Whirlwind - My first resto

Quoted from Schwaggs:
Cool, then there is only a potential problem with U17. Is that by chance socketed? If so, check out the solder job on that socket and if another 6118 is socketed, it would be a simple test to swap them and see if the problem follows the chip.

I dont believe it is but I will check when I get home. So, I'm used to automotive/motorcycle diagrams... the hollow line after the diodes from j5 goes directly to u19 and u20. The thin lines that branch to u17 and u18 are connected to the hollow line? I was assuming there would be dots if they were and they just passed under on the diagram... thank you for helping me narrow this down

IMG_4355 (resized).PNG

#52 6 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

The hollow line represents all the lines that enters and exits the hollow lines. It usually represents a bus (address or data) but was a way to draw the schematic without drawing all the individual lines, which took a lot of time to draw (by hand) and was messy. Look for the line description as it enters and exits the hollow box to know what connects to what.

Also, the parts you thought were diodes, are actually buffers. They recondition the signal as it passes through. This is used when signals travel a great distance (the ribbon cable in this case) or multiple devices are on that same signal. Since there isn't a small circle at the point of the triangle, you know the same signal entering (hi or lo) should exit the buffer. If there was a small circle at the point, it would be called an inverter and the opposite signal at the input would be at the output. Diodes have a line at the point of the triangle.

In your case, you are looking for pulsing at the inputs and outputs of the buffers. If there is a solid hi or lo signal, you have a problem.

#53 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Well I noticed u11 and u12 was socketed and should be the same chips. It also looks like u12 was desoldered and shoved into the socket. Is a tc4049bp the same as a cd4049cn? I swapped the two chips between u11 and u12 and the scrambled segments have moved.

Ill order a few of these I guess.. is there anyway playing it with these chips missing or bad could cause any damage? I would assume not becuase its just data. But I'd like to make sure.. the score still works so I'd like to play it (superbowl party)!

IMG_4380 (resized).JPG

#54 6 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

The prefix on those chips indicates the manufacturer. 4049 is the chip you want.

No harm playing the game with those segments stuck on, unless any of the segments are extra bright. That might cause premature failure of the digit.

#55 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Progress! Threw a cable in and u11-12 quick because they are socketed. Still missing one segment. I ordered all the chips and resistors for the display board so I will hopefully get it going 100% tonight when I get time

IMG_4416 (resized).JPG

#56 6 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

Awesome!

#57 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Well RIP whirlwind. I pulled a bag out with two 7180s in it and put them into u19 and u20.. turns out the one i put in u19 was a 6118. Machine wont boot. Replaced f1 fuse still nothing, no display beside failure message. Sick to my stomach. Bonehead move

No blinks on diagnostic led during start up, constant blink with coin door open. One tone after pressing diag switch 2

IMG_4420 (resized).JPG

#58 6 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Northampton, MA

11y 82,950 2,093 4

Deep breath, it's rare that these things can't be fixed.

My boss has a minty Gorgar, I sent his boards out to be rebuilt, got them in and seated the ribbon cable incorrectly, boomsauce down the line. Sent them back out to my board guy and a few swapped parts and they were as good as new.

It sucks, but it happens and luckily you have plenty of resources available to you.

#59 6 years ago

JOE

alexmogil

Pinside+ Frequent

Parkersburg, WV

7y 79,550 1,026 17 29

There are resources here on Pinside and much to learn, but maybe now send them off - none of this is irreparable!

#60 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

ugh.. still can't believe I did that. I was thinking about sending the cpu out to get a check over anyways. Guess it will be sooner than later. Hopefully I just whiped the ram/rom or something.

#61 6 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

Don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us! Simple mistake.

I don't have access to schematics at the moment. When I get home tonight, I'll have a look and try and tell you what that may have fried, if anything.

In the mean time, remove the ribbon cable from the display and see if the CPU will boot.

#62 6 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Northampton, MA

11y 82,950 2,093 4

Quoted from Schwaggs:
In the mean time, remove the ribbon cable from the display and see if the CPU will boot.

#63 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Quoted from Schwaggs:
Don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us! Simple mistake.
I don't have access to schematics at the moment. When I get home tonight, I'll have a look and try and tell you what that may have fried, if anything.
In the mean time, remove the ribbon cable from the display and see if the CPU will boot.

With the ribbon removed the +vdc light is constant, the diagnostics led flashes for maybe 50 blinks, then the blanking led will flash ten times. No boot

#64 6 years ago

JON

Schwaggs

The lines from U19 connect through buffers U7 and U8 on the display board ultimately connecting to U42 on the CPU board.

I suspect what that error is saying is U42 Failure. Its hard to read because some display segments are stuck on likely caused by blown buffer chips or the bad PIA itself.

Start by replacing the buffers U7 and U8 (4049) on the display board BEFORE replacing U42. The reason you want to do the buffers first is the bad buffers MIGHT blow the PIA outputs. Unlikely but better safe than sorry since they all need to be replaced anyway.

Then try U42 (6821), and you might have to replace U41 (another 6821) if the buffer chip also corrupted the other PIA.

#65 6 years ago

Blackbeard

Pinside member

12y 106K 12,108 6 20

Send to Clive.

He'll take care of it.

coinopcauldron

#66 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Quoted from Blackbeard:
Send to Clive.
He'll take care of it.
coinopcauldron

I might, we'll see. I have chips on the way. I am totally comfortable replacing components on the board. Diagnosing is what im not too sure about. I'll give a triple check on what chips go where this time before plugging anything in.

I will probably send the board out even if this does fix it....

#67 6 years ago

Blackbeard

Pinside member

12y 106K 12,108 6 20

OP
Quoted from orangegsx:
I might, we'll see. I have chips on the way. I am totally comfortable replacing components on the board. Diagnosing is what im not too sure about. I'll give a triple check on what chips go where this time before plugging anything in.
I will probably send the board out even if this does fix it....

Gotcha.

I am kinda the same. I can replace a few parts on boards here and there. But what I love about sending it out to clive is that he tests all the parts. So one's that are failing, etc. he replaces. Just kinda save a lot of headache down the road. And the pricing isn't too bad.

Good luck! Miss my whirly

#68 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Quoted from Schwaggs:
The lines from U19 connect through buffers U7 and U8 on the display board ultimately connecting to U42 on the CPU board.
I suspect what that error is saying is U42 Failure. Its hard to read because some display segments are stuck on likely caused by blown buffer chips or the bad PIA itself.
Start by replacing the buffers U7 and U8 (4049) on the display board BEFORE replacing U42. The reason you want to do the buffers first is the bad buffers MIGHT blow the PIA outputs. Unlikely but better safe than sorry since they all need to be replaced anyway.
Then try U42 (6821), and you might have to replace U41 (another 6821) if the buffer chip also corrupted the other PIA.

Replaced u7-u8 u41-u42, the correct chips in u19, and the u25 ram chip.

IMG_4507 (resized).JPG

Then I unplugged the display and it booted and made three sounds after the chime, the 5vdc was constant and the diag blinking, blanking was on. Just one time, back to not booting now

I guess looking at the diagram I probly should have ordered chips for u44 and maybe u51? After replacing u11-u12 on the display?

Probly going to just send this thing out. Don't have any extra cash at the moment though.

3 weeks later

#69 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Big thanks to Clive! Operation has been restored. Still missing segment C on the lower display. All related chips have been replaced. I'll re check all the wiring, Then I guess its display time.

IMG_4709 (resized).JPG

#70 6 years ago

MMM

nerdygrrl

Pinside member

Northampton, MA

11y 82,950 2,093 4

Very nice. What did it end up being?

#71 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Quoted from nerdygrrl:
Very nice. What did it end up being?

Williams System 11B CPU board (Whirlwind. Blown logic chips. Prior repairs. Inoperative): All fourn sound and game ROMs removed and internal data verified (Vcc +/- 0.25v). All socketed ICs removed and tested. Signals in, out and around board analyzed. 3x NOS 68A21 PIA ICs and 3x 40-pin machined chip sockets (U41, U42, U51). NOS 74HCT154 IC and 24-pin chip socket (U44). NOS 2016 8K RAM chip (U25). 8x 27 ohm 5 wayy ceramic power resistors (R82 -- R89, all burned). 2x 10uf/35v (C8, C15), 22uf/16v (C30) and 3x 100uf/50v/105c (C24, C26, C29) capacitors. All socketed ICs removed and tested. All transistors, SCRs, diodes and zeners curve-traced and tested. Signals in, out and around board analyzed. Board cleaned up. Added 3AA remote battery pack system. Two-tier full functional testing

#72 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

My next project. Little fiberglass work

IMG_4716 (resized).JPG

#73 6 years ago

Blackbeard

Pinside member

12y 106K 12,108 6 20

Clive is the man.

Replaces all failing parts. Pretty much bulletproofs boards.

My go-to for all board work.

#74 6 years ago

MAZ

zerbam

Pinside+ Frequent

Holland, MI

12y 77,550 1,289 8

finally putting my whirlwind back together....replacing all factory stickers inside and out......trying to establish my date of manufacture for the decal on the back........can you read yours along with the serial number.....if I get enough numbers I can get an average build per day and figure out my date.......thanks

#75 6 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member

Quoted from zerbam:
finally putting my whirlwind back together....replacing all factory stickers inside and out......trying to establish my date of manufacture for the decal on the back........can you read yours along with the serial number.....if I get enough numbers I can get an average build per day and figure out my date.......thanks

All I got, serial number on the board though. No date anywhere

IMG_4801 (resized).JPG

#76 6 years ago

MAZ

zerbam

Pinside+ Frequent

Holland, MI

12y 77,550 1,289 8

thanks.......using the number I have received so far and the 1990 calendar I think that figured out my date (approx.). using the 2 closest serial numbers to figure out how many were made per day average then number of days between dates and the calendar my date is 90029

1 month later

#77 5 years ago

BBR

orangegsx

Pinside member