Whirlwind Lamp Issue

(Topic ID: 218989)

Whirlwind Lamp Issue


By JKaiser123

10 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by Schwaggs
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 10 days ago

Hello everyone. My wife and I just picked up our first Whirlwind and we seem to be having issues with the lamps. When we got the game many of the bulbs were burned out. So we went about replacing them with all brand new 906, 555 and 47 bulbs. The goal is to someday LED. Anyway when we booted up the game we noticed some very odd behavior. As soon as you start a new game the shoot again and 2x-6x bonus lights are always lit through the whole game from before you even plunge to the final ball draining. Before changing the bulbs none of these lamps were lit. In addition none of the pop bumpers are lit (these did work before changing all the bulbs) nor are shoot, skill,super, 2 tolls, lock, or release (these never worked) throughout play. When you put it into all lamps test mode these bulbs do not light either. Additionally both 5k when flashing and the 100k bonus sweep fail to light during the test. In game they seem to flicker for a extremely brief moment every so often so I'm not sure if that is normal. I checked all the fuses and pulled each connection on the lamp board. Nothing seemed burned or out of place. Any assistance would be appreciated.

#2 10 days ago

Looks like many of those are in the same columns of the lamp matrix. Can you compare with it and see if all the on/off bulbs are in specific columns?

#3 10 days ago

Did you test the fuses for continuity with a multi meter? Are they the correct fuses?

#4 10 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Looks like many of those are in the same columns of the lamp matrix. Can you compare with it and see if all the on/off bulbs are in specific columns?

Yes it looks like all of the bulbs that are on constantly are in column 52. I also noticed that the 2x-6x bonus lights in attract mode are always on as well not just during game. They just flicker slightly instead of cycle on and off between each other in a pattern. And while playing the 3000 spinner light is always on as well.

The right ramp lock, right ramp double tolls, L ramp million plus, L ramp million, L ramp release, skill shot right, skill shot mid, skill shot left are are on column 56. Those are totally out in game and in attract.

All of the jets upper and lower plus the cellar lights are on column 58. I just confirmed that the cellar lights are non functional along with the jets.

I hope that answers your question. I am new at diagnosing these electrical issues so pardon my ignorance. Thanks!!

#5 10 days ago

For the columns that are out, check if the bulbs have burned out again or if they're still good. If they're still good, it could be a bad connector or a problem on the mpu board. Can't hurt to re-plug all the involved connectors and see if anything changes

For the column that is stuck on, examine each bulb+socket, make sure none are touching any metal anywhere. A stuck on column is either a short somewhere like that or a board issue.

#6 10 days ago
Quoted from CollinT:

Did you test the fuses for continuity with a multi meter? Are they the correct fuses?

I just checked all fuses for continuity and all passed.

The following fuses I noticed are incorrect:

PSB:
F2 and F3 require 1/8A SB but had 1/4a and 1a inserted.

Aux power driver board:
F4 require 2.5A SB but had 5A inserted
F5 and F6 require 2A but had 5A inserted
F7 require 4A but had 5A inserted

I will replace them with the correct fuses this evening

#7 10 days ago

Sounds like the column 5 and 6 drives are out whereas the column 8 drive is locked on. It’s almost certainly a board problem in the lamp matrix area of the board. Bottom right as you look at it the cabinet. Probably the TIP42s (Q52, Q56 and Q58). Check those.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Lamp_Matrix_Row_and_Column_Testing

#8 10 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Sounds like the column 5 and 6 drives are out whereas the column 8 drive is locked on. It’s almost certainly a board problem in the lamp matrix area of the board. Bottom right as you look at it the cabinet. Probably the TIP42s (Q52, Q56 and Q58). Check those.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Lamp_Matrix_Row_and_Column_Testing

Ok let me run the test and I will report back. Thanks!

#9 10 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Sounds like the column 5 and 6 drives are out whereas the column 8 drive is locked on. It’s almost certainly a board problem in the lamp matrix area of the board. Bottom right as you look at it the cabinet. Probably the TIP42s (Q52, Q56 and Q58). Check those.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Lamp_Matrix_Row_and_Column_Testing

Ok so I ran the test and all of the rows checked out. When I ran the column test I had issues. Q58 was flashing but so dim you could only see it with the lights out. Q56 was not flashing at all whatsoever. Q54 and Q52 (lamps that are stuck on) were flashing but so bright it actually blinded me with a 47 bulb... so it would seem as you stated Q58, Q56 and Q52 are having problems as well as Q54. How do I test the TIP42s and if they are indeed bad where to I purchase replacements? Thanks again!!

#10 10 days ago

Using your meter on diode setting, put the red lead on the center leg and then the black on each outer leg, you should get ~0.5V +- 0.1. The readings on all the column transistors should be similar. If the ones on the questionable columns don't match the working columns, you know there's a problem

#11 10 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Using your meter on diode setting, put the red lead on the center leg and then the black on each outer leg, you should get ~0.5V +- 0.1. The readings on all the column transistors should be similar. If the ones on the questionable columns don't match the working columns, you know there's a problem

Just tested all of them and every single one tested within range. Q52-Q58 in question read just the same as the others between .5 +-.1. Any other suggestions? Does this mean the TIP42s are good and there is another issue?

#12 9 days ago

Well I have the CPU out and I am going to reflow all of the pins and replace the 4 TIP42s in question. I noticed that some of the ceramic resistors R82-R86 are a bit cracked on top is this cause for concern? There is no scorching on the board. Anything else I can test in relation to my issue while the board is on the table? Not exactly what my wife and I had in mind with our first Whirlwind. We were told at the time it just had a large number of burned out lamps. Live and learn I guess!

#13 9 days ago
Quoted from JKaiser123:

Well I have the CPU out and I am going to reflow all of the pins and replace the 4 TIP42s in question. I noticed that some of the ceramic resistors R82-R86 are a bit cracked on top is this cause for concern? There is no scorching on the board. Anything else I can test in relation to my issue while the board is on the table? Not exactly what my wife and I had in mind with our first Whirlwind. We were told at the time it just had a large number of burned out lamps. Live and learn I guess!

Check their resistance. If it's out of spec that could cause the TIP42s to act up. Other components in that area could also fail and do this, but it's less common

#14 9 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

More More
Check their resistance. If it's out of spec that could cause the TIP42s to act up. Other components in that area could also fail and do this, but it's less common

I'm so sorry to keep asking but what should their resistance read? The diode test came back at .5 +/-.1 or so on the TIP42s.

#15 9 days ago

Looks like 27 ohms on the schematic

#16 9 days ago

In my experience ...

I have never seen the resistors go bad but there's no reason that they cannot go bad. They are easy to measure so if you're in there just measure it if you want.

A "good" reading on a transistor does not necessarily mean it's "good". A "bad" reading on a transistor means it's "bad".

If you're comfortable replacing the TIP42s then go ahead and replace them. They're cheap. If that fixes your problem then you're done. If not then you'll need to go further upstream to the pre-driver transistor (2N6427) or possibly even further.

The bulbs also likely burned out because they were over-driven by the shorted transistor.

#17 9 days ago

Ok so I measured the 2n6427s and the 4 on the columns in question are getting very different readings than the remaining 4 working columns who all measured the same. The resistors checked out fine. I'm going to be replacing the TIP42s and the 2n6427s tonight and will report back. I also reflowed all of the pins while I had it out.

#18 9 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

It's very rare for the resistors to go bad. They are easy to measure so if you're in there just measure it if you want.

I've had a lot of games where the lamp matrix resistors had cracked from the heat and stress they go through.

#19 9 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I've had a lot of games where the lamp matrix resistors had cracked from the heat and stress they go through.

I definitely believe that. After one minute of power those resistors are hot to the touch. My statement was too definitive so I'll retract it with apologies.

I've adopted the policy of replacing the 27 Ohm resistors and TIP42s with "the MOSFET modification" on all System 11 and Data East boards that I have.

#20 9 days ago

Well I replaced all of the TIP42s and the 2n6427s. No dice unfortunately.... I'm now more confused than ever.

Now Q58 is super bright on test with jumped bulb (was previously dead)
Q56 is still dead; has not worked since purchase
Q54 is super bright on test with jumped bulb and has been since purchase.
Q52 is now dead (was previously working)

I noticed that when touched the TIP42s and the 2n6427s are SUPER hot to the touch. Namely the ones that seem to be trouble. Not really sure what to do at this point.

#21 8 days ago

If you've replaced the TIP42s and the 2N6427s and they all read identical and correct you need to go upstream. This usually involves a logic probe. You could replace ICs upstream without verification to hope it solves the problem but replacing un-socketed ICs without a reason is risking damage to the board if you don't have the appropriate skills. I do not know your skill level so apologies if you're capable of doing this.

U52 and U53 are the next ICs upstream (see the schematic for further information). These are 7408s. Further upstream from that is U54 which is a 6821 PIA.

If you're comfortable that the TIP42s and 2N6427s are good then I'd recommend getting a logic probe (or oscilloscope) and checking the signals coming off the ICs before replacing any more parts.

#22 8 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

If you've replaced the TIP42s and the 2N6427s and they all read identical and correct you need to go upstream. This usually involves a logic probe. You could replace ICs upstream without verification to hope it solves the problem but replacing un-socketed ICs without a reason is risking damage to the board if you don't have the appropriate skills. I do not know your skill level so apologies if you're capable of doing this.
U52 and U53 are the next ICs upstream (see the schematic for further information). These are 7408s. Further upstream from that is U54 which is a 6821 PIA.
If you're comfortable that the TIP42s and 2N6427s are good then I'd recommend getting a logic probe (or oscilloscope) and checking the signals coming off the ICs before replacing any more parts.

So the TIP42s are all reading perfectly but 4 of the 2N6427s I replaced have irregular readings. Of course those 4 are on the columns in question. Not sure why that would be. I dont really want to replace the ICs myself. I'm ok at soldering but not that good as I'm just starting out. I would hate to risk damaging the board. Not sure at this point if I should find someone to repair this board or save up to eventually replace it with a rottendog.

#23 8 days ago
Quoted from JKaiser123:

So the TIP42s are all reading perfectly but 4 of the 2N6427s I replaced have irregular readings. Of course those 4 are on the columns in question. Not sure why that would be. I dont really want to replace the ICs myself. I'm ok at soldering but not that good as I'm just starting out. I would hate to risk damaging the board. Not sure at this point if I should find someone to repair this board or save up to eventually replace it with a rottendog.

It's likely that one of the other components connected to the 2N6427s is bad and affecting your readings since you installed new ones and are still getting bad readings. Check all the diodes involved with the diode test and the resistors with the ohms test and see if any of the ones for the bad columns is different from the ones in the good columns

#24 8 days ago
Quoted from JKaiser123:

So the TIP42s are all reading perfectly but 4 of the 2N6427s I replaced have irregular readings. Of course those 4 are on the columns in question.

The other components in the circuit are the resistor arrays. You can take the resistor readings to verify they are in specification.

Quoted from JKaiser123:

Not sure at this point if I should find someone to repair this board or save up to eventually replace it with a rottendog.

There are board repairers on this site that can do it for you but if you want to diagnose the problem further ... try the above as well as get a logic probe and see if the ICs show incorrect signals.

#25 8 days ago
Quoted from JKaiser123:

So the TIP42s are all reading perfectly but 4 of the 2N6427s I replaced have irregular readings. Of course those 4 are on the columns in question. Not sure why that would be.

Could be the pullup resistors that that have been mentioned or the outputs to the 7408s that drive the transistors are bad. If you have a logic probe, you can see if they are stuck low or high. You could also verify the inputs to the 7408 is functioning to see if the problem is with the 7408 or the 6821 that feeds them.

I wouldn't leave the game on very long with the lamp matrix malfunctioning as you are sending too much voltage to the bulbs and will burn out those overheating transistors and bulbs again.

#27 8 days ago

I really appreciate the input everyone. I unfortunately do not own a logic probe nor have I ever used one before. Like I said pardon my ignorance as I'm just starting to dig into electronics so a bit of this went over my head. I would not even know what to look for if I had a logic probe. While I am most certainly willing to learn I'm kinda lost at this point if I'm being honest.

As far as testing the rectangular resistors between the TIP42s and the 2n6426s they all read between 27 and 28 ohms. I believe that is correct.

#28 8 days ago

Im not throwing in the towel on this one I'm determined to figure this out. Ok so I checked the TIP42s and they all check out still. When I test the 2n6427s 2 of the 4 I replaced yesterday are not checking out. As you all said something else could be throwing them out of wack. All of these tests have been with the board on the table:

Q57: Emitter to collector = 1.653 and emitter to base = 1.231 which is the same as the other working columns. Q57/Q58/column 5 is one that is burning super bright however.

Q55: Emitter to collector = 1.654 and emitter to base
= .441. This is out of spec compared to the working 4 columns which all read 1.653 emitter to collector and 1.231 emitter to base. Q55/Q56/column 6 has never worked.

Q53: Emitter to collector = 1.652 and emitter to base
= 1.229 which is very close to the other working columns. Q53/Q54/column 7 also burns super bright on test.

Q51: Emitter to collector = 1.652 and emitter to base
= .010. This is way out of spec compared to the other working columns. Q51/Q52/column 8 is not working on test.

The only resistors I have tested are the 8 rectangular ceramic 27 ohm resistors physically between the transistors. All of the resistors read between 27 and 28 ohms and passed continuity. I assume those are the ones you have asked me to test unless there are others as well.

As far as a logic probe is concerned would this suffice for testing the ICs?

Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe amazon.com link »

#29 8 days ago
Quoted from JKaiser123:

LP-560 Logic Probe

I have that exact one, seems to work although my issues to date have NOT been on the ICs.
With this probe I can tell if a leg is high, low or pulse.
Not sure that is much of an endorsement.

#30 8 days ago

So I know it's not a fool proof method whatsoever but I ran a diode test on U54, U53 and U52 while i figure out the logic probe situation. From ground all the legs on U54 and U53 were within .4 to .7.

U52 however had 2 legs that read way high at 1.896. So out of curiosity I ran a continuity test from those 2 legs to the Q51-Q65 transistors. One leg was connected to the base of Q57 and the other leg was connected to the base of Q53 both of which are running super bright on test.

#31 8 days ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

I have that exact one, seems to work although my issues to date have NOT been on the ICs.
With this probe I can tell if a leg is high, low or pulse.
Not sure that is much of an endorsement.

Good enough for me!

Also I found TerryBs guide who also uses this same probe. I placed the order and it will be here Sunday. Now we play the waiting game...

#32 8 days ago

Measure resistance from the 5V supply to the base of Q51, 53, 55, 57, 59, 61, 63 and 65.

The logic probe you have posted is the same one I have been using for years as well. Its a good one.

#33 8 days ago

At this point I'd probably start by just replacing U52. It seems to be common to all the problem columns, while all the other columns use U53.

#34 8 days ago

Thanks everyone. I get the parts and logic probe Sunday so I'll report back then!

#35 5 days ago

Surgery was a success!!! I replaced U52, tested everything and all my readings came back to normal on Q51-Q57. Tested the old chip out of board and there were 5 legs reading OL. Took a deep breath and flipped the switch. Everything works perfectly! Thanks everyone for all of your help! I could not have done it without you. Now my wife and I can enjoy Whirlwind!

#36 5 days ago

“Here it comes!”

Congrats on the fix!

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