Finishing up an LED swap on my routed Whirlwind player's machine. Not a gem under the playfield so as you can imagine it's always possible some wires may have moved in the swap.

I of course turned the game on a couple times to test and saw the "pinball missing" message and thought nothing of it, after all the 3 balls had been removed.

I also decided to replace the Rottendog power board with the stock power driver board I removed years ago when it was blowing fuses on the hopes the LEDs would play along better. The Rottendog board had caused a hum so loud through my pinball pro that I thought the machine would explode (all grounds checked).

Power board in, game on, hum gone! Aces! Except...3 balls loaded..."pinball missing".

Checked switch edges and sure enough, trough 1 and 2 switch levels register as down, trough 3 does not. Despite 3 balls loaded. These will be tough to test with the playfield up, anyone happen to have seen this before and know the common cause? A quick glance and all the wiring down there looked in place (not any lights in the trough to really mess up the wiring).

I will, sad as it seems, switch BACK to the noisy Rottendog board as well to make sure I am fully undoing and checking all things I changed for a pattern. If the RD board resolves the problem, I suppose that tells us something is not good on the stock power board despite it no longer blowing fuses (I was giving BR1 the side eye).

Here's the worst part - I tried playing a game anyway, figuring OK, let's at least see it still plays thinking it's only got 2 balls loaded, and man did the game act WEIRD. When I drained through the outhole the game didn't end the round (as if there was a stuck ball) and the spinning discs and fan went into like OVERDRIVE MODE -- like they were going to spin off their places! I'm talking like, Johnny-5 struck by lightning overdrive.

Additionally, the spinning discs seem to have developed a weird stutter during attract mode where they will eventually start to stutter-spin up on their own which I don't believe ever happened before.

Anyway, all sorts of ghost in the machine weirdness I seem to have introduced by swapping in LEDs and putting the factory driver board back.

Just curious I suppose if anyone's seen anything before they may be able to set me off on the journey on. I am a very amateur tech though I rebuilt my first molex the other day and that made me proud (board work and soldering under the playfield still make me shudder).

Is it possible that the Trough 3 switch just died right at this exact moment? I didn't get near its wiring and it worked without fail before I finished this lighting swap. I figure that might explain the ball behavior but still not the weird machine behavior.

Appreciate you!

A fair question. Absolutely. I don’t touch a darn thing wiring or board wise ever with the game on.

The odd behavior of the game makes me more worried than the trough 3 switch really. I’ll be swapping the rottendog board back in today to get another piece of the puzzle. Also do want to find a way to test the trough 3 switch manually.

Back with more info.

Good (?) news. Rottendog board acts 100% the same. So now, on to the question of "what the heck wires did I short out or cross while I was changing bulbs under this playfield?

Trough switch 3 - still reports open with a ball loaded. Trough 1 and Trough 2 reporting right. No idea when this started but until I started working on the back playfield lights I know Trough 3 switch worked fine.

Weirder new behavior - Once the playfield discs start to spin, they never fully stop. Lock a ball to end storm? Still spinning. Drain your ball? Still spinning even before you plunge. I will say they are off at the start of the first game BEFORE getting to the first storm activation, but once they start, never do they stop! This is also brand new. But it's doing it with both the RD and the stock power board. So, it's something with the wiring. The topper fan by the way behaves correctly. Starts and stops as it should. And the rest of the playfield also seems to be doing the things it needs to be (other than the usual weirdness from it not realizing a 3rd ball's inside).

Does the behavior of the playfield discs give any clues on some spots to check?

Thanks for checking in. Is that the test where you need the diode on one end of the alligator clip from your meter between it and the board? I saw that test and really wanted to do it, but since I don't work on boards, I am in possession of no diodes. That said, I do intend to delve deeper into the switch if I can find a way to futz with it and still see the display -- one of the tougher switches to get at in the trough, might see if I can remove the apron for a better look?

That said, any thoughts on if whatever is happening with this switch could also cause the playfield spinners to behave in that way? Or am I looking at double trouble?

Have to thank you for this tip. Learning how to do this is part of the fun. Especially when I saw the problem. I did manage to find the wire that had come loose oddly enough off of the NW switch next to the cellar way further into the game but it was the same wire that went all the way to trough three.

However, correcting this issue seems to have made the spinning disk problem incredibly worse. They now are on constantly when the game is powered on and are spinning at full speed. During attract mode and gameplay They are now running nonstop all the time. This seems to be a more challenging issue. Anyone have any insight on how to fix this one. All the switches and all system tests look good now.

I’ll note that the spinning playfield disk spin at full speed on every other push of the black coin door advance button to move through system tests. So On music test they are off then on display test, on full speed then the following test off again etc. Does that tell us anything? This is one of the weirder problems I have seen in my years of troubleshooting pinballs as an amateur.

Oh my gosh I had no idea that the position of the wires on the switch being wrong could cause this sort of behavior. I’m sure this is my issue. One of the other stand ups had a loose wire as well and I just sort of touched it to the diode instead of realizing there are very tiny specific spots those wires go. Time to learn about wire locations ok switches!

Fortunately I haven’t soldered anything yet and sort of just have contacts being made — so I can fix this. Is there anywhere I can get a picture of a close-up of the proper wiring configuration on the switch? Anyone happen to have a Whirl they could flip up and get me a glamour shot of? I’ll see what I can find out there. Not a lot of underbelly shots prob.

Knowing that an improperly routed wire on a switch can cause the solenoids to behave this way is reassuring at least that more serious damage wasn’t done.

Thanks for answering my dumb questions.

Oh man you guys rock.

Actually the area I need to see the wiring on is actually the NW target switch to the right of the cellar and the NW target switch on the left of the skyway toll entrance ramp.

Both these switches had wires off and maybe I put them back on in the wrong spot of the switch and caused the spinning disc solenoids to act up. At least, that’s what I’m hoping.

Thanks in advance, photo where I can see the solder spots would be a huge help to this rookie! Will be my first playfield solder attempt ever.

Trough 3 is fine now by the way, the NW switch wiring issue was the root cause that traveled all the way to Trough 3.

Right on. I'm sure it's painful watching me struggle to learn something as simple as soldering a switch. I'll get it.

I think what I'll first do is remove the switch wires that I had just bent over the contacts to make sure the wheels stop spinning.

Considering the switches are all now functioning 100% correct, but the discs are still turning non-stop, I do still have a worry I caused a surge that broke a transistor or something else that's controlling whether these things spin or not (and telling them not to).

LTG,

Really appreciate your help and thank you!

jhanley,

Photos helped me a ton, thanks. I could use one more if I could indulge you to pop the lid just one more time. That would be the other compass target switch that is just to the right of the first photo above. If I can see your photo correctly, looks to be 5 wires in total on that switch. Two white with purple on one lug. Two green with blue on the other lug, and additionally, a solid yellow "traveler wire" (I believe on the same lug as the green/blue?) that is coming in from that other switch I'd like to see.

THAT SAID - All switches ARE working now with your photos including trough 3 and all the standups. Switch problem SOLVED!

However...

Whatever tells the system to spin the discs is still very, very unhappy - they are still going max velocity all the time when power is on.

Unfortunately I had done quite a few things with the system before I noticed the issue so I can't pinpoint what one thing could have done this. That said, I really could use some help on what to look for. I will qualify that this is the first time in 10 years that I placed the original power board in the backbox. Prior to that, a rottendog board was in there. Naturally I thought this may be a power board issue, however placing the rottendog board back in does not remedy the problem. But I am wondering if it is possible that installing the old power board had a chain reaction that caused something else to fail elsewhere?

Here's a video of what the system is doing: https://www.reddit.com/r/pinball/comments/g3wiwc/whirlwind_disc_problem/

Note that when in attract mode, wheels spin full blast. However going into system tests, they stop when on music test and display test. When the system reaches sound test, they fire right back up. All lamp test turns them off, but single lamp, coil, switch level and switch edges and they fire back on again. They are also on full blast in attract mode. From owning the game so long I know the discs NEVER spin unless you're in the coil test for them (or playing a game obviously).

I haven't been leaving the game on too long out of fear of some sort of damage this may be doing to run it with something obviously putting current in the wrong place, but I could swear I also noticed some odd flickering of the back-right cloud flasher at the upper back of the playfield, which also works off the solenoid matrix of course, that I didn't have happening when the game was functioning normally.

Any thoughts? Really appreciate everyone's time, it is both fun and sometimes equally frustrating working on these machines myself when we are in quarantine but I like that it's gotten me back into them anyway. I just hope to get this game alive again and hope I haven't done board damage.

Okay, good I have everything wired correctly with the switches then. Appreciate that. Man that is a clean looking game you have there. You'd cry if you saw under this playfield. I just am not skilled enough yet to shop out a game.

That switch seemed to be a little different then the rest with the 2 white wires on the one lug, and the yellow wires on the other, one coming in and another going over to the other switch, so I just wanted to make sure I had it connected back up properly.

I'm going to try and unplug and replug some of the backbox connectors for the disc motor to see if I can't get this thing to right itself. Love to know any other thoughts anyone might have of what I may have done to cause this behavior.

Thanks all.

Think I'm good on the pics for now, and thanks again, super helpful to see those wires to make sure I had mine in the proper spots.

LTG may have some other ideas on what would cause the solenoid to short on like that for the discs, meanwhile, I'm going to check the cables in the backbox and unseat/reseat those to make sure, did a pretty close inspection of the wiring around the playfield looking at the switches and everything else looks good under there.

I'm a little worried it's a board issue, but I don't have a lot of skill to figure that level of stuff out or to fix it. Soldering wires is one thing, board work is another.

Thanks man. Bad news but I think this is what I expected as this seems beyond a wiring issue. So I’d want to look close to the motor on the game itself correct? I did track the connection back to what’s called the sound overlay solenoid board. Unplugging the connector the game plays fine, just no fan or spinning discs at all of course. Reseated the cables and the ribbon that runs from the cpu as well just to be safe.

So plugged it back in and decided to play a game and the behavior was odd. The disks seem to slow down at times like when there’s a ball waiting to shoot. Then they spin very slow. Once ball is in play, they pick up but do seem to vary in speed so they’re Getting a signal of some kind.

If it makes any sense, it sounds like that whatever tells the disks what to spin and how much power is out of whack somehow. Does that help narrow down what I need to get fixed? There’s a good tech in my area that I assume I will need to bring one or more boards to in order to fix this or the disc motor itself. Without the game in front of him unless he makes a house call I’m not sure what else to do. If there’s anyway I can test these components with a meter I would certainly do that. I almost would rather it not be working at all then having issues with the right levels of power.

So we know it’s getting power and also a signal to tell them when to speed up or slow down but it’s just the wrong level of power when it receives the signal. And it certainly seems like it thinks that the all stop signal is the full blast signal if that makes sense. It almost seems like a software thing if I’m being analytical because I’m a computer guy. But that’s crazy to think that one of the chips is confused or something right? This is starting to seem like a pretty complicated problem for a novice. I’m just frustrated because the game was working fine until I opened it up and started poking around in there.

Thanks, yeah that's on the docket for tomorrow. It seems quite peculiar that a transistor on a board would go out like that (though I will again offer than I did put the old original power board in right before this started, and I suppose it's possible that board could have caused some odd chain reaction to occur that fried the transistor).

A kind redditor noticed my video and the discs always-on behavior during the test mode and offered up that the transistor on the solenoid overlay board was bad: "The transistor that drives the disk motor is bad (shorted on). That transistor is on the sound overlay / solenoid board, not the driver board. That's why the motor is running during sound test. Solenoid chart in the manual will tell you which transistor it is.".

I traced this back to Q13 which looks like this (see attachment). I was nowhere near that board for anything with this project, and I am more than likely thinking doing the board work to remove Q13 and add a new Q13 would be beyond my depth. I did notice that the 2 ribbon cables going into that board matched, and swapped them (both source and destination of course), just to rule out one of the ribbon cables being bad. Behavior did not change sadly.

I'm still a little hopeful that one of the wires from the connector at the top of this photo got pinched, unplugging that connector causes the playfield discs and topper fan to not get power, therefore they do not spin at all. However I also assume they carry the signal that tells the discs when to spin or not spin.

I can certainly pull the board and have a local tech do the board work to swap out Q13 when the world reopens, hate to do it if it's not broken tho.

IMG_1021 (resized).jpg

By the way, further search shows J4, the ribbon cable you see at the bottom of the photo, is fed from J21 on the CPU board. Apparently the ribbon passes SOL 27 which tells the discs to start or stop. Then, J4 (molex at top of photo) passes the signal on to the motor for the discs on the playfield over Pin 1. Is it possible that the CPU board is sending the always on via the ribbon cable and the issue is on the CPU board not the SOS board?

I'm learning so much about testing, this has been very educational.

I decided to just remove the SOS board and test the top 2 rows of transistors using my meter. Figures that the one type of transistor, you had to use the black lead on the tab at the top, and the other row you had to use the red lead at the top tab. Because of course it would be different.

Anyway, both rows tested out just fine. All transistors reporting the voltage they are supposed to. I also traced the grey with green stripes/dashes wire which is the "carrier" from this board to the spinning disc motor for pinches or snags or breaks. All good, it's one of those wires that's easy to trace as it basically just travels by itself all the way through the bundle and into the backbox and doesn't make any stops along the way. Not even any plugs.

So, back to square one. SOS board Q13 Transistor that controls the motor is in good shape. I have been reading the really detailed System 11 repair page out there but coming up pretty empty so far, though it was very helpful in the transistor testing. I believe the page said something about the CPU board FEEDING the signal to the Sound Overlay Solenoid board, so I think maybe my next stop is trying to determine the transistor on the CPU board which in turn sends the signal to the sound overlay solenoid board to tell it to spin the discs for issues? I believe everything originates on that CPU board, and the SOS board was more just the extra juice.

The other solenoids controlled by that board are all firing correctly.

I'll throw some more pics up soon. Any other ideas I'd love to hear them! Though I've not fixed the problem I'm learning.

Thanks so much for the reply! Good to hear from another owner. Yep when my game was working before I opened the playfield to swap bulbs, it behaved the way it should. Discs spun during storm coming and multiball only.

The discs do spin at full force during attract mode. They do slow down to a lower spin rate when I start a game before the ball is shot into play, then go into what I'd call "medium high" mode during regular play (even before storm starts) and then "high speed mode" during storm or when they would have did a quick spin during a good shot like the left ramp.

So, something's up. I want to share a video of a game to show the odd spinning patterns later today and I'll also share a photo of the underside of the spinner motor to see if that sparks any ideas. 2 solid red wires and 1 grey/green going into it and that's it. So it's either one of those wires or a component that decides what current is fed through those wires.

It really felt like transistor was the answer, so I'm either testing the transistor incorrectly and getting a false positive on it being good, or it's some other transistor on a different board (not the Sound Overlay Solenoid board that powers the spinners) that is faulty and causing the chain reaction.

I'm a bit stumped, but am going to dig in again tonight. I imagine there are other transformers in these System 11B machines before Q13 on the SOS board that also come into play when deciding to send power to the spinner solenoid. Once I can identify those I'll test. I have the manual and schematics, just need to learn how to read them better to follow the logic path back from the Q13 transistor.

Figured I'd toss up a little more info of a recent test today. See photo for reference, noting ribbon cable 1, ribbon cable 2, and the molex cable heading to the playfield solenoid (spinner motor) from the SOS (Sound overlay solenoid) board.

Interestingly enough, if ANY of these 3 cables are unplugged, the spinners do not function. I already knew the "to PF spinners" cable being unplugged prevented the motor from starting, however, if either 1 of the 2 ribbon cables are unplugged, there is no in-game music, and, no spinners or topper fan.

What I think I've learned is not one but both ribbon cables carry some sort of important information together from their respective boards that tell the solenoids when to power. I just don't know

My next guess would be replacing one or both ribbon cables with a new cable, it seems so arbitrary that a ribbon cable could go bad, or determining which transistors on the boards those ribbon cables connect to are instrumental in sending the signals to the SOS board to tell the spinners to move.

Also interesting - After plugging all 3 back in, and powering the game on, the spinners take around 5 seconds to start kicking on. Almost like they are sputtering to life and then waking up before going into attract mode spin. If I power the game off, and on again, they spin right up. It's only the first time I power the game on after removing and replacing the cables, that the spinners take a few extra seconds to wake up, as if they need to get whatever current bleed coming flowing again freshly.

Very odd, this. Would love more things to look at. Definitely one of the rougher issues I have faced in my amateur pinball troubleshooting career.

whirlwind-backbox (resized).png

I am no closer to solving the issue but perhaps a little closer to understanding more about it...if anyone's still listening, anyway.

Went into individual coil test mode which blissfully stopped the full blast fan spinning while it made the rounds around the system, and learned something interesting.

The wheels stayed quiet right until I reached the grouping of 5 "sound overlay solenoids". As soon as I did, the blower wheels began to fire like crazy full blast.

That goes for all 4 items from left to right, pictured below. Any of these 4 solenoids being engaged seems to set the wheels full blast. They were dead silent until I reached this part of the coil test (the very end).

When the test finally got JUST to the discs, they actually worked correctly, as I recall, and did a slow pulse.

This sounds like some sort of "short" to me though I don't know if this provides any further clues on where to look for said short, especially since fuses and transformers (at least those I have tested so far) have tested out just fine. I also disconnected the cloud light bar at the back of the playfield which holds SOL23, SOL25, and SOL26. Did not resolve the fan issue so that part of the connection can be overruled.

Does this new information tell anyone anything about what part may be failing?

IMG_1044 (resized).jpg

I assume you meant ribbon one from your post being the one I could remove and you are correct. So thank you for that. Removing ribbon one did just stop the music from playing but allow the solenoids to fire. I did reverse the cables and also tried swapping them around just to make sure nothing changed. It didn’t so at least I have been able to rule out the ribbon cables as faulty. Good.

It’s a little hard to tell since the disks spin up so fast, hard to tell when they stop (cut signal) but I believe in the A-C diverter test that the disks only spin when it switches to C-side and stop when it switches back to A-side. I’m not sure if that gives any more information on what the problem may be. I did pull the auxiliary driver board tonight and buzz all the fuses and tested its components and everything is looking pretty good on there.

I’m also not sure if this was factory standard but I did notice in the bottom of the back box through the hole, a single wire splice connector for the gray and green wire that goes to the disc motor. I was actually able to disconnect this single wire and the disks naturally stopped functioning. What I’m still unsure of is which wire controls the signal and which controls the power. There is additionally a thick and thin solid red wire wire to the disc motor along with the gray and green wire. 3 total wires.

All the components continue to test well so I’m back to wondering if this is a wiring issue though I’m still having a little trouble with a wire causing this sort of behavior.

I have a feeling it's not the LEDs but something else I stirred up in the process. The other things I did:

- Changed from a Rottendog main power supply back to stock main power board (since went back to Rottendog, just in case main board was at fault).

- Discovered and re-soldered a few standup target switch wires.

I needed a little help making sure I wired the switches properly and they are all golden now, every switch tests and works as it should. If I'm reading the schematics correctly (though correct me if I'm wrong) a miswired target switch wouldn't have affected the solenoids or sound overlay board anyway.

The only other possibilities were that I pinched a wire somewhere moving the playfield up and down or blew something out when I put the original power board back in.

Hey guys, apologies on the delay in response, I have some outstanding people here in this thread helping and I want to thank you!

Also apologize as reading back, I realize I have been absolutely horrible at providing you the proper stats and information on the problem. Today, I'm going to take photos of the switches that had wires fall off and were rewired, and will post you all the details with photos (and proper switch numbers this time) along with a video of the solenoid test as well. I know that won't fix the problem but at least will be the right way to post the information and ask for your help. I was asking you guys to be mind readers and I feel terrible for being so unclear. This is the first time I have ever wired a switch on a pinball in my life so of course I could have messed this up and inadvertently caused a chain reaction to affect the coils on the sound overlay solenoid board.

Thanks again, will be back here in this thread soon with all the details and information on the switch wiring that took place as a part of this repair session, so we can hopefully together narrow down the culprit of the playfield disc spin-o-rama.

Wanted to stop by the thread and update everyone and again also say thanks for all the expertise here. I feel like I learn something new with every problem and while I'm not the fastest I'm at least learning.

So in looking at the switch wiring and the help of other photos you shared I was able to see the proper lugs for the in and out wires for these standup switches. I had some wires frayed and loose under there and did my best job to solder them up (soldering upside down was tough, not sure I did the best job on that one). These switches are really in tight spots with a lot around them.

Anyway, lo and behold, after the solder and verifying all 3 switches worked in test mode, reconnected the disc motor line and my jaw dropped. They were no longer shorting out and working properly!!! I am ecstatic. I will likely say this problem was caused by errant switch wiring putting current where it should not have been but I may never know.

Of course with that fixed it's on to the next problem. One of them is my power board causing resets. The rottendog board isn't doing it so I'm attaching a photo for Grumpy to take a look at. He's thinking the board may need some work. I imagine this is stock.

There's also the matter of the left flipper not resting nearly high enough when held down, power seems decent but boy is it low, can't even trap a ball there. Something I will need to investigate remedies for.

So happy to see the discs working again, and I can at least play test games with the Rottendog board in until I get my stock board serviced.

IMG_1191 (resized).jpg

Thanks, the power supply board is off for repair so it can be tip-top, using my Rottendog board in the interim.

I'm back for now as it seems to be the pinball curse on this one. You know, fix one thing, something else breaks, kind of thing.

So I'm noticing some odd behavior with ball presence in the game. Primarily, the lock area and the cellar area. I've tested the switch edges and all seems fine. However, in gameplay, the game has started to just spit balls shot into the right cellar (round start) as if they were shot into the left cellar. Easy enough if it were just that problem, I'd assume bad or switch needing checked inside the cellar entrance. However, the game additionally now has started to shoot out locked balls during gameplay as if they didn't belong there.

What I am THINKING might be happening is the game is getting confused due to the problem in the cellar and kicking off the "stuck ball" fire all solenoids thing and the losing the locked ball is a side effect.

Anyone seen this issue before and have a place to start? I've got plenty of time here in PA as quarantine continues and while I'm waiting for the board repair.

Think I'll start by checking IJ8 Column 3 wiring and plug since it seems the cellar and lock switches all fall on this same column / wire. The wiring is pretty crummy under there (mostly just brittle and old) and my soldering skills leave a lot to be desired (I continue to be great at melting solder, and terrible at getting it to actually melt on top of the wire and switch where it needs to go). I'll get better.

Gonna bump this topic as the issue has reared its ugly head yet again.

Oddly enough the game ran fine for a few days and it's almost like the problem just built up somewhere as I played.

Here's an interesting observation -- So, first few power ups, the discs pulsed a little bit in attract mode, not anything near full on, just enough that you knew something was wrong. After a few more power cycles, the discs now come on FULL BLAST immediately upon power being turned on. Without anything else changing. Almost as if the power bleed is building up somewhere like a dam about to break and once it's full, it's full?

I've noticed that if I remove molex connections from the Sound Overlay Solenoid and Power boards, the cycle starts anew -- In other words, the discs only slow pulse again. Like I've "bled out" the power buildup somehow.

Does this behavior at all give a clue on what might be faulty?

Update on the game while waiting for the power board, discovered some sound issues, when bypassing the Sound Overlay Solenoid board the sound and display begin to act up. Starting to think this may be a CPU board issue. Attache some photos of the board.

Wondering if battery leakage would explain the odd behavior...

IMG_1349 (resized).jpg

IMG_1350 (resized).jpg

Well hey at least the problem finally reveals itself -- I'll pull the CPU board and hope for the best. Hopefully little damage and fixing that will remedy both the new sound issues and the playfield disc problem. Makes a little more sense now that disconnecting the ribbon cable from the CPU board to the overlay stopped them spinning, it was the CPU board sending the wrong signals out because it's all corrupted by evil dried battery acid!

Turns out that component above the left battery, even though I cleaned it off, took some damage from the battery leakage, and that component has something to do with the sound which explains why my machine was playing the wrong or weird sounds. Hopefully getting that replaced will also fix the spinning disc issue. I will report back once I find someone local to work on the CPU board. Beyond my comfort level!