You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Sticky.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Quoted from TheLaw:It's good for n00bs and suckies becasue it does just what a video game's point it; make something that's difficult easy to play.
If it wasn't for pinball arcade I doubt I would have ever gotten back into pinball or bought machines.
It does wonders for the value of machines emulated in pinball arcade as well.
It seems you are completely missing the point. One day you might all be thanking pinball software for saving pinball hardware.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nobody cares about "pushing the technology further" beyond an actual tiny minority of collectors. Stern games are still much better than anything the novelty companies have put out LCD or no...and now Stern is finally getting around to LCDs so even that lame burn doesn't hold water anymore.
It's pinball. The last time we "pushed technology forward" to any significant degree was Pin2K and those games sucked. The best games are going to be what people want and Stern is making the best games right now.
The "tiny minority" of people are buying thousands of brand new Stern games a year. Because, still, the majority of people are buying games to play, not to impress their neighbors with some dazzling innovation known as a "tv screen." I still don't know why this is supposed to revolutionize pinball - I carry a TV screen in my pocket every second of the day. An LCD's ability to impress me is pretty limited.
It's kind of like cars. The internal combustion engine is still the same thing powering cars 100 years ago. Sure, there's newfangled hybrids and electrics, but that's for the tiny minority. In the end, it doesn't matter that my sister's minivan is powered by early 20th century technology, she doesn't care.
Cars dude. Mic drop.
This is flawed. It's nothing like cars first of all as although new cars use internal combustion engines they are lightyears ahead of their classic counterparts. You can make power with a 3.0 liter turbo six cylinder or even a 2.0 liter four-cylinder that big V8's could only dream about. Not to mention do it with fuel efficiency and emissions those classic engines simply are not physically capable of.
I care about pushing technology further and one of the things holding pinball back is the lack of this push. Multimorphic fortunately is doing something interesting but Stern is cookie cutter and stuck in the past. Pins should have Wi-Fi connectivity out of the box. Software should update automatically. Scores should have cloud storage. You should be able to enter online tournaments at any time. Challenge other pin owners head to head. These are just a few things that would help pinball.
Your thinking is great for keeping the hobby stagnant and attracting nobody new. Nobody actually into cars cares about your sister's minivan.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This is flawed.
Nothing is "stagnant." The hobby has attracted countless people over past 5 years with majority of games being the same tech as 25 years ago. It's pinball. Nobody cares about exciting new tech innovations, that's not why people like pinball.
And everybody cares about my sisters minivan.
And of course it's like cars. EVERYTHING is like cars.
If you're telling me technological innovation at Stern isn't stagnant then you're not paying attention what they release.
How does nobody care when I'm tellin you right now I care and there are manufacturers producing technologically advanced tables such as Heighway, Dutch Pinball, and Multimorphic? Do you just live in your own little pinball bubble?
Did you like pinball better when it didn't have flippers?
A better question is why anyone should read the opinion of someone who talks about his sister's minivan .
Quoted from Homepin:Your comments only apply to a small percentage of pinball "collectors". The vast majority prefer pinball to be just that - PINBALL! Not glorified video games (using large LCD screens etc).
The entire appeal of pinball is the clunky mechanical action (mixed with the unique art). This can't be, and isn't, replicated with video or any video emulation like virtual pinball. WiFi and other technology "might" pacify some but won't make pinball any better. Cloud - don't make me laugh, look at how that is working out, security issues, storage qty issues - forget that.
Heighway and Dutch Pinball are essentially making conventional pinball machines in the traditional sense. Some new innovations for sure but MAINLY they are conventional pinball machines as we have known them for years - good on them both!
We have market research, as does Stern, that breaks down pinball collectors/enthusiasts/casual players and our results match. People who crave technological advances in pinball are very much in the minority. This might change as people age/die/interest wanes etc but that isn't what MOST people currently want or expect from pinball.
If the above wasn't true, current machines would be selling for $500 because "nobody would want them" and we all know that isn't the case at all.
Pinball companies using TV screens to replace backglasses/playfields etc will find the above out the hard way. It is NOT what the majority want. You can count on Homepin to be making REAL pinball machines with REAL clunking mechanical action including a REAL knocker and NOT a large TV screen with video running on it.
Let collectors collect and let manufacturers innovate bringing new players to the game.
Who is saying anything about virtual pinball? It can introduce people to the game but it isn't a replacement for the real thing.
Exactly, traditional aspects with innovations. We haven't even scratched the surface of what internet connectivity alone can bring.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You are missing my point entirely.
The HOBBY and the industry aren't stagnant. They are both growing.
Technological innovation is not important. Stern doing nothing particularly innovative over the past 20 years and continuing to thrive is proof of this.
Pinball is pinball. I'm tired of hearing about how important innovation is. All the "innovations" I've seen - giant LCD screens, virtual pinball - suck ass.
I think you're missing my point that innovation is stagnant. It took how long for Stern to move beyond the old school DMD? What year is it again?
Technological innovation is highly important in order to bring in younger people who grew up with technology (clearly not you). You come off like an old man shaking his fist at the first solid state pinball machine because you are scared of pushing things forward.
Pinball is pinball meaning it is essentially a blank canvas for people to create a playfield for a ball to interact with it any thousands of ways. Pinball is not what you think it has to be. Who knows where it can evolve to.
I love the giant LCD screens and what Multimorphic and Heighway are doing. You buy the machines you like and I'll buy the machines I like.
Quoted from Homepin:This is part of the problem. Many people will stop paying such ridiculous prices for a "fancy toy" and this is partly why operators are not siting pinball machines. The return on investment simply isn't there.
What we need is a bunch of affordable, fun games that attract the interest of Joe public - we do NOT need "technical innovation" - that is a nonsense.
When a pinball machine can be purchased by an operator for US$3~4K MAXIMUM we will see more on site because the ROI will be there for them to do so. This is not my opinion but fact based on research.
Yes we do need technological innovation. We need new ways of thinking and new designers. If you want the same old crap just go to Stern or buy an older machine.
I can't wait for a machine that let's you do online tournaments and challenge people head to head over the internet. Maybe include cameras for virtual tournaments around the world. Open up pinball to thousands of new people with social media aspects. Stream your games live making for instant tutorials. This is just basic stuff that could be done.
Lulz at the old men who don't get it.
Quoted from trunchbull:In ten years? The teensy pinball resurgence thanks mostly to millennials going to barcades and playing Pinball Arcade will probably fade. The handful who got into it and were able to afford it will maintain their collections and create a network of private pinball visitation with occasional bring-a-friend parties to try to keep things going. The boutique pin manufacturers will shrivel up. Stern will produce some dried-husk games like they did in the 2000s for the occasional pizza parlor purchase and vanity gameroom purchase ("gifts for mom and dad" catalogs). The aging baby boomers will begin to die off, probably bequeathing their pins to their kids, who will either disinterestedly sell them to the next generation of collectors, let them sit around collecting dust in a storage unit, or keep and play them themselves. The barcade bubble will pop but a sliver of gamers will continue to play virtual pinball and lament the loss of the real-life hobby.
*Nico's "These Days" plays*
I hate to say it but this is probably the most realistic assessment.
Quoted from Davidus56:CrazyLevi. The name fits. You are clueless.
Sticky nails it. VR is the beginning of the end for pinball. Haptic feedback in the right user interface - that allows table nudges/tilts, at a reasonable price, will make pinball games superfluous. Operators will be able to host VR tables, charge 25 or 50 cents, with no pinball maintenance and make buckets of money. I'm going to start unloading my collection.
I didn't say VR was the end or that pinball would end due to it. I stated I wanted to see more technological innovation on physical machines.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:THOUSANDS of people are doing just that, every year. They love Stern because they are putting out the highest quality, traditional version of the product they love, pinball. People can't get enough of "the same old crap."
You keep trying to play the "I'm young, I'm hip, and I'm beautiful" card but you clearly don't get it. People aren't into pinball for "innovation" they are in it for pinball. We don't need new ways of thinking.
We could use some new designers since most of them are so old.
Should we radically change Baseball because it's the "same old crap," with almost no innovation beyond the DH and Instant Replay over the past 140 years? I mean after all, young people just aren't into it. Since you are down with the youth, maybe you can let me know what the hip, progressive trendsetters think about that. Something has to be done before baseball disappears!!!
No, you don't get it. Thousands of people can stick with the old way of thinking and go to Stern or buy classic machines. Cool beans, yay, same old stuff.
I'm into pinball innovation. Don't tell me who is into what because you are not the self-anointed mouthpiece that decides what pinball is.
Should we radically change baseball? This is your example? I get there's a bat and a ball but baseball doesn't rely on technology to function. Pinball by definition incorporates a table and it varies significantly table to table depending on the design. You don't watch one baseball game where the pitcher starts throwing from first base and you get 10 points per home run and you can tackle the baserunner, do you?
That is the whole point. Pinball provides you with a canvas allowing for far greater imagination and variation. My point is pinball can go much further than it has incorporating new ways of thinking including technology. Why be stuck with traditional aspects? It's not even a matter of technology but new ideas as well.
If you are equating pinball to baseball you do not understand either.
Quoted from Rarehero:Pinball isn't a video game. You can play video games online, because every game is the same. Every pinball machine is different...level could be different, posts can be different, wax can be different, pitch can be different. The only way to compete on a pinball machine that's "fair" is for players to play on the same machine. Otherwise, it's meaningless.
Nobody said it was a video game.
Do pinball tournaments exist? Yes.
Now imagine being able to host a tournament without having to drive somewhere and maybe get your Russian or Chinese friends playing too without having to fly over because their machine has internet connectivity.
Do you still write letters by hand and mail them too? Mail isn't a video game you know.
Quoted from gweempose:I think this view is a little shortsighted. You're thinking about it only in terms of traditional competition, but there is so much more potential than that. Imagine a scenario where you would play simultaneously and have your actions directly affect things on the other player's machine. If done right, this would be cool as hell.
Oh wow yet another cool idea. But no.. no.. no. Pinball HAS to be stuck in the past and new ideas are pointless.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I've played it. I'll say it. It's Not very good.
I enjoy it. Then again, this is about what you think isn't it?
Quoted from Rarehero:You completely missed the part that a tournament held on different machines is pointless. If the games are set up differently, your scores are irrelevant. Besides -if pinball isn't inherently fun to you - and playing against someone in Russia is the key to making it fun again...just quit pinball, please. You don't get it.
It's not pointless whatsoever. Bride of Pinbot 2.0 shows very easily how you can display scores with different versions. You can simply specify you must have X software revision before entering the lobby. This is difficult for you to understand?
I'm trying to include more people in pinball and you're telling me I don't get it. Just bury your head in some old machine already while others push things forward.
Quoted from Rarehero:Innovation will be when someone comes up with some interesting new mechs/toys/features under the glass. The 90's games we hold in high esteem aren't good because the display & sound was better....it's because shit was happening on the playfield we'd never seen before.
-Addams: We never saw a hand come out of a box and steal a ball.
-Dracula: We never saw a ball "levitate" across a playfield
-Getaway: We never saw a ball whiz around a racetrack at high speeds
-Shadow: We never saw controllable ramp divertors & a upper playfield "breakout" game
-Dr. Who: we never saw a triple-level toy like the Time Expander
Now, I clearly love new games - but no one has been innovative under the glass in a LONG time. Sure we have LEDs and color displays...but what's under the glass is more or less the same, although usually less interesting than what we played in the last. Internet tournaments are not an innovation. It's a pointless feature that wouldn't move the dial on play or sales if implemented. Something truly new and mindblowing under the glass? I welcome it and am waiting for it.
Yep, things happening on the playfield you had never seen. More ramps, more magnets, more ways to play, more tech, etc. Exactly what I'm saying yet it isn't processing for some.
So incorporating new technology to influence the ball and playfield in new ways is something you welcome? Glad we agree then.
Quoted from toyotaboy:I just blogged about this very thing a week ago:
http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com/2016/08/what-made-williams-pinball-good.html
Williams tables had that "ooh what did they come up with this time?" vibe. I don't know why stern chooses to not innovate on layouts. Do they not have the time? Are they worried about ball hangups? (see Avengers hulk toy). About the only title that felt somewhat innovative was metallica with sparky, and even then it's not really interactive (but at least it moves neat), similiar to medievel madness castle.
I'll add to that list:
* banzai run - vertical playfield, what?
* whitewater - bigfoot toy that shoves a log into the ball? a ramp that looks like a drain swirl?
* No good gofers - ramp that pops up out of the playfield to shoot the ball into a giant clear plastic ramp in the back?
* Pin2k - obvious
*
I think Stern just cares about keeping costs low and churning out machines quickly. It's just rinse and repeat with a new theme/license. It just feels so... generic to me.
Williams machines feel special. There's something about them that is difficult to articulate.
Quoted from dookski:I think the social link/online play could be something that could save pinball. It certainly is problematic as each machine is unique- but there's no reason we couldn't play anyone else's machine via a simple video link and interface. Can you imagine watching someone else play your game across the country? A player wouldn't even need the equipment, just a computer and a subscription.
It's like saying it's problematic because people have different computers. Frankly, the same table is far more similar than all the people who play on hardware with huge variances these days yet their scores are all tallied, recorded, and referenced right?
Maybe look at the positives instead of inventing problems that are not even problems.
Quoted from dookski:I think the social link/online play could be something that could save pinball. It certainly is problematic as each machine is unique- but there's no reason we couldn't play anyone else's machine via a simple video link and interface. Can you imagine watching someone else play your game across the country? A player wouldn't even need the equipment, just a computer and a subscription.
It's like saying it's problematic because people have different computers. Frankly, the same table is far more similar than all the people who play on hardware with huge variances these days yet their scores are all tallied, recorded, and referenced right?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It is funny that all the people who accuse people here of being old men who are out of touch keep trotting out the internet and social media as the way we'll get kids into pinball.
You all sound like 50-year old upper management types throwing around buzzwords at a staff meeting while the 20-year old interns roll their eyes.
Pinball is pinball and people are gonna like it because they like pinball. The only benefits all this scary modern tech offer to pinball is from an operator/maintenance standpoint. Nobody gives a shit about comparing scores online, nobody wants to play pinball against somebody online...this is all "your dad at tha club" nonsense that sounds hip but isn't going to make a whit of difference as far as expanding the player base or getting anybody interested in pinball.
Stop trying to put lipstick on this pig. It's pinball. Like it or don't, but stop trying to insist we can crowbar it into Facebook somehow and that wi-fi will somehow factor into the player experience in 10 years.
If nobody gives a shit about comparing scores online why does pinside allow you to upload scores?
Why are you online talking about pinball if online doesn't matter?
Not only is internet connectivity the pinball driving force for pinball information today it has yet to reach its potential. You're saying online connectivity doesn't matter when you are using online functions to discuss pinball. You're a hypocrite.
Quoted from metallik:Greg is a goof but he's correct - you cannot have any meaningful competition using different examples of the same game. There's a billion point difference between a TZ slot that ejects uncontrollably to the tip of the right flipper vs a TZ slot that ejects to a nice bounce/trap.
Yes you can and people have been doing it for decades. It's just new to old pinball people and because it's new that means it's scary.
Quoted from Rarehero:Just because I use the Internet to find a good restaurant, doesn't mean I want to watch porn on my sandwich.
Have you considered using the internet to find a good psychiatrist?
Quoted from fugus:The only score that matters is the score on that machine. Its not pinball arcade where everybody is playing the same game. Pins vary hugely from pin to pin.
Considering the role Pinball Arcade plays in bringing new people to pinball you might want to pay attention to it.
Sure, you can't guarantee every machine is 100% the same.
Vary hugely though? Really?
Why should variance discount head to head play anyway? Two NBA Fastbreaks aren't EXACTLY the same yet it seems to work just fine. Probably because the variance isn't as huge as you are making it out to be.
Whether you get it or not it's going to happen. It's only a matter of time.
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Sticky.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/where-will-the-pinball-hobby-be-in-10-years?tu=Sticky and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Ladera Ranch, CA