(Topic ID: 343207)

where's the Gottlieb (solid state games in tournaments)

By Bmad21

10 months ago


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    #1 10 months ago

    Playing in the tournament scene. It's just Williams, bally, Stern. No gottlieb solid states.

    Not a single gottlieb except joker poker. It's always down for maintenance.

    Gottlieb is radioactive around town and in the hobby.

    #2 10 months ago

    There are a couple system 1's that don't have broken rules, but you have to find one that's been dialed in and running.

    System 80's have a couple great titles but many were junked back in the day and the ones that have survived and are decent to play in a tournament are hard to find.

    System 3's are just shit for tournament play for the most part.

    #3 10 months ago

    Some games notes are here--the one for Barb Wire is interesting:

    https://replayfoundation.org/papa/learning-center/director-guide/game-notes/

    Certain games have bugs, unbalanced scoring, random mystery awards, or scoring exploits that can make them unsuitable for tournament play. On some games, players can hit one easy, repeatable shot over and over and just rack up points.

    #4 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Certain games have bugs, unbalanced scoring, random mystery awards, or scoring exploits that can make them unsuitable for tournament play.

    I personally haven’t spent too much time learning Gottlieb games. Even as a preteen I thought they were laughable games at an arcade due to cheesy themes and terrible IP execution. To this day I hate how their late SS flippers go from low to completely vertical when flipped.

    Fast forward to my pinball competing days, the only one I had to play at first was SMB, and I just chalked that up as a loss. Then Rescue 911 and Stargate came into the mix, but they were also broken half the time so I didn’t care that much.

    Then fast forward almost 6 years later and I have to play Wipeout competitively, and I could just hit 1-2 easy ass shots on loop and it was simple to rack up points. There was also a week or two that Operation Thunder was in the mix, but it wasn’t a big tourney pick so we all dodged a bullet there.

    The games either suck or can be exploited. Basically what everyone says about them.

    #5 10 months ago

    Williams bad cats, just hit the ramp.

    #6 10 months ago

    System 3 games are just too random and/or exploitable to be good tournament games with overpowered mystery awards and catch-up features.

    Older games, however, might just be due to rarity. With the exception of Monte Carlo’s random 10,000,000 point shot, most every other 80B game is pretty well balanced, they’re just not commonly found games.

    #7 10 months ago

    I see system 1s a lot around here, most are fine tournament games, and they're super reliable once they're gone through properly

    System 80+80a are sorta hard to find, but I drill see some

    We've got a bunch of 80b and sys3 that are just fine after some small tweaks

    Your sample size is small

    #8 10 months ago

    We play Shaq Attaq in tournament a lot. It’s pretty fair and the mystery awards are given sequentially in tournament mode.

    Most people are just afraid. I’ve seen plenty of high level players enjoy throwing Gottlieb’s in the mix. If they’re setup hard enough, the scoring imbalances don’t matter

    #9 10 months ago

    Most late 80s /90s gottliebs are terrible tournament games. Too many dumb random awards and other stupid rules. Ugly games. Not fun to play.

    I've played tons of system 1 games in tournaments, they are reliable and most have good rules for tournaments.

    Early/mid-80s games are also good in tournaments, but you just don't see them often because they are rare. I'm sure every tournament would have an Alien Star if they could.

    At NYCPC we will likely have both Alien Star and Sinbad in our classics bank (Alien Star could be in Main, who knows).

    #10 10 months ago

    Just played System 1 Hulk in the tourney at Pintastic.
    I'll remember it well, as it was my only honest win in the A div. quarter finals.

    If a Pascal CPU is installed, the games can handle the 3 days of constant play.
    Otherwise, Gottliebs usually cannot handle the stress - but it would be nice to see more - true.

    #11 10 months ago

    "Gottlieb" aside, most of the tournament players in my town seem to hate solid states entirely, and directors will avoid running them... pre-DMD games are getting rarer and rarer on location, but even if they're hosting an event somewhere with classics, they don't put them in the tourney lineup.

    A lot of tournament players want the 20 second ball saves, rulesets they can memorize to have an advantage, 3 tilt warnings, endless multiballs, etc. That's what they're used to so any game without those features doesn't feel 'fair'. Long playing games have made tournaments an absolute slog though, get two good players going on a modern game set up easy (silicone rubbers and a loose tilt) and you can end up standing around for an hour.

    We have one location in town that runs casual non-IFPA tourneys and focuses on shorter ball-time games which is awesome (Wedgehead here in Portland OR). I would go to a lot more tournaments if more places ran classics.

    #12 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Most late 80s /90s gottliebs are terrible tournament games. Too many dumb random awards and other stupid rules. Ugly games. Not fun to play.
    I've played tons of system 1 games in tournaments, they are reliable and most have good rules for tournaments.
    Early/mid-80s games are also good in tournaments, but you just don't see them often because they are rare. I'm sure every tournament would have an Alien Star if they could.
    At NYCPC we will likely have both Alien Star and Sinbad in our classics bank (Alien Star could be in Main, who knows).

    Come on Levi, you've played in enough big tournaments to know this isn't entirely true.

    At NWPC this weekend we had Excalibur, Hoops, and Mystery Castle in the main tournament and all were heavily played and picked throughout the weekend and in finals.

    INDISC has always showcased some Sys80b and System 3 games. Other than Rescue 911 that has been successful. Bad Girls was a huge hit this year, Excalibur, Robo-War, Class of 1812, TX-Sector, Stargate, Barb Wire, Hoops, Genesis, Diamond Lady. The list goes on.

    System 11 is just as full of terrible rulesets and repeatable shots but somehow gets a ton of love because a few of the games are really good. I'd much rather play any Gottlieb above than Police Force (especially with giant rebound rubbers on the center ramp) or Cyclone.

    #13 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Most late 80s /90s gottliebs are terrible tournament games. Too many dumb random awards and other stupid rules. Ugly games. Not fun to play.
    I've played tons of system 1 games in tournaments, they are reliable and most have good rules for tournaments.
    Early/mid-80s games are also good in tournaments, but you just don't see them often because they are rare. I'm sure every tournament would have an Alien Star if they could.
    At NYCPC we will likely have both Alien Star and Sinbad in our classics bank (Alien Star could be in Main, who knows).

    Hold on... didn't I play a Genesis and a Surf'n'Safari in a tournament hosted by a certain Crazylevi?

    #14 10 months ago
    Quoted from frisbez:

    Come on Levi, you've played in enough big tournaments to know this isn't entirely true.
    At NWPC this weekend we had Excalibur, Hoops, and Mystery Castle in the main tournament and all were heavily played and picked throughout the weekend and in finals.
    INDISC has always showcased some Sys80b and System 3 games. Other than Rescue 911 that has been successful. Bad Girls was a huge hit this year, Excalibur, Robo-War, Class of 1812, TX-Sector, Stargate, Barb Wire, Hoops, Genesis, Diamond Lady. The list goes on.
    System 11 is just as full of terrible rulesets and repeatable shots but somehow gets a ton of love because a few of the games are really good. I'd much rather play any Gottlieb above than Police Force (especially with giant rebound rubbers on the center ramp) or Cyclone.

    Blasphemy! Police Force Rocks and so does Cyclone... More charm, better rules, better flow.

    #15 10 months ago
    Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

    Blasphemy! Police Force Rocks and so does Cyclone... More charm, better rules, better flow.

    If you like seeing top players go center ramp all day, sure. LOL

    #16 10 months ago

    My complaints are really more about 90s DMD games.

    Yes there's plenty of 80s Gottlieb games that are suitable for tournaments.

    But things tend to get stupid a little later on with the random multiball and other awards and unbalanced scoring. Also they are ugly and not fun to play.

    #17 10 months ago

    We have a Genie and a Solar Ride at ULEKstore's Pinball and Classic Arcade (Monroe, MI) for our tournaments... along with 32 other pinball machines.

    #19 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    My complaints are really more about 90s DMD games.
    Yes there's plenty of 80s Gottlieb games that are suitable for tournaments.
    But things tend to get stupid a little later on with the random multiball and other awards and unbalanced scoring. Also they are ugly and not fun to play.

    Man... come to think of it I've only ever had one modern Gottieb... Super Mario Brothers. What a fun and lighthearted game for kids! Also the longest playing game I ever owned. I think you'd have to have a time limit if you put that one in the tournament at Allentown. If I can go for an hour on it I can't imagine what type of time a good player would get on it.

    Kids love it though!

    Stern... where is my Mario pinball machine?

    #20 10 months ago
    Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

    Man... come to think of it I've only ever had one modern Gottieb... Super Mario Brothers. What a fun and lighthearted game for kids! Also the longest playing game I ever owned. I think you'd have to have a time limit if you put that one in the tournament at Allentown. If I can go for an hour on it I can't imagine what type of time a good player would get on it.

    Kids love it though!

    the IFPA rules really don't allow for an time limit and if you had one you need an lot of rules and an full time time keeper at the game.

    #21 10 months ago
    Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

    the IFPA rules really don't allow for an time limit and if you had one you need an lot of rules and an full time time keeper at the game.

    Yeah, most likely a TD would just remove rubbers/posts, make the game steep, etc.

    But for games like Mario, the solution is to not use them. Or keep them in the kids' bank.

    #22 10 months ago

    Hoops is a fantastic tournament game!

    #23 10 months ago

    Gottlieb system-80A & B games are great, would like to see more in tournaments. Pincinatti always has a good collection of them in its tournaments

    #24 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Some games notes are here--the one for Barb Wire is interesting:
    https://replayfoundation.org/papa/learning-center/director-guide/game-notes/
    Certain games have bugs, unbalanced scoring, random mystery awards, or scoring exploits that can make them unsuitable for tournament play. On some games, players can hit one easy, repeatable shot over and over and just rack up points.

    Wow I never knew about this site as I’m not really a competitive player. Reading the notes on Jungle Queen now has me motivated to set it up and get it fixed:

    “Players may become frustrated and scream loudly at this game. Otherwise, there are no major competitive issues.”

    #25 10 months ago

    well with system 3's that have the interlock you need to bypass it or you lose all power and scores when you open the door.

    #26 10 months ago

    waterworld is not on the papa list but that game has game braking bugs that an player can run into.

    #27 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Some games notes are here--the one for Barb Wire....

    I remember playing in Michigan State Tourny in the 90s which included like 10 Barb Wires right out of the box!

    I still have nightmares aboot it

    #28 10 months ago

    The venue that I run is not gottlieb ss friendly.

    #29 10 months ago
    Quoted from Bmad21:

    The venue that I run is not gottlieb ss friendly.

    And which location is that?

    #30 10 months ago
    Quoted from frisbez:

    At NWPC this weekend we had Excalibur, Hoops, and Mystery Castle in the main tournament and all were heavily played and picked throughout the weekend and in finals.

    MC is not a Gottlieb game.

    #31 10 months ago
    Quoted from MattElder:

    MC is not a Gottlieb game.

    It’s not.

    It would actually be a pretty good game if you couldn’t time out the modes.

    #32 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    It’s not.
    It would actually be a pretty good game if you couldn’t time out the modes.

    Yeah, that's definitely one of its faults. Lack of a feed to the upper flipper (other than the secret door) is another glaring issue, but I still love the game.

    #33 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    It’s not.
    It would actually be a pretty good game if you couldn’t time out the modes.

    Eh...better to just make the modes actually valuable. Even if I can't time out Coat of Arms there's no way I'm shooting drop targets for 2M apiece. Now 10M? Maybe I'd think about it...

    -1
    #34 10 months ago

    Gottliebs SUCK.

    #35 10 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    And which location is that?

    I don't personally run the venue but the tournament I play is the roanoke pinball museum.

    #36 10 months ago
    Quoted from Bmad21:

    The venue that I run

    Quoted from Bmad21:

    I don't personally run the venue

    IMG_5655.gifIMG_5655.gif

    2 weeks later
    #37 9 months ago

    There are a lot System-3’s that are not very good, and unfortunately give Gottlieb‘s a bad name. But you need to play the great Gottlieb’s of the 80’s such as Alien Star and TX Sector, plus so many of the great EM’s they made in the 60’s and 70’s. Might change your mind on them.

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