I unexpectedly find myself the owner of a Chicago Coin machine (1949's Golden Gloves). It's rough and not working, but appears to be all there.

Neither Mike Pacack or PBR have a schematic for this one, not do IPDB or archive.org.

Any ideas?

Thanks. I emailed Jeff. John didn't have it on his list.

Anybody else?

Bump. Jeff got back to me-- he doesn't have it either.

Truthfully, this game isn't all that complicated, and I probably don't *need* a schematic to get it working, but I'd like to have it nonetheless.

Bump.

So I got this thing home and started pulling it apart... the wiring is a complete mess, and I'm going to need to re-wire most of the machine. B

I've messaged everyone from every site I could find that sells schematics. I've messaged everyone I could find who claimed to own one. I have had no luck in finding a schematic.

This machine is simple enough that I can probably figure it out without a schematic, but I really don't want to have to do that... so if you have one, or have a source, please let me know.

Might very well be. I'll post some photos of it in the next few days.

Giving this a bump-- it's been a couple of days, and my google-fu has been unsuccessful... maybe someone will see this and take pity on a poor soul trying to bring this old timer back to life.

I can't get it to power up... I'm wondering if the transformer might be bad.

To add... if anyone can point me to a startup sequence or help me understand how these machines power up, it would be greatly appreciated. Mine does absolutely nothing when plugged in (started a seperate thread about that...).

I wasn't aware of the football game, and yes, the playfield has a similar layout.

I'm not worried about troubleshooting individual items-- I think I can figure that out once I get there... the problem I've got is that I don't understand the logic or startup sequence of the machine, and I can't get it to do ANYTHING at this point.

Interesting. No, I haven't touched the coin slide yet. It's jammed, so I set it aside for the moment... and I guess I need to make getting that back into operation a priority!

So I snuck home at lunchtime. I don't see anything that resembles a timer, other than a bell in the head that is to the right of the normal chime-- perhaps this is it? I can post a photo later.

As I said before, I have just sort of ignored the coin door until now, and upon closer inspection, my coin door isn't currently connected to anything! I don't see a spot for the jumpers either, unless I'm supposed to connect it directly to the transformer, which has a couple of single, jones plug style connectors. Can anyone confirm whether or not the coin door should connect directly to the transformer?

Do you remember what your coin door was wired to? Other than going directly to the transformer, I don't see a plug, nor do I see wires cut off... so I'm not sure what to do with this!

Ok... I found the wires for the coin door-- they were taped up and tucked in the corner of the machine. Somebody really hacked this thing up. I repaired those, but I still don't have power at the coin door. With my battery test rig, I can go from one side of the coil to the fuse, and when I push the coin slot in, the switch closes, and the coil activates... so at least it works in concept. I'm not really sure where to go from here... does anyone know the order of operation for these machines?

Oh, and as promised, some pictures. I think I found the "clock". It was seized up tight, and I worked last night to get it freed up and lubed as best as I could (I can't figure out how to get it apart-- it appears to be press fit together). Look at the top left corner of the clock-- it appears that there may have been another coil as part of this mechanism, but there's no evidence of any wiring having been present (unless it was driven via the bell mechanism, which is out of the left hand side of the photo, and is missing, though the loose wires for that are present). I think it's possible that there never was a coil there-- though the unit will turn continuously in either direction, the way it's geared it's clear that it was only intended to go clockwise. It works with my test battery.
clock_(resized).JPG

The playfield should clean up nicely. Yes, I have all the plastics.
playfield_(resized).JPG

The backglass is pretty much shot. I will probably have to have a translite made.
backglass_(resized).JPG

I know it's a stepper unit I couldn't figure out what other function it could possibly have.

I'll take some pics of the underside of the playfield, and we'll see what we can figure out, but I don't remember seeing anything that looks like either of those things.

Some more photos (and a couple of fancy animated gifs... if they work).

There's another stepper unit in the backbox that is wound up with one coil, and when it releases it winds down as shown-- it's the only "wound up" mechanism I could find. There's no dash pot that I can see...

The other issue appears to be that the coin mechanism doesn't go in far enough to activate the bar that (I think) should start the reset process... would that also energize the game? Thoughts on how to correct this?

playfieldunderside1_(resized).jpg

playfieldunderside2_(resized).jpg

coin_chute_(resized).png

stepper_(resized).png

I have some progress to report...

I figured out the coin mech issue-- there was a hook that I thought was supposed to indicate the end of the stroke for the mech, but it actually was supposed to retract when the coin was in the mech. It didn't. A small brass shim to keep the hook from engaging fixed that issue, and the mech goes in further than I realized it was supposed to (and had the added effect of no longer needing to have a coin in the mech to push it in). It now goes in far enough to engage the reset bar.

The other gain I made is that when I push the coin mech in and engage the reset bar, the 120V lights in the backbox come on, so I'm going in the right direction. I didn't have much time to tinker, so it will have to wait until I get home tonight... didn't test whether or not I'm getting the other voltages at the transformer yet. I'll report back after I do that.

When the reset bar is pushed in, it dosn't hold, and the game doesn't start. In my thread about testing the transformer (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-test-a-transformer-1949-chicago-coin#post-3259871) it was suggested that there should be a "Game Cut Out" relay that would keep the power on when the bar was engaged-- there is a label for such a relay, but as I noted in the other thread, there's no physical game cutoff relay-- just an empty spot. Problem is, the wiring harness is also intact, and nothing has been cut away. Would this label or the entire relay stack have been a standard part and perhaps this game never had the cutoff relay?

Either way, we may be at the stage where there's just a maladjusted switch keeping this from holding and firing up. I'll have time tonight and tomorrow to do some more troubleshooting. In the meantime, I'd welcome any more thoughts.

Regarding the schematic, I have reached out to the other owners who list this machine on the pinball owners database-- none of them have a schematic. I've written to a couple of major woodrail collectors who don't list this particular machine, but I'm hoping they have a schematic in their collections. The game is simple enough that I think I could troubleshoot it all if I understood the order of operations for the startup sequence... until then I'm just guessing and looking for maladjusted switches.

Thanks for your continued help and feedback as I muddle through this.

Some more success... and a bit of a backslide.

I tinkered some more tonight, and I had the machine to the point where it would basically reset, and the arm that allows the balls to slide into the tray for the lifter would deploy. The lights would come on and stay on, as though the game thought it was at least partially in play. The center kickout hole also is working. The I remembered EM101, and I decided to tighten down all of the switch stacks-- some of them I was able to get 2-3 full turns out of the screws.

When I did that, I knocked something out of alignment, and the reset no longer happened. The backbox *and* playfield lights both come on now when the reset bar is pushed, but they don't hold. Some of the score lights in the backbox also flash in addition to the 120v bulbs. I am going to need to go through each stack, switch by switch with the multimeter and bender and test each one... time consuming for sure, but it needs to be done. These switch blade are different than the other EMs I have (Williams, Gottlieb, Bally, United) as they are *much* thinner, and easier to bend out of position.

I suspect at this point that I am only a couple of switches away from having this machine up and running. I'd still love to know the order of operations, as it would help me track down where the failure is happening. I'd also love to know what Chicago Coin used as the equivalent of a "hold" switch, as I can't figure that one out. Hopefully, one of the woodrail collectors I've written to will have a schematic for this machine or for a "Football" which appears to be the same, as Singlezero pointed out back in post 12.

Wish me luck... it's going to be a tedious day tomorrow...

I noticed that switch

I'm going to swing by the hardware store later this morning to see if I can find a slightly stouter spring for the return. The current one isn't strong enough.

*sigh*

I have spent the last 9 hours going through switches on the underside of the playfield, cleaning, and testing continutity in both positions. As near as I can tell, all of the switches are working properly except 1... there's a switch on the reset relay that has continuity no matter what postion it's in. I suspect that this one is the root of my problems. I've given up for today, but tomorrow (unless you guys have other ideas!) I'm going to pull apart that switch stack. I'm wondering if perhaps and unsulator or some unseen bit of solder is bridging the two switches. I have not been sucessful in getting the machine to go through the basic steps of the reset (and hold) that I referenced in post 14 yesterday. Now when I push the reset bar in with the coin mechanism, the 120V lights in the backbox light up, and a half dozen of the playfield lights come up as long momentarily, and the coil on the stepper unit (pictured above in #14) steps up. When I release the coin mech, everything goes back off.

On the score motor there's an ancient waxed yellow paper capacitor on the "5 Step Up" switch. Not sure how to test it, and there's no value shown on the capacitor. I'd have to imagine that's no good, and I'm wondering if that could be the source of my difficulties. Anyone know the value of these? I'll replace it with a modern one...

On the scoring bank, there are a bunch of switches that have continutity in both positions. I've checked all the playfield switches, and none of them are stuck.

Dumb question... should any of the tilt switches be in the closed position? They are currently all open. Obviously, the plumbob and the ball activated switch on the bottom of the playfield are supposed to be open. I'm not 100% sure on the other 3-- they are all the weighted blade type.

Bump.

Hoping still hoping that someone can help me figure out the value of the capacitor, and the order of operations. I'm itching to get the repair work done, and get down to the restoration of the rest of the machine.

I tracked down and reached out to a couple of owners of the Chicago Coin "Football" last night, which appears to be an almost identical game with different artwork.

The thing is, I think it's going to behave the same way BECAUSE the cap has failed. My current thinking (again, no schematic) is that given that the cap is on the "5 step up" switch, it's supposed to sustain voltage to make the step up unit coil pulse 5 times.
clock_(resized).JPG

Currently, when I push in the reset bar, that unit only steps up once. Unsoldering the capacitor wouldn't change that.

I have been unsuccessful at finding any resources regarding waxed paper capacitor use in pinballs, but a site about antique radios (http://www.antiqueradio.org/recap.htm) suggests that these old paper capacitors have almost always failed. I'll take a closer look at it tonight and see if I can determine a value for it-- I may need to remove it to find that, as all that's written on the visible label is "paper type capacitor" and manufacturer info. If I can't find that value on the underside, I'll see what I can order that's closest to .5mfd @ 200V and hope for the best.

Yes, there was a ton of shrinkage (insert George Costanza joke here!). I'm sure that the tightening of the switches is what changed my semi-startup condition.

I have done through all of the switches on the bank that's reset by the bar, as well as all of the scoring ones. They have all been cleaned, gapped, and tested for continuity.

As I mentioned yesterday, there's a single switch on the reset relay that has continuity in both positions-- clearly that's not right.

The challenge I'm running into with testing the switches in the manner you have suggested (which is a method I've used before and it's very effective) is that I don't know where I'm supposed to be looking for the next switch. How do you suggest doing this without a schematic.

I'd be quite happy if I could get it back to the state where it would hold and believe it's in game play. Troubleshooting from that point should prove much easier.

So... push in the coin mech to activate the reset bar, that coil kicks in and just holds until the reset bar is released? That's what it's doing now.

There are no switches for power on the bottom of the cabinet. Only that cutoff switch. It's literally the only switch on the bottom of the cabinet. The plum bob, transformer, a jones plug, and the fuse block are the only other things-- everything else is on the bottom of the playfield.

Should that cutoff switch be opened or closed? As it sits now, it's NO. I have jumpered the leads to make it NC, and that didn't make a difference.

I'll double check on the tilt relay. I don't remember seeing one. Despite the fact that there are so many tilt switches present, there's no light or other indicator of tilt (I am assuming the machine just turns off?). I don't think I'm getting far enough into the start sequence to test the tilt either way-- basically, when I push in the coin mech, the GI lights up, and the stepper that I pictured above moves one step. It also decredits by one. When the coin mech goes back to it's normal position, everything goes dark.

That is proving to be a difficult value to track down. Suggestions for an alternative? The closest I'm coming up with is: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/R75MN34704030J/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1cc3ydrPrFxcrIfcgokqez4MLQIqofir%252bDull%252buVV%252bg%3d%3d

Can you fill me in on the status of your tilt switches? Are they all NO? Are any of them NC?

There's a weight on the bottom blade, so I've been working under the assumption that it should be NO. There are two switches on the side of the cabinet that I will take pics of when I get home.
cut_out_(resized).JPG

I will double check this, but I believe that they are all latching.

The coil that actuates the stepper pictured in post 38.

Yes. I thought about that one, and I tested them on switch by switch with the DMM and used my battery rig to activate the coil.

I didn't... but that makes a lot of sense, and I will try that tonight.

PM sent. Thanks.

It doesn't lock on per se. It remains locked as long as I hold the reset bar in, and releases as soon as I release the reset bar. And actually, I misspoke before - or more accurately, my wife identified the wrong stepper-- it's the other stepper in the backbox that this is happening with. When I had it "almost working" before, it was the other stepper (the one I pictured a couple posts above) that was stepping and ringing the bell.

I took 2 more pictures for you guys one is the two tilt switches on the side of the cabinet, the other is part of the reset bank. There *is* a tilt relay. The reset relay does not hold in, and when I hold it and release the reset bar, nothing happens and the lights go out. In fact, none of those relays seem to hold in... they are only being held by the bar. I also scraped some of the melted wax off the capacitor-- it's .25mfd, 200V.

resetbank_(resized).jpg

tiltswitches_(resized).jpg

I figured out that the 120v backbox lights and many of the 6v lights in the backbox and playfield are controlled by a single switch at the end of the reset bar.

I think at this point I need to figure out what plays the role of the "hold" relay that my later EMs have. None of the coils on the reset bar have power when I put the bar in. Coils all test out with my battery rig. Score motor runs when I push the bar in. Currently, it will stop as soon as I let go of the bar. If I hold the bar in and let the coil in the backbox buzz (loudly) the score motor finds its correct position and stops.

Oh, and both the 30v and 6v fuses have ~13 volts when tested. Not sure of the significance of that.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm testing from the ground point in the bottom of the cabinet to the fuse block, the jones plug, and at the coils.

No. If I just hold the reset relay in, nothing happens. The reset is the only one that doesn't have a lock of any sort- it appears to only consist of momentary switches.

No, they don't. If you go back earlier in the thread, I had them staying in and the trough releasing balls, then I realized I hadn't tightened the switch stacks. When I tightened them, that function stopped working, but other things started working.

The capacitance of that is .47uF. Isn't that too great of a difference from .25uF or does it not matter in this instance?

Edit: I found something on a radio repair site that suggested taking a .22uf and .033 uF and hooking them in parallel. Thoughts on that?

With apologies for the bad MS paint, see the traces in the photo below-- 120 comes in from the power cord. Goes through the fuses to the jones plug, where it goes to the bottom of the playfield (I have 120v at the switch that turns on the lights). It goes from (or to... I should test that) the transformer to a plug at the back of the cabinet that plugs into a 120v plug for the lightbulbs in the backbox.

Yup. One of the score motor switches perhaps?

Indeed. As I said, I tested every single switch with the multimeter on the switch connections, and the battery test rig on the coil, and literally every switch on that reset stack worked correctly except the one on the reset relay that I already mentioned.

I didn't realize there were such wide tolerances. I can probably get a .47 locally.

120v_(resized).jpg

I put up a wanted ad on Mr. Pinball for a schematic for this machine, Football, or Tahiti (a 3rd I've discovered is nearly identical). Hopefully someone will have one. I've also been checking Ebay daily.

The 120 runs through a switch that is on the end of the reset bar. It may run to others as well. I haven't traced it back to the "red line" on my picture above, but I will do so.

There is a separate ground-- one side of the power cord and two other wires go to it. It's in the picture above to the left of the cut off switch. That's what I have been using as a ground point when I'm testing.

So the line coming out of the top of the transformer just to the left of the "blue line" on my photo? That goes to the aforementioned grounding point.

That's my handiwork. I removed the waxed string, and made notes on where each of the leads to the jones plug comes from or does. They read as follows, with the || denoting the left and right sides of the plug (I can't read a couple in the photos-- I'll edit this post when I get home and look at it):

jonesplug_(resized).jpg

Edit 1: The "replay" is the replay jumper on the bottom of the cabinet, not the replay relay switch stack.

The two spots with question marks in the image above say "Tranformer bottom left" and "Tilt 1,2,4,5"

Dunno why I have a blank post above... must have done that accidentally.

Anyway, I was thinking all of this through tonight... my current idea is to trace the 30v line up through the playfield-- wherever that goes is likely the next step in the reset, and thus the next link in my chain. Thoughts?

Bump.

Thoughts on following the 30v? Given that the machine has a manual reset and no hold relay, it would seem to me that whatever the 30V line goes to is a likely suspect, no?

There's a 3 position jumper on the front of the transformer-- three slightly different voltage 120 feeds... the high and low tap with medium thrown in for good measure (haven't seen that on my other machines).

The only other wire coming from the top of the transformer goes into the back, and doesn't have a spot to jumper-- it's buried down in the transformer.

The other wires come from the bottom. I'll test as you suggest this evening, and report back.

Sure. Check back in a couple hours-- I'll do it when I get home from work.

Could that be the blue line on my drawing above? That goes directly to the transformer and is coming back from the head. I haven't traced the other line from that plug, but I can certainly do so.

I'm sure it hits all of the coils on that reset bar. What I'm getting at is whether there's any logic that it will connect to the first relay in the startup string first. From there, I can trace that signal through the switches to the next relay, and so on...

I'm tracing all those 30v wires now. It's slow and painstaking-- have to remove all the waxed thread. Ugh. Found that the 30v runs from the Jones plug to a junction block on the underside of the playfield. I am now going through tracing them all from the junction block to where ever they go. I'll report in all of those after dinner.

Yup. That's on my list for tonight. I'll report back.

Ok... morning report.

The 30v wire goes from the Jones plug to the underside of the playfield, where it ends at a terminal block that has 3 other wires attached to it. Those three wires go to the score motor and two relays on the reset bank (the tilt relay, and another... I forget at the moment... haven't had coffee yet)-- so unless one of you guys has a better idea, that's where my search will turn now. I'm going to follow the circuits that each of those wires creates until I find something. I did note that the one that goes to the score motor has the capacitor that I mentioned a couple of days ago in its path.

I figured out the transformer. The voltage is a little low for the 120v and 30v and a little high for the 6v. The 120V line is measuring 116.1V. The 30V line is measuring 24.8V, and the 6V line is measuring 8.1V. But, those voltages are stable and consistent. I know that the GI is working, so the 120V and 6V lines are ok. The 30V coils will fire with my 18V battery rig, so I suspect they are ok with the voltage... it's just a matter of getting juice to them.

It's going to be a tedious weekend of tracing and documenting circuits. Good thing that it's so miserably hot that I don't want to be outside.

Making my daily report in case anyone is still reading I've traced a ton of wires, and have little snippets of tape tags all over the machine... but it still won't start.

I have the GI lights on and holding when I push the reset bar.

The tilt light is finally off (I don't think I mentioned this one before-- I didn't realize it was the tilt light as all of the backglass around it is peeled).

I am trying to get it to kick out back to functioning like it did briefly before I tightened the switch stack. I can't get it to go. I know it's probably one of the last steps in the startup sequence so there may be some other part of the sequence that isn't satisfied.

I'm just going to keep chipping away... I really need a schematic or to know the order of operations

I spent my entire day tracing wires from end to end and labelling them. At some point during that the GI lights stopped holding again.

I got an email response to my Mr. Pinball ad looking for a schematic, but based on the email address and content, I am suspicious of a scam. I am going to insist he send a photo showing the title of the schematic before I send any money.

The wiring on this machine really doesn't make a lot of sense... things that one wouldn't think would trigger each other are connected. It's a simple machine, but the logic is really squirrely.

playfield_(resized).JPG

I'm labelling it all in the hopes of making some sort of rudimentary schematic.

Really, I'm mostly trying to understand *how* this machine works, and I'm failing badly. It just makes no sense.

To add... I've ordered new capacitors to match the capacitor on the score motor-- as near as I can tell, it's failed completely, and that may be part of my problem.

Hi guys- it's been a couple of very busy days at work, and I haven't had time to tinker with this much.

Rolf, mercifully, the 110 seems to be limited to the backbox GI and the score motor.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the switch on the reset relay is a make/break switch. I'm not 100% certain of that yet, but there seem to be a number of such switches that are all run in series to one another on other relays.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that the failed capacitor is critical to the correct function of the score motor, and may be the secret to all of this. Hopefully those parts will be here soon. The company I got them from has incredible prices, but isn't known for fast service, especially for smaller orders.

I would guess that I have traced about 40% of the wires for the machine at this point. The entire right relay bank is done. Most of the playfield is done, and I'm starting on the left relay bank now. It's a tedious process as you can imagine.

Can anybody an EM schematic making program? There are a bunch of them out there-- I don't want to get started in one only to find out it's not capable of what I want to do.

Hi fellas-

I've got a bit to report... not sure if it's progress or not, but here goes...

1) I have completed tracing all of the wires from both relay banks and all of the playfield switches, lights, and features. It was an exhausting job, but I know where each and every one of them goes now. I still have a couple of the score motor wires to trace, and several from the backbox (most of which I suspect go back to the terminal block on the bottom of the playfield-- a lot of these things are ganged together, in ways that don't make sense to me yet). My back is killing me from bending over and contorting into wierd positions. Hopefully can get back to the rest of the wires tomorrow.

2) I have definitively identified the switch that controls the GI staying on or off (it's on the tilt relay of all places... I told you this thing is screwy!).

3) Prior to completing step #4, I had it to the point where when you pushed the reset bar, the GI comes on, the score motor would run and come to a stop, and the 10,000 point switches would respond (but the ball return coil would not activate to put the balls in play).

4) I replaced the capacitor on the score motor. It now runs constantly when you try to start a game, and at least some of the the 30v playfield coils lock on (the kickout hole and the center pop... the other two coils have a wierd rod-and-ring activation "switch" that are out of adjustment and locked them on constantly before, so I slid little pieces of shrink tube over them to prevent contact for now).

5) I've been in contact with a major woodrail collector who is sympathetic to my plight. He's searching his archives for a copy of the schematic for this machine (or "Football" or "Tahiti" which I have noted before are basically the same machine). This may be my last best hope... so keep your fingers crossed for me!

So... my current thinking (and please tell me if you think I'm off). The coils are powered by the 30 v line, which passes through a switch on the tilt relay. My thought is to follow the 30v through that switch - I'm hoping I can trace it back to the reset relay (which does not have a coil to hold... it's just a bank of switches that tie into a bar on the reset bank. That bar may or may not be held in my other coils when everything is working right.

Thoughts?

This is what I intend to do next, just in case the score motor issue noted above isn't related to the capacitor.

Gentlemen, I am pleased to report that I have basic gameplay.

I was correct to follow the 30v line, but the primary problem actually was located in the switches on the end of the reset bar. I'm still not sure *why*, but the switch would close and run the score motor (as it should) when I pushed the bar in, but when I pushed on the switch manually, I noticed that it would also ring the bell in the backbox. I added another blade from my spare parts bin to stiffen up that switch a little, and force the switch to close a little tighter... and it all of a sudden, the playfield switches were working! The two center pop coils locked on immediately, so I shut it down, and discovered that the odd rod-and-ring switch I mentioned in post 84 was out of whack on one of them. I got that aligned correctly, and fired it up again... and it basically worked (and I think I can take the shrink tube off the rods on the other ones-- I now know how to adjust them).

I've still got a lot of work to go.

So far what I know isn't working:

1) The main GI works, but the playfield GI to the switches where scores are accrued isn't working. I had these working before, so I must have adjusted some switch out of whack as I worked on the machine. I'll take a look at the labels I added to the wiring and see if there's a common one, and work from there. I'm going to start a new game after each and every switch I adjust, so I will immediately know if I knock something out of alignment-- I don't want to habe to backtrack!

2) The ball kickout isn't working. Again, this is something that I had basically working before, so I don't think this one will be terrible to figure out, but my back is killing me, and I had to throw in the towel for the night.

3) The scoring isn't working at all... or maybe it is but the lights aren't. Not sure about this one. There is a response from the playfield switces- and all of them (save the aformentioned pops that are being kept from making contact) are working. I suspect that the scoring *is* working, but the stepper that controls the backbox GI isn't working. Ned to sort this one out while someone else is playing and I can watch the backbox.

Obviously, I've still got a lot of work ahead of me, even before we get to cleaning, new rubber, etc... but it's a huge step in the right direction.

Yup... mine are proto-pop bumpers. There's a wire that hangs down from them under the playfield. Attached to the playfield there's a little hoop of wire. When they touch, it activates the pop. As you correctly point out, there's no way to meaninfully adjust these. I'll tinker with it some more and see if I can get it right.

One thing I learned is that these flippers have no hold-- they just flip once and return to the original position... but they work and are surprisingly powerful.

I'm sure the ball kickout issue is a single switch, I just have to figure out which one. Probably the same for some of playfield lighting and scoring. I need to follow the 6V circuit I guess.

My back is very, very sore (I've got a long history of back problems), so I'll probably take today off from working on this machine and do some work on my Rocky and Bullwinkle, which I can do standing up.

I couldn't resist... I had to go back down and tinker some more.

The playfield GI is basically working now (or it may all be working, but I haven't done the things necessary to turn on particular lights). The switch that controls them is on the Tilt relay of all places (I told you this thing is screwy!).

The backbox GI is working too. Scoring isn't working correctly, but it's working (it starts a game with the 200,000 and 40,000 lights lit). I'm assuming that the stepper that controls the lighting needs more cleaning or some contacts re-flowed. I really haven't messed with it.

The ball kickout is working too... sort of. My trouble lies in a make/break switch-- this is where a schematic would be really handy. The relay has a coil to hold it during game play (I know this is the "normal" way, but this game has a couple of relays that don't even have a coil, and only function when the reset bar is pushed in). Assuming the normal way these work, the switch should be closed and let the balls out. In this case, if the switch is only closed when the reset bar is pushed in, the balls don't release, but if I adjust the switch to be closed when the bar is released, the balls release into the trough-- but the coil remains locked on. I don't see how the other switch on the M/B pair ever gets closed, except when the coil releases (which I haven't seen it do) unless it's supposed to be closed in the "normal" state, and the other switch I mentioned is only supposed to be a momentary switch when the bar is pushed in.

Thoughts?

Rolf-

Thanks. I'll take another look at it, but as near as I can tell, there's only an EOS switch that kills power to the flipper, and no part of that array that would enable them to hold. It actually makes some sense if you look at the direction the flippers go, and at the drain in between them.

Ah! Apologies-- I was mobile at the time.

I think we're all on the same page then.

Any thoughts on the ball release coil and that switch? I may have to disconnect the coil temporarily to work on the other issues.

Oh, on another matter-- one of the coils on a backbox stepper has clearly overheated, and I think it should probably be replaced. Any thoughts on how to identify the value of it? There's no marking on the wrapper.

Pleased to report that I've figure out *what* is wrong with the ball release... now I'd like your thoughts on how to fix it.

I figured out that the coil is *supposed* to lock on! As soon as a score is rendered, it unlocks. However, I can't get it to do that consistently, and here's why...

Once I figured that out, I adjusted the M/B switch I mentioned a couple of posts ago. I then discovered that the switch uses a latch relay that isn't consistently working. It always releases when it should, but it doesn't latch most of the time when pushed in. I took a couple of loops out of spring, and it works slightly more often, but not well enough. I guess I will have to look for a spring that will work for this purpose. If I juggle the latch at all while it's not engaged, it will engage on the next try 100% of the time.

I don't think I can get a picture of it, but I'll try-- it's buried in there pretty deeply. The latch consists of a hole in the plate that pushes the switches closed when the reset bar is pushed in. There's a latch under tension from the spring that puts a little tab up inside the hole. On the other end of the plate is the spring I mentioned above. When the coil engages upon first scoring, it pulls the tab down out of the hole.

I should point out, if you're having trouble envisioning what I'm talking about with this latch, it's (visually) more like the Bally and Williams style latches (though it doesn't work the same way) than it is like the Gottlieb one.

Once I figure this out, I'll deal with the scoring issues (some values aren't registering correctly) and the zero problem that I now see I have (the score doesn't go back to zero... it's based on a continual stepper, and I'm not clear on how it goes back to zero).

Since I don't know the correct specs for the spring, and vendors never give sizes for things like this, I just dropped a bunch of different ones into my basket with an order I needed to place with Marco. Hopefully, one of them will be correct. I'm always very hesitant to use any lubricant, especially in areas I can't easily reach, but I'm tempted to try to lube up that latch and see if that improves operation.

I've been going over the scoring stepper again and again in my head. The "zero position" is marked on both the stepper and the relevant finger with paint... but I can't see how it gets there unless it's supposed to go all the way around clockwise until it gets there (again, it's a continuous stepper). But, when one starts a new game, the lights count down, not up... This may be one of those things where I recruit one of the kids to play a couple of games while I watch what's happening in the backbox.

A little something for you guys to enjoy.

I'm not sure why only some of the GO-LD-EN GL-OV-ES lights work-- I need to troubleshoot that. Probably just switches in the wrong positions.

The game is scoring correctly insofar as each of the targets adds the correct score, but I haven't figured out how to get the score to zero out. I'd welcome any thoughts you guys have on correcting that... I'm a little stumped as to how that works.

I've got a lot of work ahead of me tidying up the wiring harness, and all of the stripping, cleaning, new rubber, etc... that's going to take some time, but I'd like to think that the hardest of the work is behind me now. I guess we'll see.

Edit: The relay latch-- a slightly stouter spring too care of it.

JKnPA-- that's the problem-- it's a continuous stepper. I think it's *supposed* to keep stepping around until it hits the zero position (and I know what that zero position is), I just don't know how it's supposed to get there. Perhaps one of the relays in the banks on the underside of the playfield is releasing prematurely. I've labeled each and every wire, so I know how the signal should be getting there-- so perhaps it's a matter of chasing that entire circuit like I did for the ball release.

A quick update-- the game is working great... mostly. I still have the issue with the game not resetting to zero, and I think I'm going to have to take apart that stepper and get it really clean.

I'm still looking for a replacement backglass or a high resolution photo or scan that I can have a translite made from-- mine is just too far gone to scan and photoshop myself.

I'm also still looking for a schematic. I've scoured the globe and come up empty handed. My own tracing and labeling of the wiring is what got me back up and running, but it would be nice to understand some of the logic of the machine a little better.

Thanks. Yes, it's a single coil, continuous stepper. The number of steps it takes is not consistent... so something is either gummed up, or the relay is opening before it should for some reason.

I *think* it thinks it's zeroed out when it's not. It doesn't skip steps.

Giving this one a bump-- still looking for a schematic.

Whether you have it or not, can anyone confirm that these schematics even *exist*? I'm not coming up with anything for Golden Gloves or any of the machines that appear to be mechanically identical.

As far as the game itself, everything on the playfield is working perfectly now. I'm left only with the screwy score reset. I'll have some time over the holidays, and I play to troubleshoot it.

If anyone does have a Golden Gloves, I'd really appreciate a high res image of the backglass. Mine is so far gone that there isn't enough there to work with in Photoshop to make a file for a translite.

Keep in mind that this game has no ball release or ball count unit as we would think of them. The ball count works in that the gate that releases the balls into the chute stays open until the first scoring switch is shut.

Scoring, as you probably know, is just a series of lights that get lit up and display values on the backglass. There are no score reels-- the only reel on the machine is the credit count.

Because of that, the scoring stepper doesn't *need* to be back at zero to start a new game. Sometimes it ends up back at zero by coincidence, but I can't figure out the logic of how it's *supposed* to know when it's reached zero-- because in some cases it rolls right past zero and stops on some other seemingly random number. But the stepper itself works, as least insofar as it stepping up the appropriate number of points as they are accrued. I'm sure it's something simple-- probably a single switch, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Thanks. Mike and Steve Young were my first stops. I have contacted vendors, other owners and pinball ephemera collectors all over the planet-- none have it. I'm starting to think it doesn't exist.

As far as the machine itself, it's actually quite fun- better than I ever would have expected such an early flipper machine to be. It's one of the better EMs that I own.

It's been a couple of months since I've given this one a bump. Hopefully some kind soul who has this or a similar schematic will throw me a lifeline.

72 days since I last bumped this one.

Everything on the playfield works perfectly, and the amounts scored are correct... now if I could only get it to go back to zero at the start of a new game...