If by "new stuff" you mean 90's DMD machines, you're right... that's where the collector market is right now.

If you mean new Stern titles, you should check your use of "we". Stern has made a couple of ok titles, but little that will have the impact of the B/W DMD titles. They haven't pushed the technology forward either... JJP has, Dutch has... and Stern is still building stuff that could have been built a quarter-century ago.

You are in a tiny minority.

Nobody cares about "pushing the technology further" beyond an actual tiny minority of collectors. Stern games are still much better than anything the novelty companies have put out LCD or no...and now Stern is finally getting around to LCDs so even that lame burn doesn't hold water anymore.

It's pinball. The last time we "pushed technology forward" to any significant degree was Pin2K and those games sucked. The best games are going to be what people want and Stern is making the best games right now.

The "tiny minority" of people are buying thousands of brand new Stern games a year. Because, still, the majority of people are buying games to play, not to impress their neighbors with some dazzling innovation known as a "tv screen." I still don't know why this is supposed to revolutionize pinball - I carry a TV screen in my pocket every second of the day. An LCD's ability to impress me is pretty limited.

It's kind of like cars. The internal combustion engine is still the same thing powering cars 100 years ago. Sure, there's newfangled hybrids and electrics, but that's for the tiny minority. In the end, it doesn't matter that my sister's minivan is powered by early 20th century technology, she doesn't care.

Cars dude. Mic drop.

You are wrong - full cash payout.

he might get some free beer at the bar on league nights but generally nobody gets a cut besides the house for these kinds of things.

The broad issue with regard to collecting expensive, heavy and large things is not just acquisition price -- it's also the space requirement and immobility of the collection.

Gen-X/Y/Zers are burdened on an increasing basis with massive debt from college, which knocks them down materially in terms of being able to buy real property with enough space to house same. This also makes them far more likely to need to remain mobile in their living arrangements so they can take advantage of economic opportunity, which means leasing and smaller living spaces -- neither of which is conducive to large and immobile collections of anything. I had the money to collect pinball machines *long* before I had either the space or stability of location -- and you need all three to be a viable collector.

The existing pair of manufacturers have shifted their pricing model to a degree that routing new machines is no longer an economically-defensible act. While there are exceptions in terms of machines that can "earn out" they're few and far between, which means that the secondary and/or collectors market are all that keeps any sort of retail presence for pinball alive.

I don't believe pinball will collapse within the next 10 years, but the bubble that exists now in regard to "value" of these machines is very likely to pop, and when it does it will have a tremendous "flooding" impact on the secondary market. There will be plenty of holdouts when it comes, but come it will, as with all bubbles. Odds are this takes the current manufacturers out as well simply because they have failed to innovate when it comes to the means to improve the cost structure of what they build (so-called "modern" machines are flat-out fails in this regard; I could take half the assembly cost out of a modern pinball quite easily, which frankly astonishes me.)

Those who collect because they like to play won't care much, but those who collect with a glint in their eye of "price appreciation" are going to find half of their so-called "investment", or more, go up in smoke.

Of course this simply means that those of us who sat out the ramp in price, and who collect because we like to play, will add to our collections while those who were playing the bubble game will be crying in their beer.

You really believe this?

People sitting it out and waiting for "the bubble" to pop are gonna be some non-pinball owning muthafuckas for a very, very long time.

I remember some blowhard in RGP telling us all 15 years ago "in 20 years, those woodrails are all gonna be worthless!!!"

I lauded him on his genius and told the guy - a fat, cranky old bastard (pinballjim was his name) - to enjoy his windfall of free woodrails when he's 75. He's almost there now! I guess he won.

I just hope Stern pf issues fixed in the next 10 years.

Thanks for the replys...so no advertising big cash payouts....Maybe that will change in 10 years, or we can nominate Pinball
to be played in X games, or Summer Olympics.

What I think we all might want in 10 years, is a global, expansive growth! Imagine going back to a dozen new games a year!!!

Woodrails are mostly worthless compared to even later EMs. When I see them, they're usually under $500.

He was talking about Mermaid.

And he's still wrong. And probably still fat.

Probably.

I thought that games of skill could have tournaments. So since pinball was proven in court to be a game of skill I thought it was perfectly legal. I know lots of pool halls run tournaments with cash prizes so I would think this would be the same thing? Stern even had or has not sure if they still sale it a tournament add on to games with the winner receiving cash prizes. Really curious about this.

Legal to have pins in New York City. And wasn't in court, but before city officials. Nothing to do with Federal, State, or City laws, rules and regulations, concerning cash prizes.

The Stern TOPS system can be set up for other things besides cash.

LTG : )

Pinball isn't going anywhere (but it will have it's dips). When I was a kid, we had TOMY and Coleco toy pinballs. In the early 2000's we had zizzle. Today we have a cheap plastic star wars toy pinball by some chinese company. These toy companies wouldn't be building them if they didn't think they'd sell any, and pinball is pinball as far as impressioning a kid. Pinball isn't just some device that nobody will care about in the future, that's like saying sports like baseball and football will eventually go away because kids in the future will be bored with manual sports, and will just want to play on game consoles and social media.

My prediction is that Stern will have released every low hanging fruit vault edition that they'll eventually cave and either run some SEGA titles, or less popular Stern titles like striker, Casino and CSI.

So this brings me back to why arent there payout pins in Vegas?

Who cares if a few games make or lose money, wouldnt it bring crowds?

Casinos don't much care for games where they don't have a guaranteed edge. You think they're just going to let a guy like Elwin walk up and take their money with virtually no risk?

I've wondered this myself. I assume it has something to do with pinballs always needing some form of attention. It's one thing to have a sticky switch giving you free points towards a high score or free game but you change points to money and its a whole different concern. Also, how do you deal with an angry customer who gets a stuck ball or hits a switch that doesn't register or has a two flipper reset just as they are about to hit a payout of some sort. Seems to me that pinball is too mechanical to be a reliable device to gamble money on.

for them to be interested in an actual skill game like pinball, it'd have to be a zero-sum game where two or more people were playing against each other and only one (at most) could win, plus there would have to be a time limit.

but really, why would they bother when countless people fly in to town every day to dump millions of dollars into slot machine simulators?

Just like extra ball scores rise, the game could get more difficult past break even.
Sure, he could play for 6 hours and win $100. I dont think that would be an issue.
Even as a match gives a free game, something random, but monetary.

Im sure Casinos want money from every square foot, but slots are dying, and traffic is what they want first.
Our friend on Pinside that runs the arcade in NY NY, runs redemption, and Pins have been tried in redemption,
but in Pinball History didnt we have roughly 20 years of growth with payout pins?

I agree in some ways, but the "unreliability" issue would be valid for any commercial application.

Im not thinking big money, or continuous money, just something more......shoot everything motivate today in this world and in this hobby is about money. Pinball takes it in for entertainment. Tournaments thrive because of the cash payouts.
Its a vending machine, it takes in money.....all thats missing is a payout...

Just thinking out loud....

Its an oddity, a "gimmick".

Certainly if a Casino said, "Win $100 playing a GBLE pin, and had 5 along a wall, we on pinside would know about it, debate it, and go play it!

Wouldnt we? We would play it without a payout...

I find it boring, now that Vegas has been sterilized from the old gambling pieces. The Horse Races at Ceasars or MGM, Massive Coin Pushers, Spinning wheels are going away...just like other mechanical ways to drop my coins in.

We'd be just like the MIT blackjack team.

True. I was thinking more as is with currently released machines. I'm sure if pins became more of a gambling device manufacturers could beef up systems and such and make things even more reliable. Plus when payout money is on the line operators will be more motivated to keep a machine in good working order.

I think it's a great idea and I would love to be able to win some money playing pinball on location. Or perhaps get some kind of redemption payout. Maybe have the backbox be a sort of prize hub payout machine that dispenses an Ipod or some other high dollar prize for achieving Grand Champ. What a motivator to play to see the reward staring you in the face from behind the backglass! Kids would certainly be interested in playing pinball if it gave you a prize like a Stacker or Key game.

I thought vegas 2047 (virtual pinball with cash returns) was supposed to bridge pinball into gambling? virtual is about the only way they could guarantee they have the advantage
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-virtual-pinball-casino-game-vegas-2047-recently-unveiled

Makes me think of the goals of SafeCracker.....

I dont know, it just seems that "Free Money", like lottery and Casinos, well people buy into the idea.

We had video Casinos all over Florida before shut down. I have a Coin Pusher with the Florida Statue listed exploiting the fact that it was vending, as it was self serve candy...the same skirting of 1930s slot machines...if it gave you Candy, it wasnt gambling.

Shoot, what would happen at a pinball show, if someone brought a modded game with a coin dispenser hooked up to kick out quarters for high score, match, special, random award settings?
Im guessing this is still illegal on books.

I know, we dont want a negative image brought back, but to think Roger had to prove "skill" so recently......

Hey, they say you can't take it with you but you can with pins!

LE Gorgar coffins anyone?

Already exists.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-virtual-pinball-casino-game-vegas-2047-recently-unveiled

The way they do it, the house always has an advantage, however if you have a good game, their advantage is less. Example: if you loose, there is some random payout where your chances of wining are 45%, if you shoot well, your chance to win the random payout is 48%. (Lots of folks in the thread could not follow that, I hope it is clear!)

Thanks for this link! Missed this. Do you know if this is on location in Vegas anywhere?
Looking for a video.....

What I see here in the Seattle area is more and more barcades, more and more pins in regular bars and restaurants, growing numbers of casual pinball players and collectors, and a growing competitive pinball scene with multiple pinball leagues, open pinball tournaments about every night of the week in a different bar or arcade, and bigger turnouts than ever at tournaments, from the smaller bar ones to the big ones at the NW Pinball & Arcade Show and NW Pinball Championships, as well as people travelling from here to Portland and B.C. for tournaments. Our show had a fairly significant jump in attendees this year, I think we hit 3,000 unique individuals for the first time. I really feel like there is a new pinball renaissance that's still growing and spreading out to the cities that don't have a lot of tournaments and league play. Sure, it will slow down again eventually, but there are a ton of people in the 18-29 age range playing in tournaments and going to shows that will be buying our games when we sell them off eventually.

And that's the thing, you're in a huge city. Seattle has always been way ahead of the curve as in the pinball scene it seemed to me, and that's awesome news, but can it spread to the middle?

As long as there are game rooms, man caves, etc. Pinball will be fine.

Does it have to?

Get pinball thriving again in the big cities - and in many cities, it is - and we are in pretty good shape.

Unlike, say classic cars, which are more of a suburban/country pursuit.

Cargu-FACTS aside, I was wondering that as I typed it as well. If a resurgance is going on it may just look diff'rent than the old days, but perhpas there's no difference?

I think as long as we are replacing current pinball fans with new ones and the numbers stay the same or increase, then the hobby continues to thrive, regardless of where it happens. I feel like pinball was kept alive in the 90s in part because it was still doing well in Europe, as evidenced by how many 90s games we are now re-importing to the States and my travels there last Summer, that's completely changed, where now pinball has shrunk in Europe and grown in the States. But yes, I think pinball will grow again in the middle of the US as people start pinball leagues and host pinball tournaments in public spaces, I think there is a huge growth market for it, regardless of what happens in the home market. Especially with a few technological advances like lcd screens and game scores posting immediately online (which makes things competitive even when playing alone).

And o-dins She Shed!

Kinda surprised at this response, Otaku. I may not be an "EM guy" but I don't think I've ever disparaged them. My favorite style of games are early SS but those are just 80s versions of EMs. The art and gameplay are things I love about EMs. I own two and always have to resist the tempation to buy more.

And that's why I said EMs are worthless. If you want an EM all you have to do is look on CL and you can find more than one nearby for a couple hundred or less. People are almost giving away games because no one will come take them. The two I bought were less than 150 bucks together.

Now imagine in 10 years when a lot of the older guys who have hoarded EMs start to get rid of them or their kids get rid of them. There's just going to be too many machines for the market that wants them. There will always be a place for the very high quality games but the average player's quality games are gonna struggle to find a home. There is already an industry of people stripping working games to sell for parts. You're even the beneficiary of parts for a rare game that someone was ready to pitch.

I know you're an EM guy and it has showed more than once but even you were realizing in your post the demand for EMs is dwindling while supply in the marketplace is rising. In 10 years that situation is going to be worse.

She-shed-e1459533872342 (resized).jpg

Weird, totally different story where I live. EMs have increased pretty dramatically in price over the past few years and seem highly collectible. I never see a working EM for sale for less than $600, usually they are in the $800-$1200 range. It just goes to show how much prices can vary geographically.

Lumping all EMs in the same price range is more ridiculous than saying all DMDs are worth the same, because they made hundreds if not thousands more different titles and the era lasted more than twice as long.

So yes , you will see many common ones in bad shape come up for cheap all the time. That's because most collectors of this era don't want to bring that kind of game home. Those are usually starter games for newbies.

I've been involved in this long enough to know there are EMs that collectors will pay as much if not more than some of the highest priced modern DMD games to get that gem they have been looking for.

More places to play pinball, here's hoping.

One of the biggest gripes I have with the pin community is not the amount of people entering, but the amount of people entering that have no clue about the hobby with deep pockets. This is what has changed in the ten years since I've been very active in it.

These new buyers learn the hard way and the ones that have been around collecting at leisure and getting a good deal here and there, find the game has changed.
They buy overpriced games that need a lot of tlc or work and then they turn around and try and get more than they paid, which wasn't good to start with.
This is a double whammy- the flipper or seller that sold it then sets the bar for pricing on his junk game because someone bought it, and the buyer in return selling it because taking a loss is not feasible or cool. Not many people like to lose money in a game. It's a mindset.

This then becomes an epidemic with an unscrupulous flipper that sells a huge volume of games and a buyer that just throws money around like candy.

Of course there are good flippers too, many...
But just because the well is overflowing with water, doesn't mean you should run over and start drinking from it.

So, in 10 years? Who knows.

Devolution will bring pinball back to life. Go back to what a pinball machine was.

Will we all be wearing the same hats?

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It's a Beautiful World and That's Good!

Is Sing Along a popular one? I thought it was because someone was making repro backglasses. There was one on CL in good shape for a little over $400. It was on there for more than a month. It might still be on there.

It's nice to see they are going up in price in the Northwest.

It's popular among those that collect wedgeheads but not a real high priced game. Can get decent money for good condition though.

There are a few EMs that in collector quality condition would get five figures easily. And priced at $10,000 would sell instantly. Some are-

Mermaid
Charlies Angels
Evel Knieval
Glamour

To name a few...

Heck, rough examples of any of those could sell for 10k.

Sing Along was popular long before the repro backglass or the repro playfield.
Thankfully, we got the ignos spending their dollars on other machines.

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