(Topic ID: 149373)

Where is the KISS code?


By TheRave

3 years ago



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There are 4231 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 85.
#201 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Your 100% correct, has ZERO bearing on ABILITY. The ability to figure out the programming issues has always been there. How about focusing on that said ABILITY?
Does it make more sense to anyone if I put it in this scenario?
Gary Stern orders his management team into into his office and says "Guys, our line production is down(quantity, not shut down) due to supplier issues that are out of our control. Since some of you(his management team) have some extra time, I would like us to concentrate on figuring out what we need to get our programming department the ability to get game code more complete and out faster."
It happens every day in business and manufacturing. If you are slower on one end, you figure how to get more productive on the other!
That my friends is COMMON SENSE.
Here is my original quote:
"You would think that since STERN can't really build anything at the moment, programming would be the top priority." That pretty much sums up the above scenario.
No way am I implying Stern works on common sense!

I hope they get the next code release out soon as it is way over due on WWE and KISS and if I was an owner I would be frustrated also. But I don't think Gary or any management is think we are having production delays and parts issues so lets focus on code. They are thinking we are losing a fortune due to production delays and parts issues that need all of our focus.

#202 3 years ago

I don't understand. there are probably 10s of thousands of I phone apps and thousands of programmers. yet stern cant write code on a pinball in under a year? I mean you have your pin expert/designer tell the code writers, we need this to happen when the metal ball hits this switch etc etc. I used to work for a licensed electrician, he would come to work place with a chalk and mark everything he needed done and we would go to town. he would go on to next job. when we would finish he would certify the job with his license. its called delegating.

#203 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

I don't understand. there are probably 10s of thousands of I phone apps and thousands of programmers. yet stern cant write code on a pinball in under a year? I mean you have your pin expert/designer tell the code writers, we need this to happen when the metal ball hits this switch etc etc. I used to work for a licensed electrician, he would come to work place with a chalk and mark everything he needed done and we would go to town. he would go on to next job. when we would finish he would certify the job with his license. its called delegating.

Creating fun is different than what an electrician does.

#204 3 years ago

I don't get the delays either. Can't they just hire more coders? How hard can it be?

#205 3 years ago

The last 30 posts have been so circular. You don't understand , no you dont understand, no you still don't understand, I understand it is you who don't understand. And that is the summary for today.

#206 3 years ago

There is no "focusing" on code. The only thing that you can provide for programmers to generate more code is more time to do it. So you are either "focusing" on code for new or current product or older product.

If you are running "lean" with just enough programmers to "finish" the product as physical demand for shipment of product deadlines approach and pass for the company to remain solvent, resources like time become no longer available as the transition to the next product has already begun.

We should remember a place in time not so long ago when Stern games shipped with much fuller, all but finished code with rules, dots and sounds for all features at the time of shipment.

More programmers would likely initially be a hindrance as they curved the learn of the platform and basics of pinball code and how to implement it so the designer's expectations were met.

Like it or not, a "finished" pinball machine is one that accepts money, provides a certain amount of play/entertainment, and then ends the game so more entertainment can be purchased again. Anything beyond that is "unnecessary" added-value for the consumer.

The consumer can only affect the production model by choosing not to purchase the entertainment at the offered price point. Complaining after the purchase is too late. You are at the mercy of production schedules and available man-hours for any added-value content. A manufacturer running lean may never revisit that product for added-value content (wheel of torture).

More programmers is a long-term solution. More time during production is a short-term solution.

Entirely un-informed and uneducated opinion on my part, but that's how it breaks down to me.

#207 3 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

I hope they get the next code release out soon as it is way over due on WWE and KISS

WWE was just updated minutes ago

#208 3 years ago

Mabey kiss code is around the corner

#209 3 years ago

Gonna take a lot more than a new code for this one. I bought it as a KISS fan otherwise would be long gone. Too many design flaws on this one for me. Not a real fun game.

#210 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

The last 30 posts have been so circular. You don't understand , no you dont understand, no you still don't understand, I understand it is you who don't understand. And that is the summary for today.

Schlock!! Always adding value folks

#211 3 years ago
Quoted from joekiss:

Gonna take a lot more than a new code for this one. I bought it as a KISS fan otherwise would be long gone. Too many design flaws on this one for me. Not a real fun game.

I think the game is fun and the layout is good my advice to u is sell it you can still be a kiss fan and hate the game im not really a kiss fan but like the pin go figure sell it buy another repeat

-1
#212 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Vdojak- you don't get it. Telling programmers "work faster" isn't the answer. The problem is resource management from the inception of a title. Unfortunately Stern often starts programming very late in the design phase, and it's just not enough time. To create something creative, people need enough time. They didn't have enough time on Kiss and they're still working. It will be done when it's done. Brandishing the whip accomplishes nothing...in fact sometimes it slows people down because it stresses them out or pisses them off. I work with artists on tight deadlines...sometimes due to the nature of the project, the deadline is unreasonable. I can yell "faster faster" till my eyeballs pop out - but that won't change the reality of "a man can only do so much".

Please tell me where I said "tell the programmers work faster" Again, you guys are making shit up!

#213 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Please tell me where I said "tell the programmers work faster" Again, you guys are making shit up!

When nothing you say makes sense and everyone is telling you that - it's not us, it's you.

#214 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

The last 30 posts have been so circular. You don't understand , no you dont understand, no you still don't understand, I understand it is you who don't understand. And that is the summary for today.

That's because you just don't understand!

#215 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Creating fun is different than what an electrician does.

try playing your pin unplugged than

-1
#216 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

When nothing you say makes sense and everyone is telling you that - it's not us, it's you.

I see where you are coming from. You decided to use deflection, because you could NOT answer the question I posed.

It's OK by me, it just proves that you want to make something out of nothing at all. I have made my points through common business sense all because I would like Stern to focus on code issues.

I never said make the production people work on programming. I never said make programmers work faster. I never said put out unfinished codes. Nothing makes sense because you guys keep making up shit that I never said!

#217 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

try playing your pin unplugged than

There are a lot of horrible analogies in this thread.

Lets recap:

-Coding pinball has nothing to do with factory production
-Coding pinball is different than coding iPhone apps
-Coding pinball has literally nothing to do with how an electrician approaches their work.

#218 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

I see where you are coming from. You decided to use deflection, because you could NOT answer the question I posed.
It's OK by me, it just proves that you want to make something out of nothing at all. I have made my points through common business sense all because I would like Stern to focus on code issues.

Your question is unanswerable because your premise makes zero sense. YOUR EXACT WORDS:

Quoted from vdojaq:

Gary Stern orders his management team into into his office and says "Guys, our line production is down(quantity, not shut down) due to supplier issues that are out of our control. Since some of you(his management team) have some extra time,

Who has extra time!? The coding teams do not have extra time because the line is down! You made a direct correlation between the line and coding ability.

Quoted from vdojaq:

I would like us to concentrate on figuring out what we need to get our programming department the ability to get game code more complete and out faster."

And there it is..."get it done faster". There's no actual solution for doing such a thing...just Gary saying to go fast lol. Creating something like pinball gameplay doesn't work that way! When code isn't done, only one thing is at fault: Not enough time on the schedule before launch. Post launch and those programmers are playing catchup while also working on new projects. It'll get done when it's done, management saying "faster" will not accomplish anything.

-1
#219 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

There are a lot of horrible analogies in this thread.
Lets recap:
-Coding pinball has nothing to do with factory production
-Coding pinball is different than coding iPhone apps
-Coding pinball has literally nothing to do with how an electrician approaches their work.

Please ad:
-Coding pinball is performed by people other than the idiots(all of us) on pinside arguing about the people who do the coding.

#220 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Your question is unanswerable because your premise makes zero sense. YOUR EXACT WORDS:

Who has extra time!? The coding teams do not have extra time because the line is down! You made a direct correlation between the line and coding ability.

And there it is..."get it done faster". There's no actual solution for doing such a thing...just Gary saying to go fast lol. Creating something like pinball gameplay doesn't work that way! When code isn't done, only one thing is at fault: Not enough time on the schedule before launch. Post launch and those programmers are playing catchup while also working on new projects. It'll get done when it's done, management saying "faster" will not accomplish anything.

You have a severe case of faulty reading comprehension

#221 3 years ago

The only thing worse than not having new KISS code is having to read negative back n forth exchanges by pinball addicts. Please guys lets keep this one on topic. If you'd like to argue semantics please do it via PM from this point forward.

#222 3 years ago
Quoted from Delta9:

I think the game is fun and the layout is good my advice to u is sell it you can still be a kiss fan and hate the game im not really a kiss fan but like the pin go figure sell it buy another repeat

I agree. I'm no kiss fan but the game is fun to bang around on and beautiful to look at. Really hope code makes it something more meaningful than that though.

-1
#223 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

The only thing worse than not having new KISS code is having to read negative back n forth exchanges by pinball addicts. Please guys lets keep this one on topic. If you'd like to argue semantics please do it via PM from this point forward.

But I wanted more down votes!

#224 3 years ago

Funny, no one ever complains about Zizzle's code.

#225 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

You have a severe case of faulty reading comprehension

Projection. When one person here goes to bat for your take on this, you'll have some ammo against me. Until then...go away.

#226 3 years ago

Its a gorgeous game and looks great next to my 78 Bally in my KISS room. Playing wise? Pretty much a dud. The STDM Gene head. I have adjusted it and its not 100% every time like it was about 50%. Just an awful feature. Mine has automatic drain lane slingshots. In similar fashion to TWD it has the shoot the ball hit the bumpers then STDM feature. The scoop is just almost unmakeable. Just bounces off of it. I can kind of get it to roll in. people come over play a game or two then usually move onto something else.

#227 3 years ago
Quoted from joekiss:

Its a gorgeous game and looks great next to my 78 Bally in my KISS room. Playing wise? Pretty much a dud. The STDM Gene head. I have adjusted it and its not 100% every time like it was about 50%. Just an awful feature. Mine has automatic drain lane slingshots. In similar fashion to TWD it has the shoot the ball hit the bumpers then STDM feature. The scoop is just almost unmakeable. Just bounces off of it. I can kind of get it to roll in. people come over play a game or two then usually move onto something else.

Couldn't disagree with you more. The design & flow is absolutely killer. SDTM is an easily fixed. Only downside for me at this point is the code.

#228 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Couldn't disagree with you more. The design & flow is absolutely killer. SDTM is an easily fixed. Only downside for me at this point is the code.

How do I fix it? Can you make the right ramp easier to hit?

#229 3 years ago
Quoted from joekiss:

How do I fix it? Can you make the right ramp easier to hit?

I wouldn't want the ramp to be easier to hit the point is for it to be difficult to make by design. You can adjust the power and slightly bend the guide inside Genes mouth (on right hand side). I made the adjustment took about 15 minutes and never had another problem with it going SDTM.

#230 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Couldn't disagree with you more. The design & flow is absolutely killer. SDTM is an easily fixed. Only downside for me at this point is the code.

It just came to me this weekend, but I don't like the kiss layout. I have never really been against the game until I sat back and thought, there just aren't a lot of "fun" or "rewarding" shots on the game.
Lower half of the PF is dominated by stand up banks which aren't exciting, and a rarely used scoop.
I don't like Lawlor shots so left loop isn't great, Ace shot is cool, but that area isn't that interesting. Middle ramp is nice, Gene's head is kind of lame and has it's own set of issues, right ramp is a little too far back and right loop is...well it's all just kind of "blah" to me.
Code doesn't bother me that much...but the layout just bores me. Of course that's juts me and it didn't dawn on me till now after playing it a bunch.

#231 3 years ago
Quoted from Delta9:

comes with a yellow light defuseer

Already have a topper, but tell me about this diffuser. Home made or store bought? Pics?

Thanks

#232 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

It just came to me this weekend, but I don't like the kiss layout. I have never really been against the game until I sat back and thought, there just aren't a lot of "fun" or "rewarding" shots on the game.

To each their own. Plenty of rewarding shots for me. Right ramp is tough, left loop is tough, scoop is tough. The games that tend to bore me are the ones where every ramp/shot is easy to hit. KISS has just the right mix of easy and tough shots for my liking. IMO the reward in a shot needs to be solidified by coding which right now is just not up to par. I totally get that some will love it and some will hate it just pointing out a few things I like on the field.

#233 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

I wouldn't want the ramp to be easier to hit the point is for it to be difficult to make by design. You can adjust the power and slightly bend the guide inside Genes mouth (on right hand side). I made the adjustment took about 15 minutes and never had another problem with it going SDTM.

I agree with this. The right ramp can be frustrating, but when I do hit it, it's awesome. Plus, it's kinda funny that when I do hit it, I can hit it repeatedly. When I can't hit it, it's very frustrating. And I love the layout of this game.

My machine has almost zero SDTM from Gene's head now. In the last few weeks (since I factory reset it because of another issue), I have had it go down the middle twice... and that was on consecutive shots. Otherwise, the ball has been spread around extremely nice.

I do get SDTM from the ball going halfway up the center ramp and then rolling back down fast. However, I'm not very good at shaking the machine so once I get better at that, I'm sure the SDTM from that will happen far less often.

#234 3 years ago
Quoted from Foo:

Already have a topper, but tell me about this diffuser. Home made or store bought? Pics?
Thanks

Home made yellow translucent plastic

#235 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

It just came to me this weekend, but I don't like the kiss layout. I have never really been against the game until I sat back and thought, there just aren't a lot of "fun" or "rewarding" shots on the game.
Lower half of the PF is dominated by stand up banks which aren't exciting, and a rarely used scoop.
I don't like Lawlor shots so left loop isn't great, Ace shot is cool, but that area isn't that interesting. Middle ramp is nice, Gene's head is kind of lame and has it's own set of issues, right ramp is a little too far back and right loop is...well it's all just kind of "blah" to me.
Code doesn't bother me that much...but the layout just bores me. Of course that's juts me and it didn't dawn on me till now after playing it a bunch.

This is my similar thoughts.. after playing GOT pro for the first time. I found no shot on GOT more difficult than hitting KISS left orbit on demand. GOT ramps shoot smooth but I would call them as satisfying as when I hit the right ramp in KISS. It seems like GOT shots you can hit from both flippers, all of them. Meh. different strokes. To me KISS shoots well, it just isn't wow. Hoping the update makes it wow or it will be gone. KISS fan or not..

#236 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

There are a lot of horrible analogies in this thread.
Lets recap:
-Coding pinball has nothing to do with factory production
-Coding pinball is different than coding iPhone apps
-Coding pinball has literally nothing to do with how an electrician approaches their work.

are you related to gary stern?
fact, i paid 7600 for stern kiss le with beta code
fact, 8 mos later and no code update
fact, get me my new code (in time) and I will be a happy returning customer.
fact, at this point I will never buy another nib stern.

#237 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

are you related to gary stern?
fact, i paid 7600 for stern kiss le with beta code
fact, 8 mos later and no code update
fact, get me my new code (in time) and I will be a happy returning customer.
fact, at this point I will never buy another nib stern.

That's just the way Stern works...this shouldn't be new to you as you own a Tron & MET, both taking over 1 year to complete code.

#238 3 years ago
Quoted from robotron:

are you related to gary stern?
fact, i paid 7600 for stern kiss le with beta code
fact, 8 mos later and no code update
fact, get me my new code (in time) and I will be a happy returning customer.
fact, at this point I will never buy another nib stern.

Fact: If you do your homework about a new game and play the hell out of it before you decide to buy it, and base your decision on how the game currently stands, you will never be disappointed.

#240 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Fact: If you do your homework about a new game and play the hell out of it before you decide to buy it, and base your decision on how the game currently stands, you will never be disappointed.

Fact: if you marry an ugly women you'll never be disappointed when she gets old fat and ugly.

But it sure would be nice to marry a hot chick that likes to workout and won't let herself go.

And it sure would be nice if stern would bake their code prior to releasing pins...or at least have it baked within 1/2 a year of release.

#241 3 years ago

Fact: If you smoke too much dope before posting in this thread there is a good chance your post will make zero sense.

#242 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

You have a severe case of faulty reading comprehension

Was surprised to see so much action on this vacuous thread...

After reading through the last two pages of posts, I believe your communication skills aren't quite as sharp as you imagine.

In addition, you don't appear to know much about software development and/or Stern's company culture/history.

I use to whine just like many folks in this thread. I threatened to "never buy until the code is complete". So much for whining and threats...if I like a license and have a slot, I move forward and hope that Stern does the right thing. They aren't going to change...so if it really irks people, wait on the sidelines. Stern doesn't care, but I understand why whining makes you feel better...form of group therapy I guess.

#243 3 years ago

There is more whine in this thread than Ace drank on the entire Dynasty tour in 1979!

Who doesn't want the new code... Duh

As pointed out already, you should know the history of Stern updates before purchasing. It won't be long until the new code is out and then you can complain that it'll be another year until another update is released...

Would it be better to hold off releasing or buying a Stern machine until all software is complete?

Maybe Apple should do the same and you can finally buy that new iPhone 4 with IOS9 this year?

Not a chance. Most have enjoyed many months of goodness from this awesome pin. Lots of shots and combos to master. This game is not for the weak.

Now complaining about buying a Hobbit and growing old waiting for it to arrive... Maybe. But Stern code updates taking too long?

Last time I checked, Kiss fans weren't such cry babies...

This game is great already and will only continue to move up the Top 100 as updates arrive. Some things are worth the wait...

Patience

-1
#244 3 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Was surprised to see so much action on this vacuous thread...
After reading through the last two pages of posts, I believe your communication skills aren't quite as sharp as you imagine.
In addition, you don't appear to know much about software development and/or Stern's company culture/history.

Ok, point taken.

However, when someone wants to take a couple of words and slant them to make a whole new meaning, they either are a politician or just an ignorant ass.

I don't claim to know about software development, nor do I care about Stern's "culture".

I just don't understand WTF the problem is with a customer making the point that they would like to see Stern put more emphasis on code.

That is all I did and a few want to twist my meaning, my words, and whatever.

Business is business, you produce pinball machines, cars, vibrators, beer, or whatever. Every owner/management/team takes the time to analyze and make improvements in every department. And yes, that applies to programming as well.

So if I don't "get it" , so be it!!!

-1
#245 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Projection. When one person here goes to bat for your take on this, you'll have some ammo against me. Until then...go away.

#246 3 years ago

Anyway, after all the BS has settled. Someone I DO know as reliable reached out me and relayed to me that the KISS code IS a priority and that Stern wants this out ASAP.

So I guess soon is the best we get for an answer.

#247 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Anyway, after all the BS has settled. Someone I DO know as reliable reached out me and relayed to me that the KISS code IS a priority and that Stern wants this out ASAP.
So I guess soon is the best we get for an answer.

Stay tuned

#248 3 years ago
Quoted from GodOfThunder:

Would it be better to hold off releasing or buying a Stern machine until all software is complete?

Yep.

Or at least 80% of the way there.

Absolutely.

As far as waiting to buy, yes as well. But the issue is scarcity. If you are an LE (or even a premium) you do risk losing out on a pin that 'someday' becomes great if you wait 1+ years to buy it NIB.

#249 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Ok, point taken.
However, when someone wants to take a couple of words and slant them to make a whole new meaning, they either are a politician or just an ignorant ass.
I don't claim to know about software development, nor do I care about Stern's "culture".
I just don't understand WTF the problem is with a customer making the point that they would like to see Stern put more emphasis on code.
That is all I did and a few want to twist my meaning, my words, and whatever.
Business is business, you produce pinball machines, cars, vibrators, beer, or whatever. Every owner/management/team takes the time to analyze and make improvements in every department. And yes, that applies to programming as well.
So if I don't "get it" , so be it!!!

Forums like this have a spectrum of people and have been living through the Stern saga for years.

The only reason to "care" about Stern's "culture" is to understand the context. When I first took the dive into pinball collecting in 2004, I was lucky to purchase LOTR and TSPP (2 of Stern's most awesome & complete games). As time past, the products cheapened and the software shipped with many issues.

After being a customer of Stern's products for 12 years now, they clearly "major in" pinball manufacturing and "minor in" pinball software. That means software innovation & completeness isn't a priority. That's why we don't have color dots. Fortunately, there are awesome 3rd party products that help push the ball forward (for example, ColorDMD just released a product for TRON

Ironically, even though Stern's software may not be bleeding edge and updates can be frustrating, they have still produced some of the best rulesets in all of pinball. When comparing Stern's with B/W machines, most people agree that Stern rulesets are deeper and more fun for serious players (particularly for home use). How/Why? Because Lyman Sheets is one of the best players and programmers in the business. From my perspective, he has had a huge hand in Stern's ability to produce some awesome machines.

To summarize, building pinball machines isn't like building any "widget" as you imply above. It's art, it's tech, it's handmade, and it's being done by a fairly small group of people. Understanding the context, culture, and people involved are part of the fun! It's a very tough business to make a living in, and Stern is one of the few companies that has figured out how to do it!

#250 3 years ago
Quoted from GodOfThunder:

There is more whine in this thread than Ace drank on the entire Dynasty tour in 1979!

Ack! Where's the update Curley....

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