not a copyright violation until someone puts something illegal on it.

-

A CD-R is a blank slate, until someone puts a bootleg G&R concert on it.

#283 4 years ago

Can't knock Rick for protecting his investment. Maybe the sides will come to a solution.

#284 4 years ago

I love what you're doing here OP. That being said, follow the ways of good ol Weird Al Yankovic and....make a parody of the Whitewater soundtrack. Have a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody#Music

So here's the deal...your work is a joke to me , it's FUNNY that you are making fun of the voices and sounds, and the whole thing sounds like a big parody to me!

As long as that's the basis, you're good to go! A la SNL using actual logos in their skits! Parody baby!

Also, I don't know who Rick is, but he sounds awesome...

#285 4 years ago

The George Armstrong Custer of pinball public relations, lurching galantly from one glorious victory to another, vainly searching the horizon for Little Bighorn.

#286 4 years ago

If PPS was smart they'd PAY Endprodukt to allow them to sell the files on their website or come up with a profit sharing arrangement. Win win situation. Endprodukt gets paid for his hard work and PPS get's a return on their investment.

#287 4 years ago

I assume that it's freely posting the mp3 and wav files that is/was the issue, correct. Nothing to stop him from doing what he's doing. Nothing to stop him from posting about his process, his progress, talking about what he does, etc. I would think he could even do youtube videos of the sounds in-game, etc. It's the providing these on the download site and linking from his dropbox (the distrubution) that was the issue.

I hope you'll keep going. Don't have this title, but enjoy seeing these projects very much!

#288 4 years ago

Every time this thread bumps to the top I hang my head in disgust. Such an excellent concept squashed. Bad year for some great innovations.

#289 4 years ago
Quoted from Industen:

Every time this thread bumps to the top I hang my head in disgust. Such an excellent concept squashed. Bad year for some great innovations.

Yes...let's just keep making pins with monochrome displays and shitty sounds while we all carry tiny phones that you can watch movies on and tell us where in the world we are at a given moment. It'll help us remember the good old days.

#290 4 years ago

Ouch Rick

#291 4 years ago

Yes...let's just keep making pins with monochrome displays and shitty sounds while we all carry tiny phones that you can watch movies on and tell us where in the world we are at a given moment. It'll help us remember the good old days.

I agree

15
#292 4 years ago

PPS needs to stop chasing pennies and start going after dollars.

Concentrate on reproducing the machines that we all know people want, and stop being a dick to the enthusiasts that make pinball great.

#293 4 years ago

I read this thread with great interest as a new PinSound owner.

I think I am right in saying that if you own the actual pinball machine and the ROMs inside it, you already own the copyright licence to use the music within it. That is how copyright works, the original creator/owner owns the copyright and issues a licence for the use of it. So that must have been done when the machine was originally sold for PPS to have a claim now. The original copyright licence must be automatically transferable to any new owner, else PPS would have to sue every current owner to assert their rights.

Here in the UK we are allowed to transfer music between formats legally. So you can take a CD and make it into an mp3 for your iPod. It follows therefore that you can take the sounds from the ROMs and put them into a WAV. Re-orcastration would be covered by the parody clauses in the same legislation, so that is also fine. It might be worth checking German copyright law.

As long as the person using the files owns the original machine, I'm not sure if I see the problem.

Cheers

Cris

#294 4 years ago

Another quick thought on this.

If you are in contact with the original composer of the music, check with him to see what the copyright situation was back when it was written, was he a freelancer or working directly for the pinball company?

If he was freelance then he will still own the copyright, and maybe able to issue you a new licence for the use of the score. Then if it's a complete re-orcastration you are not using any PPS IP or copyright as you are not even using their hardware for playback.

I got really excited when I found out about the PinSound project, and is sad to see the technology not being supported and encouraged by PPS. Why kill a potential opportunity before it's even begun?

Cheers

Cris

#295 4 years ago

The story is not over but this is a very very very complex topic. All the arguments make sense but I doubt they have any impact on the actual copyright situation.

In the meantime : I'm trying to find a VSTi that sounds like a fiddle. Very hard to do so that it comes close as it needs slides up and down and other effects. Not much is happening right now. Just very small steps so understand that this situation has been a huge demotivation for me and I need to find the spirit of the river to give it back to me (the motivation I mean )

#296 4 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

this situation has been a huge demotivation for me

I can totally understand that.

I don't actually own this machine (I wish I did now) but as a fellow PinSound user your efforts for the community are greatly appreciated. This is a fascinating area of pinball and there is a chance to really improve on already amazing machines. So keep up the hard work in the background, don't let one lot of stick in the muds stop you from achieving a personal goal for yourself. Worry about the distribution once the master piece is complete!

Cheers

Cris

#297 4 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

I need to find the spirit of the river to give it back to me (the motivation I mean )

Finishing up a project is always the most difficult, but it's your job to finish the project now. And when you finish the job eventually you will find out that it it was not the motivation you needed. It is the fantastic job and talent you have that made it all fun and worth finishing.

If you may be able to share your project in the end, you will get the credits it deserves of other people enjoying what you have made for their WH2O. If not, everybody will be happy to know that your machine will run it anyway. So there's your Spirit of the River.
Viel Spaß

#298 4 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

In the meantime : I'm trying to find a VSTi that sounds like a fiddle. Very hard to do so that it comes close as it needs slides up and down and other effects. Not much is happening right now. Just very small steps so understand that this situation has been a huge demotivation for me and I need to find the spirit of the river to give it back to me (the motivation I mean )

Have you looked at this? Maybe that could work out.

http://8dio.com/instrument/misfit-fiddle-vst-au-aax-2/

I also think there is a folk violin in the standard NI Komplete if you have that.

Axl

#299 4 years ago
Quoted from Axl:

Have you looked at this? Maybe that could work out.
http://8dio.com/instrument/misfit-fiddle-vst-au-aax-2/
I also think there is a folk violin in the standard NI Komplete if you have that.
Axl

Haha, that misfit fiddle is funny. "Rule #1: We made sure that the person playing the sampled instrument never played it before. Like... never...ever."

I don't think it will work

#300 4 years ago

I noticed the post from PPS about using their IP was removed from the pinsound community boards. Did something change with PPS's stance on this issue or did the forum owners decide to just get rid of the post?

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