What do you mean by a relationship with Pinsound and "the right path"?

Do you mean creating a new relationship between PPS and Pinsound would be the path to allowing the work the OP is doing?

In the meantime man just keep doing what you were doing. No reason to let the fun get sucked out of the room. I don't even own a White Water, I was just enjoying seeing what you were doing, even if it had no direct benefit for me.

Sorry OP - I wasn't trying to derail your thread, I was just confused by the way the other post was worded. You've done an excellent job and put in a lot of time on this, I hope it works out for the better somehow.

Who cares - they don't own the rights to the WMS IP ...

pinsound is making the money it appears ...

This really sucks. I was looking forward to this. Why don't you try to create something original for machines and sell it to the community. You have great talent that shouldn't go to waste. With generic machines like WH20 it shouldn't be a problem. It isn't a TV or movie based pin. Bummed

Guys ... I'm all for recreating/remixing/remastering, but the attitude of the original poster when I indicated that this was not ok without permission was not ok. If people want to work with us then we will work with them, but better to ask before doing things, than challenging our rights (which are pretty well documented thru the years) when confronted. Again, we are interested in working with people.

Rick, please take a deep breath, or this is going to be one of those threads where you end up looking like the bad guy again.

Endprodukt obviously is proud that many of his pinball hero have given him a thumbs up in his passionate project. We ALL care when someone is working on what we all love - pinball.

Why not use his creative powers to work towards a goal that benefits the both of you? How about the sound for Whitewater 2.0?

Warren Davis is not going to be alive forever.......

I too hope you keep your dream alive and proceed Dude.
You seem to be a passionate HOBBYIST and not a profiteer.
IP is such a hot topic these days and there is NOTHING intellectual about it!
Just money hungry businesses who keep spitting the dummy every time they see that some coin could be made? Pathetic.

Typical.....why does the arrogant approach have to be taken first up. Sure PPS must get sick of defending theirs and the WMS position, but why alienate people straight away?? Especially in this instance where someone is really working hard and at something he clearly enjoys as a hobby. Perhaps a friendly approach might produce a different outcome in the future. It's not the first time this has happened either!

Both sides are getting heated and the losers in the situation are all the ppl that love pinball and the games that endprodukt is enhancing. Would be great to see a reset on the whole situation where cool heads prevail and we see this project get back on track. I suggest a phone call between the 2 of you with a way to resolve the situation so all parties involved can get what they want. If it's a money thing, figure out a price and a distribution method and let the customers contribute. A breather and a phone call would probably fix things and prevent a waste of all the effort by endprodukt. Looking forward to a resolution. Go for it guys.

Rick - Agree with Vids recommendation. Please take a deep breath and consider creative alternatives to allowing this project to come to fruition.

OP - Awesome work my friend. Please consider a discussion with Rick to allow this project to continue.

The disappointing thing is the OP is not trying to profit from his improvements at all. Why not consider allowing it to proceed and when complete, distributed through PPS website as a thank you (still free) to customers with a purchase - with mention of OP time spent on bringing new life to WH20? Then if PPS decides to re-run WH20, it's now more attractive with the enhanced sounds as well.

Last note. I'm glad Stern isn't going after pinball browser where owners want to alter sound to preferences. Rick, please reconsider your stance on this one. This is not a plastic set, decal, or translight. Not everything needs $$$ profit. Let some areas be grey for the sake of the hobby.

Yeah, i get it. I know you aren't in this for the money. But some people are and it's part of their business so I get that side too. As a WH2O owner, I was really looking forward to adding this to my machine. Thank you for all your work. The audio clips you shared sounded amazing. Like I said, I just hope both of you can come to an agreement. It benefits you in continuing a hobby that you are passionate about, it benefits PPS if he gets a cut or at least gets to give his blessing to proceed, and it damn well benefits owners of the pins that you provide this reorchestration for. Thanks again and good luck. Your work will be, not was, amazing.

Has anybody ever looked into what PPS actually owns? Do they even own the compositions?

Rick, could you grant permission/license to continue the project as long as you retain ownership of any resulting content that is sourced from the original tracks? This would be a great start for Whitewater 2.0 and certainly help drive interest in it...

-Jay

Definitely agree that the right attitude when it comes to these matters is key.

Keep up the spirit! You do a great job.

PPS should stick to their own forum. I've said it before, I'll say it again, pps/Rick is a wolf in sheep's clothing parading policing around here.

The notion of admonishing the op's demeanor by PPS is rich.

Sorry op. What you were doing is fantastic and a benefit to the community. How much innovation has been stiffled in the community in the name of ip rights. Surely a tactfull (I know that's a stretch) solution could have been brokered.

From everything I hear, Rick/PPS is reasonable with licensing. Could make the reorchestration a product and sell it. Or pinsound could pay per board sold a flat fee to cover all WMS games. He kind of bad to protect his IP in order to maintain them.

I'd pay for the reorchestratuon in a heartbeat.

LOL. The answer is? No.

I'd just continue with this, much the way CCC has continued. There are ways.

why should they (pinsound) ?
they (pinsound) only sell a hardware platform which allowes you to create your OWN sounds.
PPS is not involved in this in any way.

If PPS wants to make money with their licences, they should produce something valuable.

rick_pps.jpg

This is so upsetting to me! Endprodukt, you have been working on something for WH20 that I have been so excited to add to my personal machine. I hope some day I will be able to listen to the work you have done while playing.

Keep working on it and release the resulting files via a torrent when you're done. Nothing at all can be done about it.

What a shame, I agree with tamoore, keep going!

So exciting to follow this project and hope to see it in my Whitewater one day. Thanks again for all your efforts.

Thanks for all the hard work Endprodukt.

Rick @ PPS is obligated to protect Williams IP's. This isnt a gigantic culture, so tread lightly IP guys, please don't stifle innovation. Rick has a reputation for being aggressive with folks who don't share HIS visions, so I can imagine how this original contact went down. But he also is ingrained in this subculture, and has worked to get williams stuff out.
'Private' market for my pin needs is fine with me. I will find a way to 'survive' without you, but work together and we won't have to.

pinsound is a fantastic new product. Lots of potential. Let's work on this together gang!

Roger is known for his uncanny ability to settle IP disputes between WMS and other parties. He has served as CGC's main interface to WMS during the development of MMR. I think he is your best bet. Just tell him everything up front and he may be able to work something out for you.

Not trying to add fuel to the flame, but it would be interesting to know if any copyrights that are claimed to be protected are REGISTERED.

If the copyright is not federally registered, the copyright holder can't pursue statutory damages.

Without statutory damages, the holder would only be able to pursue actual damages.

Actual damages would be pretty hard to document if there are no revenue generated from the sale of the new product, and since the old product is no longer sold, there is no loss of revenue.

If they knowingly try to pursue a statutory damages claim, then you can file a counterclaim for abuse of process, and if you win, go back after them for malicious prosecution.

An IP lawsuit will costs both sides upward of $20k per month for at least 18 months in federal court. In this case I would expect that it will cost the plaintiff a lot more since he'd have to retain local representation in a foreign country.

As a businessman, I respect that Rick made an investment, however, there should be room for the little guys in this hobby that are just trying to make it better. No doubt that Rick is seen publicly as a bully and, even worse, a hindrance to the hobby. That's the real shame, because I'm sure he got into the hobby for the same reason as the rest of us... Reminds me of Anakin Skywalker.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer (but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

I'm sure Endprodukt does not want to enter the German legal system to test some case of IP law.

You can do whatever you want to do for your own entertainment; you don't have to worry about any licensing.

But if you want to distribute a song you re-recorded, even for free, you have to pay a fee to the license holder.

For instance, if your church band re-records "Jesus Christ Superstar", they will have to pay the standard 9.1 cent licensing fee for each CD or MP3 they distribute; even if they give the song away for free.

Of course, open minds are the smartest. Rick could arrange for Endprodukt to have a limited license - but in trade for the recordings so the audio could be used in the future for Whitewater 2.0

Both sides win.

Endprodukt gets a license and continues his work without looking over his shoulder.

Rick gets $100,000 worth of music and sound production for free, and comes out smelling like a saint.

Remind me not to buy anything from this PPS company.

Would you exercise copyright on your re-recordings? I really appreciate your passion on a game I love and hope you can come to a licensing agreement with WMS where you, WMS, and pinball win.

Disappointing for sure, but I understand where both sides are coming from. I'm no lawyer, but I think it is not just the SELLING that is against IP law but also DISTRIBUTING, even for free. If PPS wanted to produce this product and sell it in the future, the current situation would hurt his ability to do so. That is likely why most judges would side with the IP holder. I am sure PPS paid a lot of money for the licensing and you can't blame a guy for wanting to protect that.

Still though - seems like a great opportunity for PPS and if he were smart he would find a way to work with the OP.

Here is a chat room full of people that would buy this product. Come on guys - work something out where all parties win!

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding in this situation.
The only company that could make money here is Pinsound.
And NOT with the Sounds Endprodukt has produced but with their own universal usable piece of hardware.
They sell it without any licenced sounds and music (as i know, you can download user made sounds, but these are not part of the sold product)
, so there is no need for them to pay anyone anything.
On the other hand, the work of Endproduct has no copyprotection, so what would the correct price for him to pay to PPS
to be allowed to give the sounds into the public?

If Pinsound pays a fee to PPS for every Sound board (and so to Stern also) just for the possibility that someone could resample licenced stuff, what about those who made something complete licence free?
Next step, what about the licence holders of the sounds and music from themes like Addams, Dirty Harry, Star Wars, Terminator, Indy, Startrek and so on?
Who pays them? PPS in this case, for they basically allowed (by taking money) that someone rethemed one of the above pins?
The ONLY way for PPS to make money out of this is to BUY tge pinsound company and sell this product for their own.

And let the community make with this what they want.

Let's face it though, once it becomes clear that these upgraded soundtracks cannot be done sales of Pinsound are going to tank. That's why most people want it.

Agreed. The pinsound project is pretty much done now. That is unless people start releasing files anonymously. Some of the files are already out there on the internet.

rick_ppl2.jpg