(Topic ID: 149373)

Where is the KISS code?

By TheRave

4 years ago

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  • 4,247 posts
  • 349 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by finnflash
  • Topic is favorited by 39 Pinsiders


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#48 4 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Will the new Kiss code remove the gigantic Gene Simmons head toy? If so, I might buy the game.

Seriously man? I'm sick of this whiny baby crap. Freaking Stern just updated Avengers, WWE, and Star Trek within the last 10 months! STOP posting this crap. And quit bashing Stern. Do you want to go back to the days when we had one manufacturer and the hobby was nearly dead? Sorry guys but I'm totally sick of threads and posts like this. Go get a better job and buy a few more games. Stop blaming Stern for your pinball dysfunction.

Sure it's whiny, but telling people to stop isn't going to change their behavior. I have plenty of games, and still wish Stern were more deterministic when it comes to updates. I played KISS heavily for a couple months and now it largely sits until the code is spiced up. Machine has good bones.

2 weeks later
#242 4 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

You have a severe case of faulty reading comprehension

Was surprised to see so much action on this vacuous thread...

After reading through the last two pages of posts, I believe your communication skills aren't quite as sharp as you imagine.

In addition, you don't appear to know much about software development and/or Stern's company culture/history.

I use to whine just like many folks in this thread. I threatened to "never buy until the code is complete". So much for whining and threats...if I like a license and have a slot, I move forward and hope that Stern does the right thing. They aren't going to change...so if it really irks people, wait on the sidelines. Stern doesn't care, but I understand why whining makes you feel better...form of group therapy I guess.

#249 4 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Ok, point taken.
However, when someone wants to take a couple of words and slant them to make a whole new meaning, they either are a politician or just an ignorant ass.
I don't claim to know about software development, nor do I care about Stern's "culture".
I just don't understand WTF the problem is with a customer making the point that they would like to see Stern put more emphasis on code.
That is all I did and a few want to twist my meaning, my words, and whatever.
Business is business, you produce pinball machines, cars, vibrators, beer, or whatever. Every owner/management/team takes the time to analyze and make improvements in every department. And yes, that applies to programming as well.
So if I don't "get it" , so be it!!!

Forums like this have a spectrum of people and have been living through the Stern saga for years.

The only reason to "care" about Stern's "culture" is to understand the context. When I first took the dive into pinball collecting in 2004, I was lucky to purchase LOTR and TSPP (2 of Stern's most awesome & complete games). As time past, the products cheapened and the software shipped with many issues.

After being a customer of Stern's products for 12 years now, they clearly "major in" pinball manufacturing and "minor in" pinball software. That means software innovation & completeness isn't a priority. That's why we don't have color dots. Fortunately, there are awesome 3rd party products that help push the ball forward (for example, ColorDMD just released a product for TRON

Ironically, even though Stern's software may not be bleeding edge and updates can be frustrating, they have still produced some of the best rulesets in all of pinball. When comparing Stern's with B/W machines, most people agree that Stern rulesets are deeper and more fun for serious players (particularly for home use). How/Why? Because Lyman Sheets is one of the best players and programmers in the business. From my perspective, he has had a huge hand in Stern's ability to produce some awesome machines.

To summarize, building pinball machines isn't like building any "widget" as you imply above. It's art, it's tech, it's handmade, and it's being done by a fairly small group of people. Understanding the context, culture, and people involved are part of the fun! It's a very tough business to make a living in, and Stern is one of the few companies that has figured out how to do it!

#254 4 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

That sounds great. Don't know why Stern can't simply tell the community (to help some folks sleep better. Seems like a small bone to throw the community. Can't see the downside of keeping us in the loop.

#276 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Of course we'd like it to be faster...but these are human beings. There are only so many hours in a day. They're doing what they can do.

Sorry Greg, I don't buy that. So many factors influence programmer productivity, but simply saying "They're doing what they can do." implies they are doing all they can do (which I have a hard time believing). If you meant, *given their individual talents, Stern's manufacturing centric-culture, and reality that most software talent doesn't gravitate toward Stern*, "They're doing what they can do.", then I can buy it

One of the most astute managers I've had the pleasure to work for believes that there can be a 100x productivity difference between the best programmers and less-than-great programmers (and it's not about how fast they can type. It's about a lot of things, which obviously includes working smart and not reinventing the wheel. The tools/culture have to support working "smart", but when the stars align, it's a beautiful thing.

Not trying to beat a dead horse and argue, however it's disappointing that Stern just never seems to gain any traction when it comes to timely software updates. Not to mention lack of innovation (like colored dots or high-resolution images). Oh well...

2 months later
#1430 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Tend to disagree, as the guy is doing what he is told to do.
Rather than repeatedly personally insulting the guy, the poster would be better served picking up the phone and calling Dave Peterson, the guy who owns the company, and ask him about it. He's the guy calling the shots and paying the bills.

Hi rd...totally agree with you that personal attacks aren't appropriate. People need to target their frustration at Stern. If a programmer isn't capable of keeping up with Stern schedules, they need to change the schedule or change the programmer. The notion that all programmers are interchangeable is ridiculous. I managed software engineers for 20 years and part of the "art of management" is estimating how long specific people will take to complete specific tasks. Stern just doesn't seem to care...

5 months later
#1919 3 years ago

I'd like to see the code improved, but seeing Bowen's tutorial helped me understand some subtle aspects of the current code.

If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend.

1 year later
#3601 2 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I thought you KISS guys might like this:
Today’s Paul Stanley experience.
Today we went for a big walk around Hollywood and Melrose, as we like to do. You see so much more of a city just walking everywhere. We went to The Grove shopping centre to see the new Thor movie, and I saw a sign at Barnes and Noble that said Paul Stanley was going to sign the new KISS book at 7pm. So I go to check it out ... I’m not the stalker fanboy type at all, but what the hell, we haven’t got anything better to do ... so I buy the huge book (not bad deal for $55 too, I honestly thought it’d be $100+ knowing KISS...) and get my wristband for the signing. The guy said they were expecting 250 people there, so I lined up just after 6pm behind about 50 others. They made an announcement that Paul didn’t like hand shakes, only fist bumps, and only the KISS books were allowed to be signed, nothing else. And no posing for photos, only ones from the queue.
Just after 7, Paul and Lynn Goldsmith (the photographer) came out of a side room and started signing. My guess is there were about 100-120 people there.
Of course, there was some photo posing going on, despite the organiser guy trying to hurry things along. Paul was chatty to most people, in the 30 seconds they were allowed to stand there.
Finally my turn came up ... got my book, walked up to Paul and hit him with a fistpump and said “hi Paul, all the way from New Zealand ...”
“New Zeeeeeland! We haven’t been there for a while ... we’ll be coming back down there soon”
“Oh yeah, that’s cool. I’ve seen you quite a few times in Australia as well”
“Aaaasome! We’ll be back down there soon and I’ll be looking out for you!”
“Aaaaahh ok. Cool. Thanks Paul! Thanks Lynn!” *fistpumps*
And that was it. Lol
My rock star moment of the day.
Then we went to Canters (the famous deli where GnR hung out with Mark Canter) and had a Pastrami Reuben. Bloody good it was too.

Thanks for sharing the Paul Stanley signing. If you get a chance, check out Paul Stanley's Soul Station. Saw them at a small club in LA and was blown away.


7 months later
#3884 1 year ago

KISS is a simple, great shooting game. Would appreciate an update, but I'd be really surprised if it makes a noticeable difference in gameplay.

AS is also a simple game, great shooting game.

Nothing epic about the rulesets, but the games are still fun. If you want an epic ruleset that makes your brain hurt, pickup a Star Wars!


#3892 1 year ago
Quoted from Scot0308:

I agree, but I also think expectations need to be reasonable. I think Stern should fix reported "bugs", but I don't believe at this point it's reasonable to expect additional functionality. This game is already really fun imo.
I'm a software developer and I can confirm that coding is very expensive. I also have a degree in economics and I understand that as a business it is not feasible to invest more into a product than expected return. Keep in mind any enhancements they make to the game will introduce additional faults, ehich will cost more money to fix. Where will this money come from?
Kiss is already an awesome game. There isn't much they can do without a significant investment to improve the game. I won't hesitate to buy the game back at some point even if code stays the same.
If you like maiden better sell your kiss and buy one.

If you are a software developer and have a degree in economics, you'll understand that software "updates" are at the core of almost any product. Phone apps, car apps, TV apps, audio apps, operating systems, firmware, etc. are *constantly* being updated over the Internet. In many instances, automatically. Companies consider this a cost of doing business and improving their product.

If a company like JJP can "find the money" to update software, Stern certainly can! Not about economics or even business model...this is about *motivation*. Unfortunately, Stern's company culture regarding updates is wildly dependent on the lead programmers *motivation* to push for updates. It's been well documented over the years that Lymon Sheets goes the extra mile (even if it means working "after hours") while some other programmers don't. It's just a crap shoot, which is why this is frustrating yet very predictable!


#3897 1 year ago
Quoted from Scot0308:

Let me get this straight. You think all stern developers should work extra hours to make every game perfect even if the game is no longer in production and results in the company losing money? How would you feel if your boss came up to you and said we need you to work ten extra hours per week indefinetly with no additional pay to make something minutely better? Your business model would put Stern out of business within a couple years.

Are you telling me that Stern doesn't update games that are out of production? fwiw, I no longer have a "boss", because I have no problem working extra hours to make my product great.

I can tell you are here to defend/argue, not acknowledge that updating code with bug fixes and minor enhancements is the rule for most products on the planet, not the exception. Profitable companies (like Stern) can accomplish this *without* requiring employees do it in their spare time.

vireland has it right...all about the lead programmer in the pinball industry (not specific to Stern). Keith Johnson is another programmer (currently working for JJP) that is constantly perfecting his games. I never discussed this issue with Keith, but I imagine some of the work is "after hours". People who love their work, work overtime (without their *bosses* intervention). It's called loving what you do...


1 month later
#3950 1 year ago
Quoted from Chuckwebster:

Pinburgh code drop like they did a few years ago? Keeping hope alive for both AS and Kiss. I have both of the games setup next to my Iron Maiden and they seem so shallow in comparison.

If we are lucky enough to get AS/KISS updates, the pins "depth" is highly unlikely to change at all.


4 months later
#4172 1 year ago

Always loved the way this game shoots. Relieved to see this update!

I won't have access to my game for awhile and have one question...are the dots improved?


7 months later
#4226 10 months ago
Quoted from Rolls-Royce:

Has someone here installed a Color DMD in a KISS Pinball? Any pics or videos about it please?...

I don't think anyone has developed the dots for it yet.

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