(Topic ID: 62621)

Whirlwind Club... Members Only!

By mof

9 years ago


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#4651 16 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The up/down locking button on the coin door will pause the test when you lock it in the down position and repeat the solenoid/flasher that you are on until you unlock it.

This sounds like the A/C relay isn't energizing which switches power to the C side solenoids.

The original requires a +, -100 volts and the new one doesn't need this. This part of the power supply maybe bad but it won't affect the flashers.

Should I be able to hear the switch or feel the vibration of the motion from the relay itself during these tests? And if I don't, should I just go ahead and order a new one? I watched a video of a guy replace one and while not super easy, I think I can pull it off.

This is all really helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to educate me!

#4652 16 days ago

Here is the video I made of the solenoid test

#4653 16 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Here is the video I made of the solenoid test

This video is strange because it shows that the software thinks the C side is engaged but it clearly isn't because no flashers are energizing. The flashers are only supposed to energize if there is feedback from the 4N25 for switch 12. Clearly the software thinks this is the case.

  • Make a quick video of the C side test.
  • Include (or make another video of) the active switch test. This may show switch 12 is active even though it should not be (at rest).
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I watched a video of a guy replace one and while not super easy, I think I can pull it off.

Before replacing the relay you should probably do some more investigation to isolate the cause. The pins of the relay are tight and you can easily damage the through holes if you don't do this carefully. I would advise not risking the board without a good reason to take that risk. But it's your board so you can do what you want.

#4654 15 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Should I be able to hear the switch or feel the vibration of the motion from the relay itself during these tests? And if I don't, should I just go ahead and order a new one? I watched a video of a guy replace one and while not super easy, I think I can pull it off.
This is all really helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to educate me!

Yes you should be able to hear and feel the relay click. Just because the relay isn't working doesn't mean the relay is bad. There is a drive circuit that powers the A/C relay and if the relay isn't working then this circuit needs to be tested.

Screenshot 2022-11-15 202118 (resized).png
#4655 15 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

This video is strange because it shows that the software thinks the C side is engaged but it clearly isn't because no flashers are energizing. The flashers are only supposed to energize if there is feedback from the 4N25 for switch 12. Clearly the software thinks this is the case.

Make a quick video of the C side test.
Include (or make another video of) the active switch test. This may show switch 12 is active even though it should not be (at rest).

Before replacing the relay you should probably do some more investigation to isolate the cause. The pins of the relay are tight and you can easily damage the through holes if you don't do this carefully. I would advise not risking the board without a good reason to take that risk. But it's your board so you can do what you want.

Quoted from DumbAss:

This video is strange because it shows that the software thinks the C side is engaged but it clearly isn't because no flashers are energizing. The flashers are only supposed to energize if there is feedback from the 4N25 for switch 12. Clearly the software thinks this is the case.

Make a quick video of the C side test.
Include (or make another video of) the active switch test. This may show switch 12 is active even though it should not be (at rest).

Before replacing the relay you should probably do some more investigation to isolate the cause. The pins of the relay are tight and you can easily damage the through holes if you don't do this carefully. I would advise not risking the board without a good reason to take that risk. But it's your board so you can do what you want.

#4656 15 days ago

You did not include a video of the switch level (active switch) results. This is important in a differential diagnosis.

Let me apologize for the above post where I mention "switch 12". It's actually switch 2 (02="C Side Power A/C Relay"). WPC nomenclature is "switch 12" whereas System 11 nomenclature is "switch 2". It is switch column 1 and switch row 2. You need to report the active (on inactive) status of switch 2. Make (and post) a video of diagnostic test 6 (06 = switch levels).

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Should I be able to hear the switch or feel the vibration of the motion from the relay itself during these tests? And if I don't, should I just go ahead and order a new one?

You need to start doing some measuring. Without any definitive measurements you're guessing (or shotgunning). Shotgunning can work but it can also make things worse (unnecessarily replacing a component and causing more damage during that process).

All things point to a relay failure but I don't think it's as straight forward. If there is no power at 5J11-1 during C side engagement then there should be no power at 2J5-9 and therefore no power to the transmitter side of the 4N25. This means that switch 2 is NOT closed. The software will enable the drive transistor for the C side if and ONLY if switch 2 is closed. The fact the software energizes the drive transistor (causing the solenoid not the flasher to fire) means there has to be a switch 2 closure. This information is missing.

#4657 13 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You did not include a video of the switch level (active switch) results. This is important in a differential diagnosis.
Let me apologize for the above post where I mention "switch 12". It's actually switch 2 (02="C Side Power A/C Relay"). WPC nomenclature is "switch 12" whereas System 11 nomenclature is "switch 2". It is switch column 1 and switch row 2. You need to report the active (on inactive) status of switch 2. Make (and post) a video of diagnostic test 6 (06 = switch levels).

You need to start doing some measuring. Without any definitive measurements you're guessing (or shotgunning). Shotgunning can work but it can also make things worse (unnecessarily replacing a component and causing more damage during that process).
All things point to a relay failure but I don't think it's as straight forward. If there is no power at 5J11-1 during C side engagement then there should be no power at 2J5-9 and therefore no power to the transmitter side of the 4N25. This means that switch 2 is NOT closed. The software will enable the drive transistor for the C side if and ONLY if switch 2 is closed. The fact the software energizes the drive transistor (causing the solenoid not the flasher to fire) means there has to be a switch 2 closure. This information is missing.

I have been trying to figure out how to test these things the last couple of days but the reality is, I don’t know what I’m doing.

Could you tell me how to test 5J11-1 and 2J5-9 correctly? I know where they are, but specifically where should I ground for accurate readings, and am I looking to hold the positive lead on the metal tab of the wire harness (connected to the pin) while the coil test is cycling?

Next, in order to test the 4N25 is that testing the diodes? I have tested every diode I could find on the auxiliary power board, main power, and MPU and I can only assume I’m doing something wrong because about 2/3 of them all are showing voltage going in both directions. Wouldn’t I have more problems if that’s true?

I am using a Fluke 101.

If it is not obvious, the lower drop target is in the down position in this video.

I am grateful for all the help!

#4658 13 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I have been trying to figure out how to test these things the last couple of days but the reality is, I don’t know what I’m doing.

I applaud you for stating this. I have seen many times before where someone posting for help doesn't understand but simply doesn't want to admit they don't understand. So what do they do? Ignore the advice and get nowhere. Plenty of examples of this on this forum.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Could you tell me how to test 5J11-1 and 2J5-9 correctly? I know where they are, but specifically where should I ground for accurate readings, and am I looking to hold the positive lead on the metal tab of the wire harness (connected to the pin) while the coil test is cycling?

Set the DMM to DC voltage (V with straight bar above not wavy bar). Attach black lead to any ground point. This can be the ground braid for ease. Insert red lead to contact the metal in the connector at 5J11-1 and 2J5-9. Note that you will not get a reading of 25V while the A side is active. You will only get the 25V reading when the C side is active. Go to the C side test and when the C side is active look at the DMM. You should be able to hold the C side active by latching (depressing) the auto/manual switch when the C side is active.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Next, in order to test the 4N25 is that testing the diodes? I have tested every diode I could find on the auxiliary power board, main power, and MPU and I can only assume I’m doing something wrong because about 2/3 of them all are showing voltage going in both directions. Wouldn’t I have more problems if that’s true?

Do the test without any connectors connected. This isolates as much as possible. If you leave connectors connected you can get interference.

See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#4N25_Opto_Couplers_in_the_Switch_Matrix for information on testing the 4N25.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

If it is not obvious, the lower drop target is in the down position in this video.

Now that's weird. I was expecting to see switch 02 closed. The software needs to see C side engagement before energizing the drive transistor. You may need to run the switch edge test (07) and ground the A/C select drive transistor and see if the switch (02) registers. This seems more unlikely to be the cause of the problem but it doesn't hurt to verify it is working correctly (i.e. the switch closes when you ground A/C select drive transistor).

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I am grateful for all the help!

I am much more inclined to help someone that admits they don't know than someone who pretends to know and it's obvious to someone who knows that they don't know. Seen plenty of these people in real life at my old job (career).

You can always shotgun replace any of these components if you so desire. If this were my machine I wouldn't touch anything until I have enough information (readings) to formulate an accurate and consistent assessment of what is going on. I don't think you're there yet because I cannot explain why you see what you're seeing (in your video). If someone else more experienced than me can see what's going on then I welcome the input.

Take the voltage readings at 5J11-1 and 2J5-9 with and without C side active. This will provide additional data points.

#4659 9 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I applaud you for stating this. I have seen many times before where someone posting for help doesn't understand but simply doesn't want to admit they don't understand. So what do they do? Ignore the advice and get nowhere. Plenty of examples of this on this forum.

You are very kind to help me out and I thank you for it!

Quoted from DumbAss:

Set the DMM to DC voltage (V with straight bar above not wavy bar). Attach black lead to any ground point. This can be the ground braid for ease. Insert red lead to contact the metal in the connector at 5J11-1 and 2J5-9. Note that you will not get a reading of 25V while the A side is active. You will only get the 25V reading when the C side is active. Go to the C side test and when the C side is active look at the DMM. You should be able to hold the C side active by latching (depressing) the auto/manual switch when the C side is active.

On both 5J11-1 and 2J5-9 I am getting a reading of .680 on both A and C sides of the test.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Do the test without any connectors connected. This isolates as much as possible. If you leave connectors connected you can get interference.
See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#4N25_Opto_Couplers_in_the_Switch_Matrix for information on testing the 4N25.

THANK YOU for this! I finally understood what diode testing means after reviewing this and comparing to similar examples. I pulled the interconnect board out of the backbox (taking 6 different photos before pulling connectors) and tested the 4N25 at U1 like how your link illustrated, and U2 & U3 as well to compare the readings if nothing else:

U1
pins 1 & 2 .984
pins 5 & 6 .680
pins 4 & 6 .688

U2
pins 1 & 2 .990
pins 5 & 6 .675
pins 4 & 6 .687

U3
pins 1 & 2 .990
pins 5 & 6 .677
pins 4 & 6 .687

Pretty similar values...but I don't know what correct values are for this.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Now that's weird. I was expecting to see switch 02 closed. The software needs to see C side engagement before energizing the drive transistor. You may need to run the switch edge test (07) and ground the A/C select drive transistor and see if the switch (02) registers. This seems more unlikely to be the cause of the problem but it doesn't hurt to verify it is working correctly (i.e. the switch closes when you ground A/C select drive transistor).

Apologies, but I do not understand how to ground the A/C select drive transistor...and I'm still foggy on what the drive transistor is.

#4660 9 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

On both 5J11-1 and 2J5-9 I am getting a reading of .680 on both A and C sides of the test.

Please don't take this the wrong way but a control must be established.

  • Measure the voltage at 5J11-8,9,10 (any of those pins). It should read +25V (this is nominal so it may read up to +40V).
  • Measure the voltage at 5J11-4,5 (any of those pins). It should read +25V when the A side is selected and 0V when the C side is selected.
  • You already tested the voltage at 5J11-1,2 as above.

The purpose of this is to establish that you are measuring correctly and the system is working the way it is supposed to be working. You measure known good parts of the system to get correct results to verify this. If you aren't measuring correctly all your results are meaningless. You also cannot determine if something is wrong if you don't know the (presumed) working parts of the system are correct.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Pretty similar values...but I don't know what correct values are for this.

All the results are the same between components and the values are in acceptable range. This is something that is useful as a guide. If you are testing identical circuits and you test them identically then they should measure identical. If one of them does not measure identically to the others then you have a good reason to believe that circuit has a problem. In those circumstances, you don't necessarily need to know what a correct value is. It is the difference that gives it away.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Apologies, but I do not understand how to ground the A/C select drive transistor...and I'm still foggy on what the drive transistor is.

The drive transistor is the TIP102 (or TIP122) on the CPU board. It is a TO-220 package.

To ground an NPN transistor, you get an alligator clip and attach one end to the tab of the NPN transistor and momentarily touch the other end of the alligator clip to ground (such as ground braid or the side rail). This momentarily grounds the drive transistor and the corresponding solenoid should energize. You can do this with any of the NPN transistors on the CPU board (not the PNP transistors on the Auxiliary Power board).

To verify you are doing this correctly, first ground:

  • Q6 (solenoid 16): this should cause the lower playfield and backbox GI to blink (you should hear the relay "click").
  • Q16 (solenoid 11): this should cause the upper playfield GI to link (again you should hear the relay "click").
  • Q8 (solenoid 12): this should cause the A/C select relay to energize (the Auxiliary Power board relay should "click").

Once you've done this and feel confident then you can proceed to diagnostic test 07 (switch edges) and ground Q8. The switch test should register switch 2.

If you're interested in reading more about the Auxiliary Power board and the A/C select relay then https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Solenoid_problems has more information.

If you want to know more about the grounding of the drive transistor then https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Coil_Power_is_Not_Finding_a_Path_to_Ground has a little bit more information.

Remember that the software is only supposed to energize the multiplexed solenoids (1-8) for the C side when switch 2 is closed. It receives this switch closure through the 4N25. The 4N25 should only register closure if there is voltage present while the C side is active. Your measurements above show there is no voltage when the C side is active so you should expect switch 2 to remain open. This contradicts the results in your video where the software appears to energize the solenoid for the C side when it should not.

#4661 9 days ago

Got a question for you all:

I was watching a video where the flashers in the middle/sides of the playfield would go off when the ball hits those 3.5" rubbers in front of them. Neat effect. But mine doesnt do that. Is it in the settings somewhere or simply a rom version that I don't have?

#4662 9 days ago
Quoted from jorant:

Is it in the settings somewhere or simply a rom version that I don't have?

That effect only occurs when multiball or lock is lit (and the 3 spinners are spinning), or during multiball itself. Those double rebounds also make a deep “boom” sound as the flashers flash during that time.

All other times during play, those flashers won’t operate, and they make a different sound when hit.

#4663 8 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Please don't take this the wrong way but a control must be established.

Measure the voltage at 5J11-8,9,10 (any of those pins). It should read +25V (this is nominal so it may read up to +40V).
Measure the voltage at 5J11-4,5 (any of those pins). It should read +25V when the A side is selected and 0V when the C side is selected.
You already tested the voltage at 5J11-1,2 as above.

The purpose of this is to establish that you are measuring correctly and the system is working the way it is supposed to be working. You measure known good parts of the system to get correct results to verify this. If you aren't measuring correctly all your results are meaningless. You also cannot determine if something is wrong if you don't know the (presumed) working parts of the system are correct.

All the results are the same between components and the values are in acceptable range. This is something that is useful as a guide. If you are testing identical circuits and you test them identically then they should measure identical. If one of them does not measure identically to the others then you have a good reason to believe that circuit has a problem. In those circumstances, you don't necessarily need to know what a correct value is. It is the difference that gives it away.

My viewpoint is that everything you write is donating your time and I value that very much.

I tested each pin on both the 5J11 and 2J5 for A and C values. I present the following:

5J11 A / C
(1) .693 / .690
(2) .693 / .690 no wire
(3) 0 / .005 no wire
(4) 44.5 / 43.84
(5) 43.09 / 43.81 no wire
(6) 0 / 0
(7) 0 / 0
(8) 43.3 / 43.93
(9) 43.33 / 43.93
(10)43.34 / 43.96 no wire
(11)43.32 / 43.93
(12)43.3 / 43.97 no wire

2J5 A / C
(1) 46.53 / 46.6
(2) 77.2 / 77.2
(3) 77.2 / 77.2
(4) 0 / 0
(5) 0 / 0
(6) 0 / 0
(7) 0 / 0 no wire
(8) 46.49 / 46.73
(9) .691 / .693
(10) 77.3 / 77.0
(11) 77.3 / 77.0
(12) 46.3 / 46.7

Quoted from DumbAss:

The drive transistor is the TIP102 (or TIP122) on the CPU board. It is a TO-220 package.
To ground an NPN transistor, you get an alligator clip and attach one end to the tab of the NPN transistor and momentarily touch the other end of the alligator clip to ground (such as ground braid or the side rail). This momentarily grounds the drive transistor and the corresponding solenoid should energize. You can do this with any of the NPN transistors on the CPU board (not the PNP transistors on the Auxiliary Power board).
To verify you are doing this correctly, first ground:

Q6 (solenoid 16): this should cause the lower playfield and backbox GI to blink (you should hear the relay "click").

Check, yes I can verify that happened as it should!

Quoted from DumbAss:

Q16 (solenoid 11): this should cause the upper playfield GI to link (again you should hear the relay "click").

Check, yes I can verify that happened as it should!

Quoted from DumbAss:

Q8 (solenoid 12): this should cause the A/C select relay to energize (the Auxiliary Power board relay should "click").

Nothing

Quoted from DumbAss:

Once you've done this and feel confident then you can proceed to diagnostic test 07 (switch edges) and ground Q8. The switch test should register switch 2.

On TEST 07, again nothing.

I probably should have mentioned at some point earlier, but my MPU (CPU? I've seen both I think) is not original to this game, but it is an original Williams board. The guy I bought it from told me the original board had extensive battery acid damage and he got a replacement board from another Williams System 11 game (unknown game) that "had more features than Whirlwind used." This board also clearly had battery acid damage that was cleaned up, but there are traces that look suspect to my naked eye. I've attached a picture of what looks to be the more noticeable curiosity.

I also noticed that the left most yellow bumped causes the backglass lighting to blink when hit. Is that normal?

IMG_1180 (resized).JPG
#4664 8 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Q8 (solenoid 12): this should cause the A/C select relay to energize (the Auxiliary Power board relay should "click").

Can you measure the voltage on the metal tab of Q-8.

#4665 8 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

My viewpoint is that everything you write is donating your time and I value that very much.

You are very welcome to the help. You respond with the information requested and organize (present) the information in a simple manner. It's much more than I could ever ask for when trying to help someone. As previously mentioned I've seen people ignore the advice given when asking for help.

I also see people who can't organize their thoughts or desperately try to "get help fast" by posting requests across multiple threads and expect instantaneous responses. I ignore these people and stop helping them.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

5J11 A / C
(1) .693 / .690
(2) .693 / .690 no wire
(3) 0 / .005 no wire
(4) 44.5 / 43.84
(5) 43.09 / 43.81 no wire
(6) 0 / 0
(7) 0 / 0
(8) 43.3 / 43.93
(9) 43.33 / 43.93
(10)43.34 / 43.96 no wire
(11)43.32 / 43.93
(12)43.3 / 43.97 no wire

5J11:

  1. 25V C side
  2. Same as 1
  3. Key
  4. 25V A side
  5. Same as 4
  6. GND (ground)
  7. Same as 6
  8. 25V Fixed
  9. Same as 9
  10. Same as 10
  11. 25V Select (selected by W4)
  12. Same as 11

Your results above are expected except for two things.

  1. The 25V C side is absent
  2. The A/C voltage does not switch (25V A side solenoid power remains available when it is supposed to be switched out)
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

On TEST 07, again nothing.

Everything points to the A/C relay not working properly. What I am still having trouble understanding is why the software still tries to energize the solenoid (flasher) even when it switches to the C side but does not get the feedback from the 4N25.

Quoted from GRUMPY:

Can you measure the voltage on the metal tab of Q-8.

I agree that you should measure this. It should read +25V (or in your case it will probably read in the +40V range). If it does read +25V then do a diode test on the transistor. This is an NPN transistor.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I probably should have mentioned at some point earlier, but my MPU (CPU? I've seen both I think) is not original to this game, but it is an original Williams board. The guy I bought it from told me the original board had extensive battery acid damage and he got a replacement board from another Williams System 11 game (unknown game) that "had more features than Whirlwind used." This board also clearly had battery acid damage that was cleaned up, but there are traces that look suspect to my naked eye.

Whirlwind used more features than any other System 11 game. It has the Sound Overlay board which added 5 extra solenoids.

The board does appear to have light alkaline corrosion. It also looks like someone has replaced U42 previously. That should not be related to your issues.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I also noticed that the left most yellow bumped causes the backglass lighting to blink when hit. Is that normal?

That's an interesting observation that I missed in your original YouTube video. I will admit that I didn't look closely at the response but rather the fact that when C was active it still fired the A side. Your measurement above for 5J11 A and C show that the voltage doesn't switch but the software thinks the C side is active. Since the voltage doesn't switch but the C side is apparently active the software energizes the solenoid. This is the problem that would be seen on a Taxi before the 4N25 was implemented. This is why Williams implemented the 4N25.

Based on the energizing of solenoid 9 causing the energizing of the backbox GI relay (which should be tied to solenoid 16) and the energizing of solenoid 16 causing only the lower playfield GI to blink, I think you have a wiring problem. It's possibly at the interconnect board. I would need to see an image of the connectors of the interconnect board and the wiring of the connector at the backbox GI relay.

#4666 8 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Can you measure the voltage on the metal tab of Q-8.

I'll do that tonight when I get home. Would I test it the same way I've been testing the voltage on the pins?

#4667 8 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You are very welcome to the help. You respond with the information requested and organize (present) the information in a simple manner. It's much more than I could ever ask for when trying to help someone. As previously mentioned I've seen people ignore the advice given when asking for help.
I also see people who can't organize their thoughts or desperately try to "get help fast" by posting requests across multiple threads and expect instantaneous responses. I ignore these people and stop helping them.

5J11:

25V C side
Same as 1
Key
25V A side
Same as 4
GND (ground)
Same as 6
25V Fixed
Same as 9
Same as 10
25V Select (selected by W4)
Same as 11

Your results above are expected except for two things.

The 25V C side is absent
The A/C voltage does not switch (25V A side solenoid power remains available when it is supposed to be switched out)

Everything points to the A/C relay not working properly. What I am still having trouble understanding is why the software still tries to energize the solenoid (flasher) even when it switches to the C side but does not get the feedback from the 4N25.

I agree that you should measure this. It should read +25V (or in your case it will probably read in the +40V range). If it does read +25V then do a diode test on the transistor. This is an NPN transistor.

Should I need to remove all the cable connectors to get accurate readings?

Quoted from DumbAss:

Whirlwind used more features than any other System 11 game. It has the Sound Overlay board which added 5 extra solenoids.
The board does appear to have light alkaline corrosion. It also looks like someone has replaced U42 previously. That should not be related to your issues.

That's an interesting observation that I missed in your original YouTube video. I will admit that I didn't look closely at the response but rather the fact that when C was active it still fired the A side. Your measurement above for 5J11 A and C show that the voltage doesn't switch but the software thinks the C side is active. Since the voltage doesn't switch but the C side is apparently active the software energizes the solenoid. This is the problem that would be seen on a Taxi before the 4N25 was implemented. This is why Williams implemented the 4N25.
Based on the energizing of solenoid 9 causing the energizing of the backbox GI relay (which should be tied to solenoid 16) and the energizing of solenoid 16 causing only the lower playfield GI to blink, I think you have a wiring problem. It's possibly at the interconnect board. I would need to see an image of the connectors of the interconnect board and the wiring of the connector at the backbox GI relay.

These are the pictures I took to help me rewire everything when I tested the 4N25s. If you want close ups of anything else, let me know please.

I'll get some readings at Q8 tonight. Thanks again!

IMG_1174 (resized).JPGIMG_1175 (resized).JPGIMG_1176 (resized).JPGIMG_1177 (resized).JPGIMG_1178 (resized).JPG
#4668 8 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Should I need to remove all the cable connectors to get accurate readings?

Measure voltage with power on and leave everything connected so that you get readings that are accurate for your failure scenario. This is the control or baseline.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

These are the pictures I took to help me rewire everything when I tested the 4N25s. If you want close ups of anything else, let me know please.

I think you have an incorrect wire. I am not near an actual Whirlwind but there might be other club members that would be able to corroborate the below with an actual image if need be.

  • This is your wiring with annotation and supposition.00_ww_2j11_looks_incorrect.jpg
  • This is the solenoid table reference from the manual.01_ww_solenoid_table_reference.jpg
  • This is the wiring for 2J12 (playfield solenoids and flashers) from the manual.02_ww_2j12_reference.jpg
  • This is wiring for 2J11 (backbox solenoids and flashers) from another game's manual. Unfortunately the Whirlwind manual lacks this information so it strictly has an error. This is likely an oversight or a copy/paste error.03_other_s11_2J11_reference.jpg

I think you need to remove the BRN-GRY wire from 2J11-7 and insert it into 2J11-1. This should restore the functionality that you expect. Additional evidence for this can be seen from other images.

This leads to a disturbing thought that perhaps there are other wiring errors in the machine that could be causing your strange A/C behavior. The weird thing is that the IDC looks factory. This means either the factory got it wrong and it's been this way for the lifetime of the machine or someone re-wired the machine and got it wrong. If someone did this work then ... what else did they get wrong?

#4669 8 days ago

When I got home I set my DMM to DC, connected the black lead to the backbox strap and touched the read lead to the tab of Q8 while the machine was in attract mode. I got a reading of about .681

I say about because before I could write it down I was alarmed to discover the machine was completely locked up. I turned it off and right back on. Alphanumeric display was flickering garbled mess. It locked back up after just a few seconds.

I unplugged the machine and let it sit for about 10-15 minutes. I plugged it back in and it looked ok for a few moments. Then the flickering display started, which transitioned into nonsense, and then the machine locked up.

It now sits, unplugged.

I am completely distraught and am terrified that I just destroyed my pinball machine.

#4670 7 days ago

In the meantime, with the machine unplugged I diode tested Q8 and Q6 to compare it. Both were approximately .53 on pins 1 and 3.

I also swapped the 2J11-7 over to 2J11-1 but I will avoid plugging the machine back in until being further advised.

If no additional discussion occurs beforehand, please have a wonderful Thanksgiving if you celebrate it!

#4671 7 days ago

Hey, looking for help on mounting the center drop target opto board. Does anyone have a pic if theirs?

The board looks to need washers but is too sloppy. The manual says it needs a spring but there is too little space for one. The manual is difficult to decypher on this.

reading it in order, it sounds like:
washer
e-ring
spring
washer
opto-board
spring
washer
e-ring
grommet

but the washer has to be at the bottom touching the drop target as it is the right size to slide in the groove and the opto board doesn't fit where the shaft changes size so there has to be a washer there.

65F3FAB8-4BFD-4101-B65C-492044E70A5E (resized).jpegDF6A2D2F-71F7-4007-99FC-74C76C0EDE31 (resized).jpeg

Screenshot 2022-11-23 173929 (resized).png
#4672 7 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

When I got home I set my DMM to DC, connected the black lead to the backbox strap and touched the read lead to the tab of Q8 while the machine was in attract mode. I got a reading of about .681

It should read +25V (or probably closer to +40V).

  • Schematic of Aux Power board showing the origin of the voltage.00_aux_power_ac_relay.jpg
  • Drive wire for transistor to CPU board.01_aux_power_solenoid_12_to_cpu.jpg

You should measure voltage at 5J2-5 and 5J6-6. It should read +25V but I suspect it will read the same as you've read everywhere else (0.6V). This is more evidence there is something wrong with the AC relay on the Aux Power board. You should also have a BRN-YEL wire. Given the wiring issue just discovered you should verify that this wire is present and correctly continuous between the two points (5J2-5 and 1J12-5). Test continuity with the power off.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I say about because before I could write it down I was alarmed to discover the machine was completely locked up. I turned it off and right back on. Alphanumeric display was flickering garbled mess. It locked back up after just a few seconds.
I unplugged the machine and let it sit for about 10-15 minutes. I plugged it back in and it looked ok for a few moments. Then the flickering display started, which transitioned into nonsense, and then the machine locked up.
It now sits, unplugged.
I am completely distraught and am terrified that I just destroyed my pinball machine.

Describe the state of the diagnostic LEDs. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Normal_Game_Boot_Behavior for what is expected behavior. If you're unsure then capture (and post/link) a video.

One final thing to note is that you have a System 11A CPU board from an F-14 Tomcat. This has a speech/sound section that is (presumably) configured for 11A (from the factory). This will cause speech/sound volume (mix) level differences that will detract from your game experience. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Voice_callouts_are_much_softer_than_music.2Fsound for more information.

#4673 7 days ago
Quoted from mark532011:

Hey, looking for help on mounting the center drop target opto board. Does anyone have a pic if theirs?

I think you have either the wrong part or the wrong thread. You reference C-12212-2 whereas Whirlwind uses C-13312-1 for the 1-Bank Drop Target Assembly. It's also not in the center of the playfield.

Based on what I see in your image it does not look like a Whirlwind playfield. Probably a Cyclone playfield. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cyclone-clubmembers-only/page/28#post-6963596 for reference.

#4674 7 days ago

jeez.. you are right, I am moving to the cyclone thread....

#4675 7 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

When I got home I set my DMM to DC, connected the black lead to the backbox strap and touched the read lead to the tab of Q8 while the machine was in attract mode. I got a reading of about .681

You should have gotten @ 38 volts.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I say about because before I could write it down I was alarmed to discover the machine was completely locked up. I turned it off and right back on. Alphanumeric display was flickering garbled mess. It locked back up after just a few seconds.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I am completely distraught and am terrified that I just destroyed my pinball machine.

Your voltage test didn't do anything to cause this.

#4676 7 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

It should read +25V (or probably closer to +40V).

Schematic of Aux Power board showing the origin of the voltage.[quoted image]
Drive wire for transistor to CPU board.[quoted image]

You should measure voltage at 5J2-5 and 5J6-6. It should read +25V but I suspect it will read the same as you've read everywhere else (0.6V). This is more evidence there is something wrong with the AC relay on the Aux Power board. You should also have a BRN-YEL wire. Given the wiring issue just discovered you should verify that this wire is present and correctly continuous between the two points (5J2-5 and 1J12-5). Test continuity with the power off.

Describe the state of the diagnostic LEDs. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Normal_Game_Boot_Behavior for what is expected behavior. If you're unsure then capture (and post/link) a video.
One final thing to note is that you have a System 11A CPU board from an F-14 Tomcat. This has a speech/sound section that is (presumably) configured for 11A (from the factory). This will cause speech/sound volume (mix) level differences that will detract from your game experience. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#Voice_callouts_are_much_softer_than_music.2Fsound for more information.

Voltage at 5J2-5 (confirmed BRN-YEL) and 5J6-6 (no wire present) are both approximately .6 both with the machine off and powered up.

Successful continuity test from 5J2-5 to 1J12-5 (confirmed BRN-YEL)

I guess Pinwiki is down at the moment as the link isn't working. Will try again later.

I'm surprised by having an 11A board, and by how easily you identified it! The callouts while I have played may be softer than they should be, but I have found them to be audible. Do you believe that even if I got everything working correctly that there would be benefit in procuring an actual 11B MPU? I do not mind spending money on something like that if there is a reason to.

Video links of the LEDs and game behavior.

#4677 7 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You should have gotten @ 38 volts.

Your voltage test didn't do anything to cause this.

I do apologize if I implied that I was given bad advice as I do no believe that at all! I am very grateful for reasoned and thoughtful help. I was imagining more that I did something wrong or maybe there was a static shock.

More than anything I'm sad that I have an unplayable pin now.

#4678 7 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Voltage at 5J2-5 (confirmed BRN-YEL) and 5J6-6 (no wire present) are both approximately .6 both with the machine off and powered up.
Successful continuity test from 5J2-5 to 1J12-5 (confirmed BRN-YEL)

All the evidence points to the A/C relay. For grins, you can measure the resistance between the +25V source and the relay solenoid drive. This can be done by measuring resistance between 5J11-8,9,10 and either 5J2-5 or 5J6-6. I am guessing it should measure in the hundreds of Ohms range. To be sure, obviously, measure the resistance without power.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Do you believe that even if I got everything working correctly that there would be benefit in procuring an actual 11B MPU?

This is a decision for you to make. It depends on how much of "purist" you are and how much you want a "close to original" game experience. Some people care more about these things than others. Some people don't even know there's a problem (ignorance - is bliss) and all they care about is the flippers work and they can bat the ball around the playfield. You can make the recommended resistor and capacitor changes to convert from the 11A to 11B configuration. Making these component changes is MUCH cheaper than replacing your board.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Video links of the LEDs and game behavior.

The second video of the diagnostic LEDs is correct. This is expected based on what I see in your first video.

The first video shows the game is "working". I put working in inverted commas because you can bat the ball around the playfield. The display shows an issue and when you say "that's it", that's an indicator that either the cellar switch is not working or, more likely, the solenoid there has an issue. If you wait a little longer the game should go into a ball search and kick the ball out of the cellar. If it does this then the switch is more likely to be your problem. If it does not do this then the solenoid is more likely to be your problem. The previous video you posted shows that solenoid 14 ("Cellar Kickback" or "Under Play. Kicker") works so it's more likely to be the switch although something may have changed since the time of the video creation and the present.

The display issue is most likely to be related to current or previous alkaline corrosion. The board has remaining evidence (the previous image you posted) but you can also see a previous repair technician (or hobbyist) has made an attempt to abate the alkaline corrosion. A lot of attempts at abating alkaline corrosion don't go far enough to remove all the alkaline corrosion, or if they do they don't remove it all. Without good in focus and well illuminated images of the area around U41, it is difficult to be sure but there is evidence of previous alkaline corrosion abatement visible in the YouTube video. It is most likely U41 as this is the PIA responsible for segments a-r,com,dot. These segments correspond to the top display which is the display that is showing issues. To be sure it is the CPU board and not the display, the easiest thing to do is swap a known good from a different source. This is probably not an option available to you.

If it isn't already obvious, everything is a differential diagnosis. It's like medical diagnosis or software debugging. There's no difference in methodology - just the knowledge base.

#4679 7 days ago

Non technical support post incoming

What are the replay values up to on your Whirlwind?

We got our WW in March, and we're (me, my 13yo, and my 10yo) closing in on 3000 games played since we got it. The replay values were 3.6 / 7.2 million from the previous owner. As we started playing (badly lol) 100+ games per week, the replay value dropped and dropped, getting as low as 2.4 / 4.8 iirc. But eventually we turned a corner and we've got it climbing again. We were pretty happy when we got it back up to 3.6, and even happier when we passed it. "In your face, previous owner!" I believe was how my youngest put it haha! It's climbing more slowly now, but we've got it up to 4.6 / 9.2 million. We keep improving, so I'm sure our replay values will keep going up, but I'm super curious what other WW folks' have got theirs up to

#4680 7 days ago

I didn't realize it would change on its own, I thought you had to change it in setup. I think ours is 3.2 million but I am not 100% sure as we rarely if ever reach it. It seems like it ought to be going down if it auto-changes as I average less than 1 million per game (I find it a very difficult game!)

#4681 7 days ago
Quoted from mark532011:

I didn't realize it would change on its own, I thought you had to change it in setup

On ours it adjusts itself automatically, but I bet there are also settings where it doesn’t.

Quoted from mark532011:

(I find it a very difficult game!)

Us too! Our most frequent score range is the 500-900k range, with 549 games. Our 1.0-1.4 million range has 464 games, and the numbers drop steadily from there. We’ve had just 11 games with over 10 million scores and our highest ever was 14.1 million.

#4682 6 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I do apologize if I implied that I was given bad advice as I do no believe that at all! I am very grateful for reasoned and thoughtful help. I was imagining more that I did something wrong or maybe there was a static shock.

Nothing to apologize for, I was not sure if you knew what the reading should be.

Quoted from DumbAss:

All the evidence points to the A/C relay. For grins, you can measure the resistance between the +25V source and the relay solenoid drive. This can be done by measuring resistance between 5J11-8,9,10 and either 5J2-5 or 5J6-6. I am guessing it should measure in the hundreds of Ohms range. To be sure, obviously, measure the resistance without power.

Nothing wrong with this ^^^^ at all. But I have seen resistance measure fine in circuits that have cracked solder joints. If it were me I would remove the board and inspect the header pin solder joints and the relay solder joints.

cracked pins (resized).jpgheader pins (resized).jpg
#4683 6 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

All the evidence points to the A/C relay. For grins, you can measure the resistance between the +25V source and the relay solenoid drive. This can be done by measuring resistance between 5J11-8,9,10 and either 5J2-5 or 5J6-6. I am guessing it should measure in the hundreds of Ohms range. To be sure, obviously, measure the resistance without power.

5J2-5 to 5J11-10 was around 110 which steadily rose. I took the lead off at about 400.
5J2-5 to 5J11-8 and 9 were both about 13

Quoted from DumbAss:

This is a decision for you to make. It depends on how much of "purist" you are and how much you want a "close to original" game experience. Some people care more about these things than others. Some people don't even know there's a problem (ignorance - is bliss) and all they care about is the flippers work and they can bat the ball around the playfield. You can make the recommended resistor and capacitor changes to convert from the 11A to 11B configuration. Making these component changes is MUCH cheaper than replacing your board.

If the game was working fine other than this, I would be pretty content but the idea of creaping acid doesn't sit well with me. I added a picture that hopefully helps a little. With the way the acid would have traveled I'm shocked that U42 needed to be replaced but U41 didn't.

Quoted from DumbAss:

The second video of the diagnostic LEDs is correct. This is expected based on what I see in your first video.
The first video shows the game is "working". I put working in inverted commas because you can bat the ball around the playfield. The display shows an issue and when you say "that's it", that's an indicator that either the cellar switch is not working or, more likely, the solenoid there has an issue. If you wait a little longer the game should go into a ball search and kick the ball out of the cellar. If it does this then the switch is more likely to be your problem. If it does not do this then the solenoid is more likely to be your problem. The previous video you posted shows that solenoid 14 ("Cellar Kickback" or "Under Play. Kicker") works so it's more likely to be the switch although something may have changed since the time of the video creation and the present.
The display issue is most likely to be related to current or previous alkaline corrosion. The board has remaining evidence (the previous image you posted) but you can also see a previous repair technician (or hobbyist) has made an attempt to abate the alkaline corrosion. A lot of attempts at abating alkaline corrosion don't go far enough to remove all the alkaline corrosion, or if they do they don't remove it all. Without good in focus and well illuminated images of the area around U41, it is difficult to be sure but there is evidence of previous alkaline corrosion abatement visible in the YouTube video. It is most likely U41 as this is the PIA responsible for segments a-r,com,dot. These segments correspond to the top display which is the display that is showing issues. To be sure it is the CPU board and not the display, the easiest thing to do is swap a known good from a different source. This is probably not an option available to you.
If it isn't already obvious, everything is a differential diagnosis. It's like medical diagnosis or software debugging. There's no difference in methodology - just the knowledge base.

I was sort of worried that the gameplay video made it look like the kick out wasn't working, but the problem is that everything works until the game freezes. At that point sometimes the flippers work, sometimes not. Sometimes the GI lights go out, sometimes not. Interior coin door buttons don't function. Here's a video of me starting a test before the game ultimately crashes:

And here is a video of a restart getting the trapped balls released:

IMG_1199 (resized).JPG
#4684 6 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Nothing to apologize for, I was not sure if you knew what the reading should be.

Nothing wrong with this ^^^^ at all. But I have seen resistance measure fine in circuits that have cracked solder joints. If it were me I would remove the board and inspect the header pin solder joints and the relay solder joints.
[quoted image][quoted image]

I took a look at the back of the board and didn't see an obvious cracked joints. This picture isn't as clear as I thought when I looked on the phone screen but it does show some pretty crispy traces. Is that caused from extreme heat?

IMG_1194 (resized).JPG
#4685 6 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

Is that caused from extreme heat?

Most likely someone over fused something, then the traces start to glow when things break.

#4686 6 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

5J2-5 to 5J11-10 was around 110 which steadily rose. I took the lead off at about 400.
5J2-5 to 5J11-8 and 9 were both about 13

At this point, in my opinion, replacing the AC relay is warranted.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

If the game was working fine other than this, I would be pretty content but the idea of creeping acid doesn't sit well with me. I added a picture that hopefully helps a little. With the way the acid would have traveled I'm shocked that U42 needed to be replaced but U41 didn't.

The problem with alkaline corrosion is that there is no pattern to it. It can go in any direction from the source. Left to the reset section, up to the resistor/capacitor networks or 2.54mm 2-row headers, right to the 74154, down to U41/U42/address decode/lamp columns. It can skip over entire areas (almost seem like it's airborne = vapor). The image is not well illuminated (it appears that there is an external illumination source). A flash will provide better localized illumination. It also doesn't cover the other areas often affected by alkaline. It appears to be light but alkaline is insidious.

Quoted from AssaultSuit:

I was sort of worried that the gameplay video made it look like the kick out wasn't working, but the problem is that everything works until the game freezes. At that point sometimes the flippers work, sometimes not. Sometimes the GI lights go out, sometimes not. Interior coin door buttons don't function.

Looking at your original video again, I can see that I made an incorrect assessment. At the point the controlled lamps stop blinking is the point where the software "crashes" or hangs. You just happen to shoot the ball into the cellar but the crash clearly happens before you shoot the ball into the cellar. The music continues because it originates from the sound board and is created by a completely separate processor on that board.

  • The diagnostic buttons in the coin door not functioning is definitely proof the software has crashed.
  • The flipper not working is likely related to the flipper ground relay on the CPU board de-energizing.
  • The GI going out is an interesting issue. The GI is always on in System 11 and only controlled via a GI relay. If it goes out then there's a suggestion that something even more fundamental is going on.

Your CPU board is now "unstable". It needs to be assessed. Honestly, I think this is something you should have sent out for repair. You're systematic. You could probably learn about it if you want. It will take a LOT of back and forth. There are a few reputable repair technicians but be aware that some of them may not want to deal with alkaline corrosion.

If you're looking for a replacement board you can search for one on eBay or the Rottendog MPU9211 board is available immediately @ https://www.pinballlife.com/rottendog-williams-system-9-11-11c-mpu-board.html but be aware that there are reports of issues with Rottendog boards.

EDIT: I want to iterate what GRUMPY said in that this was NOT related to diagnostic steps that you performed. It is likely 100% coincidental. I don't see any causal relationship.

#4687 5 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Most likely someone over fused something, then the traces start to glow when things break.

Perhaps now would be a good time to check that each fuse is the correct type in the machine.

#4688 5 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

At this point, in my opinion, replacing the AC relay is warranted.

The problem with alkaline corrosion is that there is no pattern to it. It can go in any direction from the source. Left to the reset section, up to the resistor/capacitor networks or 2.54mm 2-row headers, right to the 74154, down to U41/U42/address decode/lamp columns. It can skip over entire areas (almost seem like it's airborne = vapor). The image is not well illuminated (it appears that there is an external illumination source). A flash will provide better localized illumination. It also doesn't cover the other areas often affected by alkaline. It appears to be light but alkaline is insidious.

Looking at your original video again, I can see that I made an incorrect assessment. At the point the controlled lamps stop blinking is the point where the software "crashes" or hangs. You just happen to shoot the ball into the cellar but the crash clearly happens before you shoot the ball into the cellar. The music continues because it originates from the sound board and is created by a completely separate processor on that board.

The diagnostic buttons in the coin door not functioning is definitely proof the software has crashed.
The flipper not working is likely related to the flipper ground relay on the CPU board de-energizing.
The GI going out is an interesting issue. The GI is always on in System 11 and only controlled via a GI relay. If it goes out then there's a suggestion that something even more fundamental is going on.

Your CPU board is now "unstable". It needs to be assessed. Honestly, I think this is something you should have sent out for repair. You're systematic. You could probably learn about it if you want. It will take a LOT of back and forth. There are a few reputable repair technicians but be aware that some of them may not want to deal with alkaline corrosion.
If you're looking for a replacement board you can search for one on eBay or the Rottendog MPU9211 board is available immediately @ https://www.pinballlife.com/rottendog-williams-system-9-11-11c-mpu-board.html but be aware that there are reports of issues with Rottendog boards.
EDIT: I want to iterate what GRUMPY said in that this was NOT related to diagnostic steps that you performed. It is likely 100% coincidental. I don't see any causal relationship.

I have decided to purchase a System 11B board from a Cyclone machine that a pinsider had listed as being reconditioned by K’s Arcade. Between that and a new relay I’ll see what things look like in about a week.

Sounds like there isn’t a whole lot of value in the 11A board I have but there are a few local contacts I have that might at least take a look at it. If nothing else, I have a much better idea of what to look for on any future potential PB purchases.

Thank you DumbAss and GRUMPY for walking with me a bit through my first few steps of pinball ownership!

#4689 5 days ago
Quoted from pabrimmer:

Non technical support post incoming
What are the replay values up to on your Whirlwind?
We got our WW in March, and we're (me, my 13yo, and my 10yo) closing in on 3000 games played since we got it. The replay values were 3.6 / 7.2 million from the previous owner. As we started playing (badly lol) 100+ games per week, the replay value dropped and dropped, getting as low as 2.4 / 4.8 iirc. But eventually we turned a corner and we've got it climbing again. We were pretty happy when we got it back up to 3.6, and even happier when we passed it. "In your face, previous owner!" I believe was how my youngest put it haha! It's climbing more slowly now, but we've got it up to 4.6 / 9.2 million. We keep improving, so I'm sure our replay values will keep going up, but I'm super curious what other WW folks' have got theirs up to

I didn’t know that self adjusting replay targets were a thing either but that seems like a neat idea. I like having a difficult but obtainable number to reach for. I believe I had mine set in the 3.4mil range.

There’s a coffee shop up the street from me with an Earthshaker that was set at 1.4mil replay. I felt bad that I was there for an hour and only put $1 in the machine I got so many replays. A really fun game though.

#4690 5 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:I have decided to purchase a System 11B board from a Cyclone machine that a pinsider had listed as being reconditioned by K’s Arcade

Can you test the 5 volts and 12 volts on the power supply first.

PS #1 (resized).jpg
#4691 5 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Can you test the 5 volts and 12 volts on the power supply first.
[quoted image]

4.94 and 12.5 respectively

#4692 4 days ago
Quoted from AssaultSuit:

4.94 and 12.5 respectively

Now can you check voltage here, then start a game and watch the meter until it locks up. What are you getting?

CPUWilliamsSystem11A (resized).jpg
#4694 3 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Now can you check voltage here, then start a game and watch the meter until it locks up. What are you getting?
[quoted image]

4.919

The crazy thing is, after 2 attempts to get a reading upon locking up...the game didnt freeze tonight! I got nothing on the top row of the alphanumeric display (so no idea what my score was) but otherwise I was able to play multiple games the same as I used to be able to.

#4695 4 hours ago

I’ve got my whirlwind and godzilla side by side. I love them both but i have to admit, getting a couple replacement balls in Godzilla when it drains within 1 second is pretty sweet.

Has anyone looked into doing something similar with the whirlwind? A little reprogramming and the extra ball could be lit for 4 seconds or something like that.

#4696 4 hours ago

The kick in the balls from a house ball is part of the game.

I do have to say, it's more fun when it happens to your opponent and you can pretend sympathy.

All my old school Williams do it as well as a fair few others.

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