Good job.. brings a tear to my eye haha. I wish I could find some games in this condition. Looks fun!
Good job.. brings a tear to my eye haha. I wish I could find some games in this condition. Looks fun!
Got the speaker panel reassembled with the painted molding and new display. With that hooked up I realized I could now test the sound. The sound did not work. Was able to confirm the external sound board isn't booting, so need to figure out what's wrong with it. Looks like the cpu chip is bad, but putting in a good one didn't help.
Luckily, you can still test the MPU sound even with the external board not booting, since the external board mixes the mpu sound into its amp. Which led to to discover that the MPU sound also wasn't working. Tracked that down to bad RAM, and installed new 6264 ram in place of the 6116. MPU sound boots now, and runs leon's test rom fine, but the self test doesn't act right in the game, it just keeps beeping forever and not making the test sounds it should. Troubleshooting system 11 sound seems to be a completely unexplored territory sadly; none of the repair resources I know go much beyond just quoting the manual.
Quoted from zacaj:Got the speaker panel reassembled with the painted molding and new display. With that hooked up I realized I could now test the sound. The sound did not work. Was able to confirm the external sound board isn't booting, so need to figure out what's wrong with it. Looks like the cpu chip is bad, but putting in a good one didn't help.
Luckily, you can still test the MPU sound even with the external board not booting, since the external board mixes the mpu sound into its amp. Which led to to discover that the MPU sound also wasn't working. Tracked that down to bad RAM, and installed new 6264 ram in place of the 6116. MPU sound boots now, and runs leon's test rom fine, but the self test doesn't act right in the game, it just keeps beeping forever and not making the test sounds it should. Troubleshooting system 11 sound seems to be a completely unexplored territory sadly; none of the repair resources I know go much beyond just quoting the manual.
Which samples are not working? I had few sound issues with earthshaker
Quoted from russdx:Which samples are not working? I had few sound issues with earthshaker
No samples are working. I'm just trying to do the sound test, which is supposed to play two different tones to test the hardware, but instead it makes repetitive beeps
Have you reseated all roms (game/sound) and all the cpu chips? I had a similar issue and it was just the chips needed reseating)
Quoted from russdx:Have you reseated all roms (game/sound) and all the cpu chips? I had a similar issue and it was just the chips needed reseating)
All new roms and sockets.
Over the weekend I evaporusted the door. All the rust did go away, but so did a lot of the paint IMG_20191102_193430 (resized).jpg
Received the DE 2-switch assembly, thanks a bunch to @dmacy!
Was surprised to see that neither of the switches is a toggle (for the auto up/manual down). Not sure if that's a DE thing or if that just wasn't part. Luckily the little metal U thing from the old switches stuck right in to the new switch and now it toggles fine. The new DE 2 switches seem to be compatible with the older williams switches, so I pried them out of their 2 wide mounting bracket, and inserted them into the williams 3-bracket. Perfect fit. I could technically buy another of the 2-switch assemblies to get a third switch for the HS reset, but I think I'll live with it for now..
1572904360530400156867723281017 (resized).jpgQuoted from zacaj:Over the weekend I evaporusted the door. All the rust did go away, but so did a lot of the paint [quoted image]
Received the DE 2-switch assembly, thanks a bunch to dmacy!
Was surprised to see that neither of the switches is a toggle (for the auto up/manual down). Not sure if that's a DE thing or if that just wasn't part. Luckily the little metal U thing from the old switches stuck right in to the new switch and now it toggles fine. The new DE 2 switches seem to be compatible with the older williams switches, so I pried them out of their 2 wide mounting bracket, and inserted them into the williams 3-bracket. Perfect fit. I could technically buy another of the 2-switch assemblies to get a third switch for the HS reset, but I think I'll live with it for now..[quoted image]
Rustoleum hammered black will have that door looking like normal again, that's what I've used on my Whirlwind and Earthshaker.
Figured out the issue with my MPU sound not working; a via connected to the ram had somehow emptied of solder. Still no aux sound, need to order some chips for that as it looks like none of the roms are getting selected.
Hooked up the 3 bank, worked fine. Since those worked it confirmed the 1 bank wasn't registering, so I replaced the opto and got that working.
Quoted from atrainn:Rustoleum hammered black will have that door looking like normal again, that's what I've used on my Whirlwind and Earthshaker.
That's what I used on mine.
15729170182501388259262777203836 (resized).jpg15729170424505477930425291053080 (resized).jpgGot the habitrail back from playing. Nice and shiny, but has some annoying burrs on the sharper corners. Not sure if they're safe to grind down or not
Wanting to get all the coils mounted so they stop flopping around, I rebuilt the slingshots. Was planning on doing the pops next, but realizing that they block access to a lot of the holes for posts, so I think it'll be quicker to rebuild the top side somewhat first. Will begin cleaning and polishing parts for that tomorrow.
IMG_20191105_224525 (resized).jpg
Got the aux sound board working after replacing the Ym2151 synth chip and putting in a new socket, however it played music constantly. Even going into the music test and selecting 'music off' did nothing. Put Leon's test rom back in the mpu, and was able to track down a pin on the ribbon cable connector to the sound board that wasn't toggling, even though its PIA pin was working fine. Somewhere between the pia and the header the trace was bad, which isn't that surprising considering it runs right under the battery area. Im surprised more of those lines aren't broken... Couldn't find where the trace was actually bad, so I had to install a jumper
IMG_20191105_224103 (resized).jpg
On the other hand, I think all my sound is now working, at least in test mode, although I have no idea what sounds it's actually supposed to play so it could technically still be wrong I guess. I wish there was YouTube videos of the test output for all these games. The amount of time I've needed to figure out what "four flashes" look like or how a sound test should sound is crazy
I had to file about 1/16" off of the end of my habitrail by the blue rubber bumper. The ball wanted to get stuck between the bumper and the habitrail. After filing it down all was well. That was at the very end though so there's not an obvious change in shine. Where are the sharp spots?
Quoted from yaksplat:I'd just pop those off with a file. Your knuckles will thank you later.
Yeah, I just worry it's going to harm the coating somehow or something
It's not in a location that's going to be ever touched again, the ball won't hit it. It's not like this is going in a high corrosion environment, so it's not going to be a rust location.
Dug all the parts out of the tumbler, all nice and shiny. Not quite as shiny as I'd like, but suspect I can't really expect hand polished results. My first restore I did I didn't have a tumbler so I did every screw head and post by hand with a buffing wheel on my drill :/ IMG_20191106_204702 (resized).jpgIMG_20191106_204654 (resized).jpg
Found two posts which were broken. One was one of the machine screws which snapped when I was fighting the locktite, the other is the post at the entrance of the side ramp that supports the right ramp. Looks to be a two parter, a post with a threaded hole on top, and a hex standoff, but the standoff snapped off leaving its thread in the post. Hopefully I can find a compatible replacement in my spares
Also attempted to clean all the plastic posts in the sinkIMG_20191106_180451 (resized).jpg
A lot don't want to clean up. I'd ordered some new ones to use, but mistakenly ordered all single-rubber posts, while it turns out most of the posts are actually dual rubber. Will have to manually clean some of these further and try to strategically place the rest, unless our local parts store happens to carry them
Simple green in an ultrasonic cleaner made my posts look like new. I had planned to buy new ones, but ended up not needing to.
Quoted from yaksplat:Simple green in an ultrasonic cleaner made my posts look like new. I had planned to buy new ones, but ended up not needing to.
I've tried a friend's ultrasonic a few times and was never impressed with the results, so I've never put down the money for one.
Quoted from zacaj:I've tried a friend's ultrasonic a few times and was never impressed with the results, so I've never put down the money for one.
They're great for removing grease and removing crud from plastics, but not for cleaning up metal surface issues. Although now i'm wondering about evaporust + ultrasonic cleaner.
Quoted from yaksplat:They're great for removing grease and removing crud from plastics, but not for cleaning up metal surface issues. Although now i'm wondering about evaporust + ultrasonic cleaner.
I specifically tried it on some plastic posts with multiple different liquids, and none were able to clean the dirt off, or if they did they ruined the finish of the plastic too
Installed all the posts and metal guides that go near the pops. Hit all the guides with the finishing wheel, then hand polished them.
Got some synthetic post rubbers for all the mini posts, since they seem to be wedged in, probably damaging them, and would be a pain to replace once they shred.
The upper left mini post was a big pain to get in beside the two guides, as expected from seeing other restoration threads. Luckily was able to get it in without having to modify anything like it seems you need to do on CPRs.
Finished rebuilding all six pops, nice and shiny.
IMG_20191109_125841 (resized).jpgSpent most of the day assembling the playfield. Got most of the first 'layer' down. IMG_20191110_143613 (resized).jpgIMG_20191110_180716 (resized).jpgIMG_20191110_113952 (resized).jpg
Installed a lot of plastic protector discs, had to customize a fewIMG_20191110_143617 (resized).jpgIMG_20191110_114000 (resized).jpg
Once everything was hooked up, it was safe to plug the solenoids in and test them. Most are working. Trough eject doesn't, but works if shorted. The millions plus flasher also activates the drop target and center standup flashers, which I don't think it should do.
Fan and disc motor don't work. I directly activated them, and got a hum from both, but no movement. I assume both are rusted or something, although they do turn by hand.
Took the topper off and the fan motor is indeed a bit rustyIMG_20191110_181202 (resized).jpg
Looks like the usual rivets holding it together, limiting servicabiity. Tempted to just drop it in evaporust and see what happens, but not sure if it's safe. Topper doesn't concern me that much though. At worst I can just buy some other fans and attach them for super wind.
Will try to get disc motor off too, and see if there's any obvious issues. It seems to just be a 24VDC motor? PBR has them at worst, but they're $50
Decided to take the disc motor off to see if I could disassemble it, or if not replace it. One of the mounting screws was rusted so bad it stripped when I tried to turn it, so I had to drill it outIMG_20191110_235046 (resized).jpgIMG_20191110_235056 (resized).jpg
One of the set screws was also stripped, but was able to lever it out with a metric allen wrench. Once I had the motor separated, I hooked it back up to the 24V and it ran, albeit with a weird whine. Not sure if it was just seized, or if the EMI board is bad. Can't find a schematic for that board, but the parts seem to ohm out. I can see blue sparks inside while it's running, not sure if that or the whine are normal. It seems to be going too fast, I assume the EMI board's resistor also slows it down.
Also can't figure out what size the mounting screws are. They seem to be the diameter of a 4-40 but a different thread. Will have to go to the hardware store and try to find a match before I can remount the motor and test.
Quoted from zacaj:Looks like the usual rivets holding it together, limiting servicabiity.
The motor will come apart in 4 pieces. There are two nuts on the back, remove those then the screws will un-thread. The rear bracket is threaded and the front bracket just has a through hole. Then you can remove the rotor from the stator. I did throw the stator and winding into evaporust to clean them up. You can pull the tape off of the windings too. Just be aware that you'll have to re-tape it as it'll want to start coming apart. It won't unwind, but there are cardboard insulators in there that you should remove before evaporusting it. You'll really want to rinse the windings well after the evaporust. You don't want any left in there.
Quoted from zacaj:It seems to just be a 24VDC motor?
I believe it's a 27 VAC motor. It's a really weird one. The work around if you don't want to buy a new one is to have the machine trigger a relay to switch 120V and power a new motor.
Motor: https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-1-70-HP-C-Frame-Motor-4M073
Fan blade: https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-5-1-2-CW-Facing-Discharge-5JLN4
Relay:https://www.grainger.com/product/WHITE-RODGERS-Magnetic-Relay-4E659
This combination will run you about $43
Quoted from yaksplat:I believe it's a 27 VAC motor. It's a really weird one. The work around if you don't want to buy a new one is to have the machine trigger a relay to switch 120V and power a new motor.
Motor: https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-1-70-HP-C-Frame-Motor-4M073
Fan blade: https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-5-1-2-CW-Facing-Discharge-5JLN4
Relay:https://www.grainger.com/product/WHITE-RODGERS-Magnetic-Relay-4E659
This combination will run you about $43
Im talking the disc motor in the second post, not the fan. Fan is run off 26VAC. Disc motor seems to be run off the solenoid voltage, but stepped down somewhat by the 10W 10 ohm resistor
Snow storm coming in and most places were closed for veterans day, so I put the motors on hold.
Spent most of the day assembling plastics, etc. yaksplat dropped off his old habitrail plastic, so I got the habitrail assembled and installed.
IMG_20191111_165314 (resized).jpgIMG_20191111_165323 (resized).jpgDiscovered too late that two of the screws have #8 top threads, while the rest have #6. One #8 is used for mounting the habitrail, the other I think is probably for the top of the left slingshot where the right ramp mounts?
For the habitrail mount, I instead used a different screw, with a longer top thread. It's long enough that the hex spacer can't quite tighten all the way down, so the ramp doesn't clamp down on the plastic. I find that plastics with stuff mounted on top of them like that tend to crack, so trying to avoid that here.
IMG_20191111_134733 (resized).jpgGot the side ramp installed. Was a big pain getting it all lined up. Not sure what it is with this machine and stuff not fitting when it goes back on...
Installed the new ramp flap and the cliffy protector. Had to use larger screws to hold the flap and the ramp in place since the plastic was so destroyed underneath, but it seems to have worked out alright. Ball can glance on the edge of the screw slightly but doesn't affect the shot much. Tried to align everything so that the cliffy sat behind the metal guide below it to provide a smooth transition and help hold the ramp in place. IMG_20191111_193120 (resized).jpgIMG_20191111_193137 (resized).jpg
Used the flippers for the first time to test the side ramp, and forgot that I didn't have the discs installed, so the ball dropped straight down onto the transformer Also discovered that I'd wired the right flipper switch backwards so the staging was messed up.
Since I had the ball out I started testing out everything. Inlanes and orbits seem to register correctly, pops and slings worked good. The right scoop wasn't registering, which is weird since I never touched that switch. Had to bend it pretty far for it to register consistently too. Lock switches are also all messed up. Most of them are sitting way too high; the ball can't roll down over them. Another case where nothing should have changed, unless I messed something up reassembling the switches. Outhole switch was also out of adjustment.
I've still got a lot of weird flasher issues. Some aren't lighting when they should, or are very dim. Some are lighting 2-3 flashers when they should be lighting just one. I'm guessing there may be an issue on the aux power board with the diodes or something, will have to pull it and go through them all, or try swapping it with my Taxi.
Quoted from zacaj:Since I had the ball out I started testing out everything. Inlanes and orbits seem to register correctly, pops and slings worked good. The right scoop wasn't registering, which is weird since I never touched that switch. Had to bend it pretty far for it to register consistently too. Lock switches are also all messed up. Most of them are sitting way too high; the ball can't roll down over them. Another case where nothing should have changed, unless I messed something up reassembling the switches. Outhole switch was also out of adjustment.
I've still got a lot of weird flasher issues. Some aren't lighting when they should, or are very dim. Some are lighting 2-3 flashers when they should be lighting just one. I'm guessing there may be an issue on the aux power board with the diodes or something, will have to pull it and go through them all, or try swapping it with my Taxi.
Not sure if this helps but I had simular issue with my earthshaker rebuild, the upper left flipper coil was bad(did not know this at the time) so when i went to flip the upper left flipper the right ramp flashers also lit up, it was really weird, swapping the coil fixed the issue. Having bad coils / diodes can definitely cause weird grounding issues like that.
Quoted from zacaj:I've still got a lot of weird flasher issues. Some aren't lighting when they should, or are very dim. Some are lighting 2-3 flashers when they should be lighting just one. I'm guessing there may be an issue on the aux power board with the diodes or something, will have to pull it and go through them all, or try swapping it with my Taxi.
I was wrestling with this one on mine. I was checking and changing transistors and diodes that were a bit out of spec and it turned out to be the 5W power resistor. I've never seen one of those short internally until now. So don't ignore those while checking.
Quoted from yaksplat:I was wrestling with this one on mine. I was checking and changing transistors and diodes that were a bit out of spec and it turned out to be the 5W power resistor. I've never seen one of those short internally until now. So don't ignore those while checking.
You mean, on the interconnect? Or are there ones somewhere else?
Got the proper screws to remount the disc motor. It spun with the playfield up, but wouldn't spin with the playfield down. Eventually some fine adjustments fixed that. Now it spins, but seems to stop very quickly. You don't get any of the longer spins I seem to remember. Not sure if it's supposed to have momentum to spin down vs stopping dead? Will have to examine videos.
Still have had no luck with the flasher issue. I don't have the back panel installed yet, so I don't think the overlay solenoid board would have an effect. Tested all the diodes on the aux board, none were shorted. Tried to document the exact issues:
#7 Standup flasher works, but the drop targets should also flash with it and stay off
#8 the millions plus flashes correctly, but the compass does not flash. Standup and drop also flash when they should not
#1 bottom right flasher, works, but is very dim. drop target and standup flashers also light dimly, they shouldn't light at all.
It's hard to make any sense of the mess of a circuit these run on, there doesn't seem to be any complete diagram like wpc has. Seems like the mpu, interconnect, and aux power board are all involved.
Will check resistors tomorrow.
Quoted from zacaj:Still have had no luck with the flasher issue. I don't have the back panel installed yet, so I don't think the overlay solenoid board would have an effect. Tested all the diodes on the aux board, none were shorted. Tried to document the exact issues:
#7 Standup flasher works, but the drop targets should also flash with it and stay off
#8 the millions plus flashes correctly, but the compass does not flash. Standup and drop also flash when they should not
#1 bottom right flasher, works, but is very dim. drop target and standup flashers also light dimly, they shouldn't light at all.
It's hard to make any sense of the mess of a circuit these run on, there doesn't seem to be any complete diagram like wpc has. Seems like the mpu, interconnect, and aux power board are all involved.
Will check resistors tomorrow.
All those flashers are part of the C side relay on switched coils circuit. Issue is most likely with aux board or something is being grounded some where.
Screenshot_20191113-085132_Drive (resized).jpg
Quoted from zacaj:Got the proper screws to remount the disc motor. It spun with the playfield up, but wouldn't spin with the playfield down. Eventually some fine adjustments fixed that. Now it spins, but seems to stop very quickly. You don't get any of the longer spins I seem to remember. Not sure if it's supposed to have momentum to spin down vs stopping dead? Will have to examine videos.
The discs have very low angular inertia. They stop as fast as they start.
Fixed all the flasher issues. Turns out it was one very simple problem. I went through all the sockets checking wire colors, wondering if there was a short or I'd crossed two sockets, and realized that I'd forgotten to install the 'millions' flasher! The wires were still taped off, buried in the giant harness, and the two orange power wires were *not* connected to each other. So part of the flasher power chain was broken, meaning that instead it just acted as a common wire connecting them, which meant that a few didn't work when they should, and the rest would power the extra flashers through the spare bit of wire. I reattached the two power wires and all the flashers are working, besides from the missing 'millions'. Of course, one of my new flasher sockets was DOA, so I'm one short (somehow didn't order spares), so will need to add that to the next order.
Quoted from zacaj:Got the right ramp installed with new flap. Was a giant pain getting the lift flap to set down correctly. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the three support posts to line up. Apparently some games only have two?[quoted image][quoted image]
I recall that lift flap a major PITA too.
Enjoying the rebirth of this machine.
Compared my discs to some online and mine are definitely way slower and less smooth. Measured the resistor on the motor board, but it read correctly at 10 ohms. I put alligator clips on both sides to bypass it, and the discs spun very fast, possibly too fast, which would make sense since I'm probably overvolting it. I was still suspicious of the resistor, but I didn't have any other resistors on hand near 10 ohm, 10W. I did have a 120 ohm, 10W though, which in parallel should result in 8.5ohms, which should be pretty close. I put that on and immediately the discs feel much better. They act like normal but not crazy like with no resistor. So I'm hoping that the resistor is bad, and maybe can't pass the current necessary or something, since I don't think 8.5 would be that much stronger than 10 normally. Will order a new 10 ohm resistor to replace it and see.
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