(Topic ID: 149373)

Where is the KISS code?


By TheRave

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 months ago by HoneyBadger
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There are 4231 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 85.
#251 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Forums like this have a spectrum of people and have been living through the Stern saga for years.
The only reason to "care" about Stern's "culture" is to understand the context. When I first took the dive into pinball collecting in 2004, I was lucky to purchase LOTR and TSPP (2 of Stern's most awesome & complete games). As time past, the products cheapened and the software shipped with many issues.
After being a customer of Stern's products for 12 years now, they clearly "major in" pinball manufacturing and "minor in" pinball software. That means software innovation & completeness isn't a priority. That's why we don't have color dots. Fortunately, there are awesome 3rd party products that help push the ball forward (for example, ColorDMD just released a product for TRON
Ironically, even though Stern's software may not be bleeding edge and updates can be frustrating, they have still produced some of the best rulesets in all of pinball. When comparing Stern's with B/W machines, most people agree that Stern rulesets are deeper and more fun for serious players (particularly for home use). How/Why? Because Lyman Sheets is one of the best players and programmers in the business. From my perspective, he has had a huge hand in Stern's ability to produce some awesome machines.
To summarize, building pinball machines isn't like building any "widget" as you imply above. It's art, it's tech, it's handmade, and it's being done by a fairly small group of people. Understanding the context, culture, and people involved are part of the fun! It's a very tough business to make a living in, and Stern is one of the few companies that has figured out how to do it!

Well said Steve! For all the complaining we do at the end of the day the games most people rate the highest are Sterns!

10
#253 3 years ago

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

#254 3 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

That sounds great. Don't know why Stern can't simply tell the community (to help some folks sleep better. Seems like a small bone to throw the community. Can't see the downside of keeping us in the loop.

#255 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

are you related to gary stern?
fact, i paid 7600 for stern kiss le with beta code
fact, 8 mos later and no code update
fact, get me my new code (in time) and I will be a happy returning customer.
fact, at this point I will never buy another nib stern.

I'm not condoning the code situation. I'm just explaining the reality of it.

#256 3 years ago

We can all sit here and go back and forth justifying or villainizing the speed in which Stern releases code updates...but at the end of the day, right or wrong, I expect more from the company that I've given a great deal of my money to over the past few years.

#257 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

...but at the end of the day, right or wrong, I expect more from the company that I've given a great deal of my money to over the past few years.

I hear you....and at the end of the day I do not. Why? Because they keep doing it again and again, and people here seem to think it's going to magically change.

#258 3 years ago

I wish they would just keep the same code and do an engineering update that includes getting rid of the AWFUL gene head. Then a new code or whatever.

#259 3 years ago
Quoted from joekiss:

do an engineering update that includes getting rid of the AWFUL gene head

Really? I think that is a very cool part of the machine. Are you having issues with it working correctly or do you just really dislike it?

#260 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

We can all sit here and go back and forth justifying or villainizing the speed in which Stern releases code updates...but at the end of the day, right or wrong, I expect more from the company that I've given a great deal of my money to over the past few years.

Quoted from TheLaw:

I hear you....and at the end of the day I do not. Why? Because they keep doing it again and again, and people here seem to think it's going to magically change.

And with all due respect...it will never change when people like yourself just accept it and don't demand more. As a community, we have the ability to unite and become influential "lobbyists" and possibly someday create a paradigm shift in Stern's thinking towards its business practices.

#261 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

And with all due respect...it will never change when people like yourself just accept it and don't demand more. As a community, we have the ability to unite and become influential "lobbyists" and possibly someday create a paradigm shift in Stern's thinking towards its business practices.

What can you do? Buy or not buy. That's it, really. If you buy, be patient. Waiting for your game to rock kinda sucks - but lately Stern has really shown that they're not gonna let games die. Avengers and WWE updates are proof they care. They're behind the deadline...but they care.

#262 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

And with all due respect...it will never change when people like yourself just accept it and don't demand more.

Correct, and also with all due respect, I lobby by not spending my monies on games that are horribly unfinished.
I bought MET after A YEAR when they finally implemented CIU. GOT is way ahead of the game, and worth the risk to me, and their most completed game I can remember.

What gets their goat more? Me not spending monies until it's done, or a bunch of people complaining (on Pinside no less) aboot the monies they already spent.

I hear you man, I would be pissed too, and might end up being with GOT, but to not expect it I'll never understand.

#263 3 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

ETA? in time for TPF March 18-20 ?

#264 3 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

After this quote there should be no more complaining unless the new code just ends up being terrible. MN has been spot on for the last 4 years since I have been on Pinside. He doesn't get a lot wrong.

#265 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

What can you do? Buy or not buy. That's it, really.

Granted...buy or not buy is probably the greatest influence we have with Stern...but I'm pretty sure someone within Stern's management, if not Gary himself, reads a lot of what is posted on Pinside. If the overall vibe of this community is interpreted as we're not happy, but we're going to live with it...Stern won't change a thing in the way they do business. But maybe, just maybe, if the overall vibe of the community is we're fed up and we're not going to take it anymore...and with all of the new up and coming pin manufacturers...Stern might be forced to face the reality the change is necessary so they don't become the next IBM. Bottom line...accepting it the way it is, nothing will ever change...expressing our displeasure could at some point bring about change.

#266 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

Granted...buy or not buy is probably the greatest influence we have with Stern...but I'm pretty sure someone within Stern's management, if not Gary himself, reads a lot of what is posted on Pinside. If the overall vibe of this community is interpreted as we're not happy, but we're going to live with it...Stern won't change a thing in the way they do business. But maybe, just maybe, if the overall vibe of the community is we're fed up and we're not going to take it anymore...and with all of the new up and coming pin manufacturers...Stern might be forced to face the reality the change is necessary so they don't become the next IBM. Bottom line...accepting it the way it is, nothing will ever change...expressing our displeasure, could at some point bring about change.

Creating "commercial gaming art" like pinball isn't an exact science. They have to keep the line moving....if they delayed every game until they were to the enthusiasts satisfaction, they wouldn't have product to build and sell. The truth is, most players aren't going to notice the stuff we notice. So, the games can be built, sold and enjoyed by the masses. The good news is, Stern does listen to their hardcore buyers and get the games where they need to be...eventually. From what I understand, Kiss had a very short design process...if John Borg whipped out the design in a fraction of the time other designers get, then that also means the programmer had less time to figure out the rules - so it makes sense why Kiss is pretty bare bones and why MNpinball is saying the update is going to be pretty huge.

-1
#267 3 years ago

I got more down votes! All by the same person, he should be so proud!

#268 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Creating "commercial gaming art" like pinball isn't an exact science. They have to keep the line moving....if they delayed every game until they were to the enthusiasts satisfaction, they wouldn't have product to build and sell. The truth is, most players aren't going to notice the stuff we notice. So, the games can be built, sold and enjoyed by the masses. The good news is, Stern does listen to their hardcore buyers and get the games where they need to be...eventually. From what I understand, Kiss had a very short design process...if John Borg whipped out the design in a fraction of the time other designers get, then that also means the programmer had less time to figure out the rules - so it makes sense why Kiss is pretty bare bones and why MNpinball is saying the update is going to be pretty huge.

And in retrospect, GoT had 1 year and 9 mo design and code and look at how that turned out

#269 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I hear you man, I would be pissed too, and might end up being with GOT, but to not expect it I'll never understand.

There are 2 fallacies in your statement that I would like to clear up. First of all, I'm not "pissed", just not pleased...Secondly, I do expect Stern's code updates to be slow when I purchase a NIB pin, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with it. A lot of Pinsiders, including myself, believe Stern could and should be more timely with their updates. Hopefully voicing our opinions in threads like this, someone within Stern's management will read them and decide to change the way they do business before there is a significant amount of consumer backlash, ultimately causing Stern to sell less pins and significantly hurting their bottom line. I'm not a Stern hater, I want them to stay in business so they can keep producing the pins we all love to play. I'm just afraid they're not seeing the growing discontent from the consumers who buy their products and might not realize it until it's too late.

#270 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

Granted...buy or not buy is probably the greatest influence we have with Stern...but I'm pretty sure someone within Stern's management, if not Gary himself, reads a lot of what is posted on Pinside. If the overall vibe of this community is interpreted as we're not happy, but we're going to live with it...Stern won't change a thing in the way they do business. But maybe, just maybe, if the overall vibe of the community is we're fed up and we're not going to take it anymore...and with all of the new up and coming pin manufacturers...Stern might be forced to face the reality the change is necessary so they don't become the next IBM. Bottom line...accepting it the way it is, nothing will ever change...expressing our displeasure could at some point bring about change.

They asked this guy why pinball is the way it is...

#271 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Creating "commercial gaming art" like pinball isn't an exact science. They have to keep the line moving....if they delayed every game until they were to the enthusiasts satisfaction, they wouldn't have product to build and sell. The truth is, most players aren't going to notice the stuff we notice. So, the games can be built, sold and enjoyed by the masses. The good news is, Stern does listen to their hardcore buyers and get the games where they need to be...eventually. From what I understand, Kiss had a very short design process...if John Borg whipped out the design in a fraction of the time other designers get, then that also means the programmer had less time to figure out the rules - so it makes sense why Kiss is pretty bare bones and why MNpinball is saying the update is going to be pretty huge.

Totally agree...my argument isn't that they released KISS and other pins with incomplete code, but instead the untimely manner in which they release updates. I don't think anyone here believes Stern is releasing code updates with lightning speed...some believe it should be faster...and some just accept that it's not and never will be. I just happen to be one of those people that believe it should be faster and I also believe that if we were united in that opinion as a community, we could bring about change.

#272 3 years ago

Whenever people are bitching about how long it takes for a code update, it's always fun to look back at the 7 year code update on TZ.....

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/5exaK_Q8-Pc/70Tl7ojZvBAJ

#273 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

Totally agree...my argument isn't that they released KISS and other pins with incomplete code, but instead the untimely manner in which they release updates. I don't think anyone here believes Stern is releasing code updates with lightning speed...some believe it should be faster...and some just accept that it's not and never will be. I just happen to be one of those people that believe it should be faster and I also believe that if we were united in that opinion as a community, we could bring about change.

Of course we'd like it to be faster...but these are human beings. There are only so many hours in a day. They're doing what they can do.

#274 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Of course we'd like it to be faster...but these are human beings. There are only so many hours in a day. They're doing what they can do.

This will be my last post on this subject, at least for a while, because I think I've expressed my feelings as well as I possibly can. But I would like to respond to your last post by saying you are correct when stating, "there are only so many hours in a day". But I don't believe you are correct when saying, "they're doing what they can do". There are plenty of "human beings" that have the ability to write code...Stern just needs to hire them!

#275 3 years ago
Quoted from ZippyThePinhead:

This will be my last post on this subject, at least for a while, because I think I've expressed my feelings as well as I possibly can. But I would like to respond to your last post by saying you are correct when stating, "there are only so many hours in a day". But I don't believe you are correct when saying, "they're doing what they can do". There are plenty of "human beings" that have the ability to write code...Stern just needs to hire them!

This is game creation, not making widgets. More people doesn't always help when doing something weirdly specific and specialized like pinball.

#276 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Of course we'd like it to be faster...but these are human beings. There are only so many hours in a day. They're doing what they can do.

Sorry Greg, I don't buy that. So many factors influence programmer productivity, but simply saying "They're doing what they can do." implies they are doing all they can do (which I have a hard time believing). If you meant, *given their individual talents, Stern's manufacturing centric-culture, and reality that most software talent doesn't gravitate toward Stern*, "They're doing what they can do.", then I can buy it

One of the most astute managers I've had the pleasure to work for believes that there can be a 100x productivity difference between the best programmers and less-than-great programmers (and it's not about how fast they can type. It's about a lot of things, which obviously includes working smart and not reinventing the wheel. The tools/culture have to support working "smart", but when the stars align, it's a beautiful thing.

Not trying to beat a dead horse and argue, however it's disappointing that Stern just never seems to gain any traction when it comes to timely software updates. Not to mention lack of innovation (like colored dots or high-resolution images). Oh well...

#277 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

are you related to gary stern?
fact, i paid 7600 for stern kiss le with beta code
fact, 8 mos later and no code update
fact, get me my new code (in time) and I will be a happy returning customer.
fact, at this point I will never buy another nib stern.

Fact: it has been this way for 10 titles prior to kiss.

Fact: it's been well documented and discussed that it was this way.

Fact: you chose to ignore all of that and buy right away anyway instead of waiting till code was solid.

Fact: no one honestly feels sorry for you.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. Just burnt out on beating this dead horse. Everyone does this again and again, they buy the next title thinking " it will be different this time around, it has to be different this time" then when it's not? Bitch, bitch, bitch. I'm not defending stern but also the definition of insanity is doing the samething over and over and expect different results.

#278 3 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

More songs added???

#279 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

That sounds great. Don't know why Stern can't simply tell the community (to help some folks sleep better. Seems like a small bone to throw the community. Can't see the downside of keeping us in the loop.

Exactly.
In the notes of the last WWE update they said they had been working on it "Behind the Scenes"
To me that is one of their last problems to fix as far as we the customer are concerned.
We would much rather hear the current status of the code, so like you said, some of us could sleep better.
We don't need an exact date. Just info of how major or minor the changes are so far would be nice.
But I guess we will have to keep dreaming.

#280 3 years ago
Quoted from Dr-Willy:

Fact: it has been this way for 10 titles prior to kiss.

I'm really not trying to be a dick. Just burnt out on beating this dead horse. Everyone does this again and again, they buy the next title thinking " it will be different this time around, it has to be different this time" then when it's not? Bitch, bitch, bitch. I'm not defending stern but also the definition of insanity is doing the samething over and over and expect different results.

I am not so sure this applies if you are an LE buyer. Unless you are a gambler, the choice is pretty clear that buying it ASAP is the best way to go if it is a "title" that appeals to you. Once they sell out(meaning distributors are out of them) , you are now in the secondary market. Is the game killer? TRON LE, ACDC LE's, or is it a dog? WWE LE, Transformers LE. There is the gamble, you gonna pay $10K or $5K?

LE NIB buyers pay more, and expect more. They should have a louder voice with Stern, they paid for that right.

That being said, I will never buy another LE from Stern. KISS was my dream title, but in my opinion, the LE was a RIPOFF. Premium was the way to go on this one. I have #565, it will never leave my possession, just never again. Honestly, that feeling has nothing to do with code.

BUT, my main rant that started all this 8 months later is I don't have a simple sound(s) for lane switches, the most basic of programming! For the $ I paid, that is BEYOND ridiculous.

So Stern could throw out code 1.05 right away to sell those $400 toppers, but I can't have a simple and basic code update 1.06 for a basic sound? Gee, my 1979 KISS can make those sounds! That simple gesture/update would have appeased many KISS owners until the next update.

Screw status quo, rattle some cages. Very sorry if that upsets some people or classifies me as a "whiner". Awe...don't push the programmers, they are sensitive because they make a special product. BULLSH*T !

#281 3 years ago

One month since the original post. No update on code or insight on possible release of it. I wish they could set a timeline and just tell me it's 3 months out. That would be fine with me.

-4
#282 3 years ago
Quoted from TheRave:

One month since the original post. No update on code or insight on possible release of it. I wish they could set a timeline and just tell me it's 3 months out. That would be fine with me.

Go play one of your other 29 machines.

#283 3 years ago
Quoted from TheRave:

One month since the original post. No update on code or insight on possible release of it. I wish they could set a timeline and just tell me it's 3 months out. That would be fine with me.

They tried to do that with Transformers and it backfired because they missed the deadline by months. If there is one thing we know about Stern is 1) They make games before they can code them 2) They can't keep a deadline (codewise) to save their lives. 3) Don't buy NIB until code is done to your liking

#284 3 years ago
Quoted from TheRave:

One month since the original post. No update on code or insight on possible release of it.

Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

#285 3 years ago
Quoted from Dr-Willy:

Fact: it has been this way for 10 titles prior to kiss.
Fact: it's been well documented and discussed that it was this way.
Fact: you chose to ignore all of that and buy right away anyway instead of waiting till code was solid.
Fact: no one honestly feels sorry for you.
I'm really not trying to be a dick. Just burnt out on beating this dead horse. Everyone does this again and again, they buy the next title thinking " it will be different this time around, it has to be different this time" then when it's not? Bitch, bitch, bitch. I'm not defending stern but also the definition of insanity is doing the samething over and over and expect different results.

fact: I am new to pins so forgive my ignorance......I was not aware that a 7500 pin took 2 years to complete. caveat emptor

#286 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Go play one of your other 29 machines.

Very productive feedback Eggy. Just for reference 26 of those 29 machines are set up in a warehouse for the public to play every week. Said facility is 75 minutes away from where I live. Some of us do more than just complain on these forums. Some of us actually give back to the pin community. Sorry if it bums me out that of the 40 games we have set up, KISS dwindles in play every week.

#287 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

So Stern could throw out code 1.05 right away to sell those $400 toppers, but I can't have a simple and basic code update 1.06 for a basic sound? Gee, my 1979 KISS can make those sounds! That simple gesture/update would have appeased many KISS owners until the next update.

One thing is clear - Lonnie doesn't like to do incrament updates. You have to wait a bit, but get one mega update.

#288 3 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

KISS is not just getting an update and bug fix cleanup, it's getting a HUGE rework. This is why the delay. Once the code drops it will be a substantial update !

Quoted from Rarehero:

One thing is clear - Lonnie doesn't like to do incrament updates. You have to wait a bit, but get one mega update.

I sooo hope you both are right - I love the sound of a rework

#289 3 years ago

I really wouldn't care if it took one year to update KISS if we were to get small updates throughout that year than one BiG update a year later. I think others would agree.

On a positive note with all the recent updates for other games it would make me think that KISS has got to be next, what else really needs a big update that is in production?

#290 3 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

I really wouldn't care if it took one year to update KISS if we were to get small updates throughout that year than one BiG update a year later. I think others would agree.
On a positive note with all the recent updates for other games it would make me think that KISS has got to be next, what else really needs a big update that is in production?

To really round things off
ST needs a final final polish
KISS needs alot of love
WWE will need a final polish
GOT is doing really well

All in all I think Stern is really doing an effort to catch up on older titles while addressing code issues on GOT. If they keep going like this 2016 will be a great year for games and code. Tipping my hat off to them.

#291 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Tipping my hat off to them.

That's quite a hat

#292 3 years ago

Stern is on a roll. Avengers, Mustang, GOT, etc. Glad I kept the faith with Kiss and I hope the update is huge.

#293 3 years ago

me too cant wait !!

#294 3 years ago

Has anyone mentioned that when you keep hitting the flippers as the ball goes into Genes mouth he does not say 'ball 1 locked' and the ball gets thrown out straight away without the speech and delay ?
We have 2 kiss pros and tried it on both .. seems like a bug?
Bring in the code

#295 3 years ago
Quoted from Wakky:

Has anyone mentioned that when you keep hitting the flippers as the ball goes into Genes mouth he does not say 'ball 1 locked' and the ball gets thrown out straight away without the speech and delay ?
We have 2 kiss pros and tried it on both .. seems like a bug?
Bring in the code

Not a bug, that will happen whenever you get a ball into most any scoop of any game, and you don't want to wait for speech or animations. Hit both flippers a couple of times and the ball will eject immediately.

#296 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Not trying to beat a dead horse

See post #2 and don't forget to downvote!

#297 3 years ago
Quoted from thundergod76:

See post #2 and don't forget to downvote!

In on the downvote!

#298 3 years ago

Pic from Stern's FB page.. Even these folks know which machine needs an update!!

12764433_10153939725274244_7543642772676950325_o_(resized).jpg

#299 3 years ago

Where is the Kiss code?

#300 3 years ago

its so close....i can feel it, right around the corner. A huge update...do you feel it ?

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