(Topic ID: 122992)

Whirlwind System 11 A/C issue

By Oldgoat

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Oldgoat
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#1 9 years ago

Just got my first System 11 and am coming from an EM, so I'm drinking from the firehose. When I got the game there were two obvious issues. One was a portion of the backbox lighting was out (I haven't addressed this). The second was the right top jet did not work. The coil controlling that jet was cooked. Coil sleeve melted into it. So, I replaced the coil (interestingly, there was a replacement coil sitting in the box, so I guess the previous owner had tried to replace it but gave up). The other issue was a transistor (Q73) controlling the coil was toast, so I replaced it as well. Now, when I run the diagnostics, the jet works fine. However, when I run the A/C tests, the C side has an issue and displays err. I notice that for every C-side test the jet fires and holds. When I manually advance to the next test (A-side) the coil releases, hit advance to the next C-side test and the coil locks, and so on. Based on other threads, other sites and product documentation, I suspected an issue on the Aux power board. Transistors seem fine; however, there are two banks of eight diodes on the board. The lower set are the even numbers from 32-46. These check out fine, reading in one direction. The upper set, odd numbers 31-45, all seem to be bad in that they read in both directions. While I am new to System 11 and not the brightest bulb in the box, I figured that all 8 going south is probably not a coincidence but either a result of the aforementioned coil /transistor or something else upstream that has a problem. One other bit of info, is that I get a momentary short error message when starting up the diagnostics.

Given this, thoughts on possible culprits and things to check? Or do you think replacement of the coil and transistor likely solved this problem?
Thanks

#2 9 years ago

The jet going on every time the C-side test is on indicates the jet is locking on. Every time the A/C relay is set to "A", the power for the "A" coils is on and the "C" side is off, when it sets to "C" then it is the opposite - 'C" is on while "A" is off. So it would seem that your A/C relay is working correctly, but the jet's coil ground path is always on, so at every coil test that turns on the C side power turns on the coil.

Troubleshoot this as a locked on coil. First run a switch test to make certain a stuck switch isn't holding it on. Disconnect the special solenoids connector 1P19 from the MPU while the coil is stuck on, if the coil releases, you know the problem is on the MPU board...if it doesn't your problem is likely a playfield/wiring short. Pg 33 of the manual shows what to test for the special solenoid logic.

#3 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The jet going on every time the C-side test is on indicates the jet is locking on. Every time the A/C relay is set to "A", the power for the "A" coils is on and the "C" side is off, when it sets to "C" then it is the opposite - 'C" is on while "A" is off. So it would seem that your A/C relay is working correctly, but the jet's coil ground path is always on, so at every coil test that turns on the C side power turns on the coil.
Troubleshoot this as a locked on coil. First run a switch test to make certain a stuck switch isn't holding it on. Disconnect the special solenoids connector 1P19 from the MPU while the coil is stuck on, if the coil releases, you know the problem is on the MPU board...if it doesn't your problem is likely a playfield/wiring short. Pg 33 of the manual shows what to test for the special solenoid logic.

Thanks. I'll give it a try and report back

#4 9 years ago

The "One was a portion of the backbox lighting was out" is probably a burned connector for the GI at the backbox interconnect board. Also check the fuses on this board to see if they are good.

Download the manual here, it has the schematics:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2765/Williams_1990_Whirlwind_Operations_Manual_Br_With_Schematics.pdf

Also, here is the repair guide for Williams System 9-11:
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

#5 9 years ago

Man I hate being stupid...you'd think I'd be used to it by now, but I'm not.
The switches seem to work fine, so I was on to check the 1P19 connector. I know that these are also listed in the manual (the 1P prefix) and can see it in the schematic; however, for the life of me I can't figure out exactly where/what these are and how one goes about disconnecting it. I thought perhaps it was the top two connectors of 1J19 since the wire colors matched the schematic but that doesn't seem to be the case if it is, it had no effect (i.e., the right top jet coil did not release)

#6 9 years ago
Quoted from Mrjamma:

The "One was a portion of the backbox lighting was out" is probably a burned connector for the GI at the backbox interconnect board. Also check the fuses on this board to see if they are good.
Download the manual here, it has the schematics:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2765/Williams_1990_Whirlwind_Operations_Manual_Br_With_Schematics.pdf
Also, here is the repair guide for Williams System 9-11:
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

Thanks, I had the schematic and another site of Sys 11 games but had forgotten about the pinwiki. I'll attack the lights once I get the C side of the A/C issue sorted out. Thanks

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Man I hate being stupid...you'd think I'd be used to it by now, but I'm not.
The switches seem to work fine, so I was on to check the 1P19 connector. I know that these are also listed in the manual (the 1P prefix) and can see it in the schematic; however, for the life of me I can't figure out exactly where/what these are and how one goes about disconnecting it. I thought perhaps it was the top two connectors of 1J19 since the wire colors matched the schematic but that doesn't seem to be the case if it is, it had no effect (i.e., the right top jet coil did not release)

No problem. Refer to page 32 in the manual, the solenoid table. If you look for the jet solenoids in the table (around 3/4 way down the table) you will see they are all special solenoids, and the wire colors are all listed in the 4th column, "wire color" along with pin numbers to the CPU board in the fifth column. All the special solenoids are on connector number 1P19-X where "X" is the pin number. The right upper jet bumper is BLU-ORN (blue with an orange stripe) corresponding to pin #3 of 1P19. Hopefully that will help you understand.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

No problem. Refer to page 32 in the manual, the solenoid table. If you look for the jet solenoids in the table (around 3/4 way down the table) you will see they are all special solenoids, and the wire colors are all listed in the 4th column, "wire color" along with pin numbers to the CPU board in the fifth column. All the special solenoids are on connector number 1P19-X where "X" is the pin number. The right upper jet bumper is BLU-ORN (blue with an orange stripe) corresponding to pin #3 of 1P19. Hopefully that will help you understand.

Yes, I can find everything. My issue is around understanding where 1P19 is located on the CPU board. I can locate the wire, which is located at 1J19, pin 3 (at least this is what I think it is called). Is this the same location as 1P19-3? Or does 1P19 refer to some other location? It may just be a nomenclature issue.

#9 9 years ago

Often used interchangeably, J refers to the jack, and P refers.to the plug. Just a nomenclature thing.

#10 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Often used interchangeably, J refers to the jack, and P refers.to the plug. Just a nomenclature thing.

Thanks! you have helped restore a portion of my remaining sanity.

If I disconnect J19 block the jet bumper releases. So based on the initial response, this would suggest my problem is somewhere on the main board. I'll see if I can decipher the schematics to find the offending component(s)

#11 9 years ago

Special Solenoid Logic Flow.
For Special Solenoids (SS), here is the logic flow. This is useful to know if you are having a problem with a special solenoid.

For right upper jet bumper:
SSx: 6821 PIA to 7407 to 7402 to 2N4401 to TIP122
SSc: U41 (pin 19) to U49 to U45 to Q72 to Q73

s11ssol1.gifs11ssol1.gif

#12 9 years ago

I saw this on another site but, alas, it really isn't helping me much. Per my earlier post, Q73 was transistor I replaced. Q72 is the transistor in front of that. Seems to test ok, but do you recommend I replace it? I'm not sure how to trouble shoot an issue with U41, U49 or U45. I know it says pin 19 for U41 but beyond that?

#13 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I saw this on another site but, alas, it really isn't helping me much. Per my earlier post, Q73 was transistor I replaced. Q72 is the transistor in front of that. Seems to test ok, but do you recommend I replace it? I'm not sure how to trouble shoot an issue with U41, U49 or U45. I know it says pin 19 for U41 but beyond that?

First, you would look for the pulse signal at pin 19 of U41. If you have the pulse, then we could troubleshoot where it is getting "lost" at between the PIA and output. If you don't have a pulse, then likely the PIA is the culprit. If it were anything further upstream you'd probably have more symptoms.

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

First, you would look for the pulse signal at pin 19 of U41. If you have the pulse, then we could troubleshoot where it is getting "lost" at between the PIA and output. If you don't have a pulse, then likely the PIA is the culprit. If it were anything further upstream you'd probably have more symptoms.

OK, so the proper process/sequence is? Go into Diagnostic mode and advance to the A/C testing, DMM set to check DCV, red on pin 19, black on ground, hit the advance to initiate the A/C and I should see ? Just a quick pulse, then back to zero?
Thanks

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

OK, so the proper process/sequence is? Go into Diagnostic mode and advance to the A/C testing, DMM set to check DCV, red on pin 19, black on ground, hit the advance to initiate the A/C and I should see ? Just a quick pulse, then back to zero?
Thanks

You got it.

#16 9 years ago

So here is what I get. Do a coil test. Every A side works fine. Every C side, top right jet locks. Voltage is 10 on an A side coil test and 0 on a C side. This seems backwards to me so I may be doing something wrong; although the jet does fire, so who knows. A/C side test shows same, i.e., 10v on A-side, 0 on C. Another interesting tidbit. If you hit the credit button on the inside of the door, the right sling fires, but no credits. Hmm?

#17 9 years ago

Well, I assume I must have a short somewhere. When I turn it on, the top right jet locks, the Q73 transistor gets hot enough to fry bacon (probably need to replace that again). Are there any typical places/usual culprits to look for a short on one of these 'special' solenoid circuits?
Thanks

#18 9 years ago

To summarize current state. Turn machine on, right jet immediately locks. Disconnect J19p3 and the bumper releases. Voltage at J19p3 is .5. Voltage at pin 19 U41 is steady at 10. I am afraid to go into diagnostics with the coil locked and the transistor U73 cooking.

#19 9 years ago

When fixing special solenoid transistors, save yourself some time and always replace the 7402 along with the two associated transistors. I find it bad about 50% of the time anyway, and if its not, then now its socketed for the next time a special solenoid blows.

Also something else is slightly wring here. A special solenoid does not have its power turned off and on with the A/C relay. Special solenoids are #17-#22 and always have power (and alway have switches active during gameplay and in test mode). The A side coils are #1-8 and are switched back and forth with the C side flashers.

Now whirlwind has more than 3 pops, but I don't recall if all 6 pops are special or if the slings are still part of the special solenoid circuit.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Voltage at pin 19 U41 is steady at 10. I am afraid to go into diagnostics with the coil locked and the transistor U73 cooking.

10? 10 what, DC volts? This point should only be 5 VDC. Are you certain you are referencing ground?? You can leave 1P19 disconnected to save the transistor while you troubleshoot.

Quoted from kbliznick:

Also something else is slightly wrpng here. A special solenoid does not have its power turned off and on with the A/C relay.

Right, it doesn't make sense to me either, but this coil is locking on and you have to start somewhere, logically I would start by troubleshooting this as a locked on coil.

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

When fixing special solenoid transistors, save yourself some time and always replace the 7402 along with the two associated transistors. I find it bad about 50% of the time anyway, and if its not, then now its socketed for the next time a special solenoid blows.
Also something else is slightly wring here. A special solenoid does not have its power turned off and on with the A/C relay. Special solenoids are #17-#22 and always have power (and alway have switches active during gameplay and in test mode). The A side coils are #1-8 and are switched back and forth with the C side flashers.
Now Whirlwind has more than 3 pops, but I don't recall if all 6 pops are special or if the slings are still part of the special solenoid circuit.

Thanks, I will replace the 7402. As for the special ones, per the Solenoid table on the inside back cover of the manual, the 6 are left upper jet, left kicker, right upper jet, right kicker, top lower jet and right ramp down, so it is an odd mix. However, if you look at page 95, a schematic labelled Controlled, Special & Switched Solenoids, it shows two groups of 4. One at 50V containing Ramp Diverter, Left kicker, cellar kickback and right kicker. And another group of 4 at 25V with Left top jet, right top jet, lower top jet and right ramp entry down. Everything else I can find suggest only 6 special. But who knows.

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

10? 10 what, DC volts? This point should only be 5 VDC. Are you certain you are referencing ground?? You can leave 1P19 disconnected to save the transistor while you troubleshoot.

Right, it doesn't make sense to me either, but this coil is locking on and you have to start somewhere, logically I would start by troubleshooting this as a locked on coil.

Well, I'm not sure of anything at this point, but I believe I am referencing ground and I'm getting 19 VDC. I'll double check once again!

Is it accurate to assume that the issue is on the MPU and not the auxiliary power board?

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Well, I'm not sure of anything at this point, but I believe I am referencing ground and I'm getting 19 VDC. I'll double check once again!
Is it accurate to assume that the issue is on the MPU and not the auxiliary power board?

Set meter at DCV and black (negative) probe on either the metallic pad of the board mounting screw or on the ground braid, with red (positive) on pin 19 should see +5 VDC, this should drop to zero briefly when the solenoid is activated. Another test would be to choose another correctly working special solenoid circuit and test the same way. If you are doing something wrong with measuring this should become more obvious then.

The issue won't be the aux pwr board. The reason is the aux power board supplies continuous power to the special solenoids (which is the pop that you have stuck on) and on-off power relays for A and C coils. Regardless of the presence of power, you still need the grounding path active to pull in the coil...and since the pop is on all the time, there is an active ground path somewhere. You pulled the 1P19 connector and the solenoid released, so the ground path is being completed at the CPU board

Now the test for the logic condition of pin 19 off the PIA reading +19VDC is highly questionable. If working correctly (seeing +5VDC and a negative going pulse only when active) then the problem would be likely between the PIA and output transistor. If not working correctly, then some upstream logic problem holding the circuit on such as bad PIA, etc...

#24 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Set meter at DCV and black (negative) probe on either the metallic pad of the board mounting screw or on the ground braid, with red (positive) on pin 19 should see +5 VDC, this should drop to zero briefly when the solenoid is activated. Another test would be to choose another correctly working special solenoid circuit and test the same way. If you are doing something wrong with measuring this should become more obvious then.
The issue won't be the aux pwr board. The reason is the aux power board supplies continuous power to the special solenoids (which is the pop that you have stuck on) and on-off power relays for A and C coils. Regardless of the presence of power, you still need the grounding path active to pull in the coil...and since the pop is on all the time, there is an active ground path somewhere. You pulled the 1P19 connector and the solenoid released, so the ground path is being completed at the CPU board
Now the test for the logic condition of pin 19 off the PIA reading +19VDC is highly questionable. If working correctly (seeing +5VDC and a negative going pulse only when active) then the problem would be likely between the PIA and output transistor. If not working correctly, then some upstream logic problem holding the circuit on such as bad PIA, etc...

Yea, that's how I was testing it...both the post and the braid and I get a solid 10vdc on pin 19 of the PIA. As soon as you turn it on, I get 10VDC and the jet locks. Arghh! Stupid question here, but I am testing the physical pin 19. There isn't some sort of logical mapping such that the reference to pin 19 is a logical reference but equates to a different pin position on the PIA. Yea, I know I'm grasping at straws here. So given that I see 10VDC instead of 5, it sounds like the PIA or something upstream of the PIA is the problem, correct?
On the other hand, thanks for the info on eliminating the Aux power from the equation.

#25 9 years ago

No problem. I understand your question. It's all standard logic level on the PIA, the only pecularity is that pin is programmable, and in the case of System 11 in this application used as an output. 10VDC is too high, I think the max is Vss +2VDC. Are you just measuring this level on 1 pin? More than 1 pin of the PIA? I assume other PIAs are measuring correctly on pin 19 but have to ask if you have attempted to measure any of the others. Carefully touch the PIA, is it getting hot?

I didn't see mentioned or asked, are there any signs of corrosion around the battery holder, and no other hacks? Pics of the board?

#26 9 years ago

First, I really appreciate all your help on this.
OK, so for U41 here are the voltages by pins 2 through 19
2-8.9, 3-7.7, 4-9.5, 5-7.2, 6-8.9, 7-7.1, 8-10, 9-10, 10-3.0, 11-7.7, 12-7.4, 13-6.5, 14-5.3, 15-4.8, 16-7.1, 17, 18 an 19- 10.0

I checked the PIA (u42) below this one and it was registering all 10.0 VDC across all I checked

#27 9 years ago

Ugh. Those readings are terrible. PIAs should only read close to 5vdc, 0vdc, or on some pins that are actively pulsing which "float" in the middle around 2.5vdc. Possibly a meter problem, you might want to check with another meter. Do your power supply test points read correct with that meter?

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Ugh. Those readings are terrible. PIAs should only read close to 5vdc, 0vdc, or on some pins that are actively pulsing which "float" in the middle around 2.5vdc. Possibly a meter problem, you might want to check with another meter. Do your power supply test points read correct with that meter?

Well it's clear that I am dealing with several electronic issues... I just not expect the DMM to be one of them. Replaced the battery, no change, so I got another one and, as if by magic, pin 19 registers 5.26 DVC. Hopefully, this means the PIA is OK and it's on to replacement of the aforementioned 7402. Thoughts?
Thanks

#29 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Well it's clear that I am dealing with several electronic issues... I just not expect the DMM to be one of them. Replaced the battery, no change, so I got another one and, as if by magic, pin 19 registers 5.26 DVC. Hopefully, this means the PIA is OK and it's on to replacement of the aforementioned 7402. Thoughts?
Thanks

You don't have to guess. Measure the output of the 7402, if it is low and pulses when coil test is run then it is ok.

#30 9 years ago

Finally had some time to cogitate this whole mess. As it now stands, the coil fires on startup and is in a locked position. The PIA registers and stays at ~5VDC. Since the issue is localized to the MPU and the problem manifests itself at the PIA (no pulse), I assume the PIA is shot. Is it possible that the issue could be somewhere else? Could something be 'telling' the PIA to lock that coil. The reason I ask is that I have a tough enough time soldering a transistor cleanly, I'm pretty sure I'd make a mess of 40 pins. If it is the PIA, I'll need to replace or repair the MPU, which brings up a whole new set of questions like is repair the way to go, who do people recommend, if I have to repair does it make sense to go ahead and try my hand at replacing the PIA or will the cost of repair go up if I butcher it.
Anyhow, one question at a time. Is there anything else I should check before deciding the PIA is the problem? Of course, if you have thoughts on my other questions, I'd like to hear that as well.
Thanks

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

Finally had some time to cogitate this whole mess. As it now stands, the coil fires on startup and is in a locked position. The PIA registers and stays at ~5VDC. Since the issue is localized to the MPU and the problem manifests itself at the PIA (no pulse)

The PIA stuck at 5VDC is not what is locking on the coil. The PIA output is normally high and pulses low to turn on the coil (see the diagram I posted earlier in the thread). Check the output of the 7402 and see if it is stuck high...that would lock on the coil.

#32 9 years ago

Well, I have discovered another reason why a coil might lock...it's called replacing a 2N4401 transistor with a 2N5401. Damn that writing is small. Now, in my defense, I did test and compare the new transistor with the ones beside it when I put it in. Everything seemed fine. However, you may remember that my DMM wasn't working properly, so who knows what the readings really were. Turns out I had to replace the 7402 and retested some things in case the locked coil had damaged anything. Well imagine my surprise when my newly installed '4401' wasn't reading like the others. Looking closely, I noticed a 5, not a 4. Replaced the 5401 with the 4401 and viola!, no more locking coil. So lessons learned:
1) I am an idiot
2) get better reading glasses
3) ALWAYS recheck all of your readings and tests when you discover your DMM is not working properly
4) I am an idiot

I still have some issues to address, like lighting and I have a general question about the top jets, but that is a whirlwind specific question. I'm hoping my newly found knowledge will help me muddle through these issues. Thanks for helping me through this quest.

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