I think your post supports an earlier point I made. Either the game is fun or not and gadgets and toys do not by themselves help the cause in the long run.

I know that several of the people that posted on this thread including you, Newsom, Bowen, etc. are very good tourney players . Certainly the competitive community is more concerned about the overall gameplay than anything. Your comment on ACDC supports that. Nothing overly innovative per se, but Lyman's rules are appealing in this game.

You mentioned Stewie pinball from FGY. In competitions, that device is utilized as little as possible (on a fixed timer) to keep top players from camping out on it. So the factory intent of the toy is removed from the equation.

The ship in POTC is a great device in my opinion, but I have heard competitive players gripe about this game being used. (I recall when Keith Elwin scored something like 400MIL on ball one at EXPO in 2006-just WOW)

I like the crane in BDK (3rd wave is crazy and setting up the stack of crane with Bat Signal Multiball is fun), but this does not seem to be an overly popular game either.

Toys are, for the most part, just front end candy. It still takes the whole pinball package to be a great game.

Hell yeah.

When it first came out, guys were setting it to Instant (death) along with only 1 letter per shot, which did take it out of the equation for the most part. Since then, most tournaments are using sudden death+ timer now, which brings it back into play. Still, plenty of guys will time out modes to get to TV wiz mode. But, because of the layout and huge stacking potential, it's still an awesome tournament game IMO.

Lots more Stern games being used at PAPA and other tournaments now. You couldn't say that for a lot of years. Will be interesting to see how OZ fits into the tourney picture.

Because they are newer and more dependable than a lot of the older games. Nothing worse than a game going down mid game in a tournament.

LTG : )

Toys are front-end candy, but this is the candy that brings new players to pinball. For AC/DC, the theme and music is the toy that brings new players. I enjoy innovation in software and playfield design, but innovation in hardware, art, and theme is what can bring new players into pinball.

A lot of the best games have clear, simple toys for new players (World Cup's goal, AFM's saucer, MM's castle). That's not enough for the game to be good -- Mick Jagger -- but I don't think a game can really be a top seller and earner without those hooks.

For Pin2K and WOO (it's called Wizard Of Oz, not Wizard of Z) the design is the hook. Long-term it will be interesting to see how a game with an LCD earns compared to a game with a DMD. That drove a lot of sales when DMDs first started to appear, and maybe it will happen again. Hardware, art, theme all bring players to the game, then software and design keep them there.

No doubt! A couple years ago at PAPA I had CV lit up like Chinese New Year. I was putting up a monster score and had just activated a MB with all sorts of other stuff ready to burst...when the game just wigged out. It totally starting geeking and then tilt, may have even reset, without me doing a damn thing. I complained but what were they going to do? I seem to recall it was eventually turned off during tournament play. freaking B/W!

just so you know, it's not just B/W that were the innovators. DE was the first one to release a DMD game.

I am very curious on how WOZ will do on location as well. The LCD with the attract animations are really cool in person. The game just seems so complex when you walk up to it however. There is so much going on. Between the crystal ball, two playfields, spinning house, etc., it is a bit over-whelming.

Well, yes, I was only referring to XM LE, because those were the ONLY XM games at PAPA this year.

And XM was brought into this discussion because Newsom said he didn't even want to walk over and try it at PAPA, and also because he saw that it had a similar disc to Twister and assumed it did the same thing (and it's utilized far differently in game play, but you have to play it to know that). And then when I mentioned the new innovation in lighting effects, he didn't know what I was talking about. So basically, he's complaining about innovation, I point some out, but he wasn't aware of it, because he didn't want to walk over and try it. LOL The whole exchange and counterpoint just seemed really silly and weird to me.

Dead on. Add a game like Champion Pub into it. Girls in particular have always loved to play CP at my house. It's so painfully obvious what to do, that's why. Nobody wants to sit and read instructions before they play, they just want to play! Hit the heavy bag. Hit the boxer, knock him out with pinballs. There has to be more to the game to bring back the better players, and that's when you know you have an excellent machine (TAF, MM, AFM, etc). But it's that one incredibly alluring toy and feature that you don't have to think or read about to understand how to work it.

First of all, give up on WOO. I tried 20-30 times to make that point almost two years ago, and nobody wanted to hear of it, even Jack on the JJP forums. Once they got that WOZ in their head, that's all they wanted to hear. WOZ. Yeah, WOO is technically correct, but maybe one other person stood with me back then in those original debate threads. WOZ won in a landslide, don't even open up that can of worms bc you'll just get frustrated LOL.

Most hardcore players echo the sentiment of "I'm fine with a DMD, I hate the big WOZ LCD!" and the same arguments of "I don't need to look at that while I'm playing" and "It's more distracting than anything" but the point they all miss is that it's not for them. And this touches on one of the P2k design flaws. One of the things which attracts others to pinball is being able to follow what's happening when someone else is playing, so they say to themselves "Ok, cool! I want to be next, that looks fun!" It's like a giant attract screen for others to see, follow, and draw them into being the next to step up and put a quarter in. That's what the big spinning house is for, the flying monkey, the crystal ball (if they fix the screen), and the witch, in addition to the LCD. It's about bringing in new players, so someone else can see the little world come to life, and follow the gameplay, and be hooked just walking by. It's like when people first saw Rudy, or saw Thing grab the ball. They wanted to be next for that. P2k was more like this: walk by and see these beetle like people hunkered over some dark video game thing, "what's going on? I don't know, aliens on a screen... can't tell. Going to try something else... like Slay Kenny or flush some balls down the toilet."

There's a delicate balance between making hardcore players happy, and yet innovating enough changes to draw in new players. WOZ looks to me to be a step in the right direction, and may achieve that balance, esp with KEF creating a wonderfully balanced ruleset for the hardcore player, at least that's what we hope/expect.

I don't blame him a bit for not wanting to waste his time at PAPA with the early code for Xmen.
Everybody knew it was bad, and as a good player, you want to get into a game (deep), not be disappointed that it is so unrefined.
As far as the amazing light show, I played last weekend at a tourney(wolverine), and didn't see anything overly special. ACDC has more from what I noticed.
But maybe I was just busy looking for big jackpots that don't seem to be there.
Not sure of this new use of the Spinmag either, seems like twister alot, even MB start.
At least Twister had a really cool skill shot at it, when it was working right.

That wasn't the point. He was criticizing the game as having no innovation, and when I pointed one out (the rgb relays which change the entire playfield's color on the fly) he wasn't aware of it. Because he hadn't bothered to try it. That's the point. Complain about something you haven't tried, and bitch about things which are there, but you don't know about them, because you wouldn't try it.

ACDC's playfield lighting effects are very similar, and those two games are the first to exhibit that innovation. Is it earth-shatteringly innovative and a game-changer? No. But it's very cool, and it's new. That's the point.

The multiball start is similar, but the use of the magnet during normal gameplay is infinitely different, as it hurls it back at you every time you hit either of the two standup Magneto targets. So there's a risk/reward. You have to hit the targets in order to light locks, but you also risk having the ball flung back at you at a blistering pace, SDTM, onto a sling, a misflip trying to catch a fastball, etc.

My only beef is players criticizing something they haven't tried. Makes utterly no sense to me.

Just a nitpick here, but if I remember it right the X-Men code at PAPA was updated at the beginning of the first day, and was running the newer not-terrible code with the Wolverine multiball, etc. Not the original shipping code with the non-scoring multiballs and such.

what? for verification? Just wait, there will be pictures of more than 52 games soon enough...

Like I said... it's not significantly shorter than a standard playfield. You can argue till the cows come home. WPC is 20.5"x46" P2K is 20.5"x43". There's a three-inch-difference. Which could have easily been made up with different design changes if necessary. The playfield is not in any way significantly smaller.

However, if to you 3" is a "huge difference" then, well, I'm not going to argue. Maybe 3" is a big deal to you. Sorry. 3" is not "significant" to me. But I respect you and I have different perspectives. So be it.

Yeah, I agreed that it's not by a lot. But I'd argue that P2k should've been 3" longer, actually, to make up for the vide screen and stubby cabinet making the whole experience feel shorter and more confining. Also, Pinball is a game of micro-inches. You change the distance between the flippers just a mm, and players feel it. Lower an outlane post 3mm and it's a drain monster, move it up and it's not. You move a ramp back a half " and the shot feels bad, and you move it forward and it feels good. Making P2k a longer playfield would've helped immensely, IMHO.

By the way, this wasn't the designer's fault or choice. They were bummed about the playfield being cut short. It was a management decision, as a cost-saving measure, and I believe because they did the math and in order to fit the same amount of P2k games in a single container to Europe that they'd been used to with WPC, the cut had to be made. I can't remember if it was Gomez or who said it, but I remember it in a Expo speech or interview. Might've been Jpop or Cameron. I forget.

Hey, we're all passionate about it, and I love discussing it with people who have different views.

LOL, That's what she said....

Hey guys!! Whats all this bitching about P2k? I love that system, just wish I could find one cheap.

I can only recall what used to reach for my money to play a game: I need to see something that interests me. That could be in the artwork (which eliminates every Sega / stern game instantly), or in the design. The Rudy head was a good trigger. You just want to hit that with the ball. When playing the game I just wanted to complete the mirror. I kept trying: so that's an objective which is simple to understand and hard to achieve. A wizard mode does not fall into this category for me.
The ramps on CFTBL were also a trigger. I was like: how can I get the ball up there? Then to discover that the most notable ramp can only be shot during multiball made it even more interesting.
BOP: simple objective: get all 4 faces. Technically innovative and yet simple to understand.

I think we're almost at a point where there is a need for innovations that are this easy to understand, yet not that easy for an average player to complete. No wonder pinball declined over the past decade since multiball, for certain players something to try to achieve, has been given away so easy. It woudl probaly be innovative now to simply remove the ball saver and make getting multiball an (easy to understand but hard to achieve) challenge. Add some eye candy and such a game should interest more people.

Newsom dude, honestly I can't keep up with what you played, when, how and sort of don't care at this point. You had played XM but still didn't notice that the magnet/disc was different than Twister during gameplay, and you didn't notice any lighting innovations. I mean, you're a PAPA player and you didn't recognize these things after several plays? Really? I had people come over and only watch only a couple of games on mine, who aren't serious players, and they noticed those things immediately, especially the lighting changes.

And I still think it's absurd that you wouldn't even walk over and look at a new machine. Everyone else I spoke to in the entire building over the course of the wknd at least looked at or played the two Magnetos at least once. Seems like you had it out for the game based on what you read online. Next time do less reading on the forums and more playing in person. Then you'll better know what you're talking about at least. Honestly, I tire of your complaints and making every post about you and your experience (lack of) on XM.

Where's that "arguing on the Internet" picture when you need it...

To add my own experiences, I have played many games of XM but have not noticed any lighting innovations -- and didn't you say they were the same types of effects already being done in AC/DC? I don't know, I feel more impressed by the lighting on Tron (especially Tron LE) than XM.

I also agree about the magnet / disc: it strikes me as the same overall thing we've seen since Iron Man. Hit something, magnet / disc slaps the ball around, hooray -- that's not infinitely different, that's the fourth Stern game in 3 years to feature such behavior. As a competitive player I am not a fan of these features, but they are clearly a good way of getting casual players' interest. The magnet / disc on XM does not strike me as a major innovation. Maybe it is. But I guess that makes me a PAPA player who didn't recognize these things as innovative after several plays. Mostly I noticed the giant metal ramp that decides to swing out and block everything. The most innovative thing to me is the Villian rules with smart ideas about health bars and victory, but that's not going to bring new players to the game. New players will play so they can beat on Wolverine and hit green targets that pretend like they're Magneto.

And I don't think it's absurd to skip a specific machine. PAPA is busy. I was dragged over to XM twice by others and did not finish a game of it. I didn't have a preconceived notion of the game, I just wasn't drawn by it and there were many other people and things more important.

Honestly, I tire of people complaining about how tired they are of being tired of other people's complaining! WOO.

Pardon my grammar, I am fighting a bad case of the FLU and at work at the same time!

So do people want their PIN to become a computer? Personally I think too much innovation will take away the "classic play" feeling. Computerize the inner workings, LCD screens, etc.( Well I love the WOZ LCD Screen, so I shouldn't talk!) UCK...If you ask me, they need to draw the line between PIN and computer. Heck, why not come up with a box with buttons on the side, that simulate the flipper buttons and hook it up to your Xbox? LOL If you ask me, I like the "classic" pin feeling. Take that away, sure you will have a "new generation" of fans, but at the same time, you will be playing a glorified XBox!

lol, try again. Pinball machines have been 'computers' since the late 1970s.

You could also say that about a calculator! LOL...That is not what I meant, I meant becoming like an Xbox.

Why not come out and say you just dont like Stern anymore? LOL j/k

What about tunnels in a pinball? Shot's that go under the playfield that are equivalent to ramps. I'm not sure I've ever seen that. Or more complex crazy tripple quadruple ramps. Obviously you have a bit of a gravity issue there but they could figure something out. What about a pinball that goes vertical into the backbox, like an ice cold beer type of thing? Or, they could do muliple upper playfields in clear layers that use projection to make them appear solid when you're on that playfield level. They could do pinballs with unique characteristics so that you have to hit the green ball up the green ramp and the red ball into the red lock.

They've done this for years, they're called subway ramps....

I like some of your other ideas, though. The colored balls for specific shots would be cool....

All I can say is "Wow!" It's literally the first thing casual people who don't even follow pinball noticed. It's painfully obvious. The **entire playfield** going BLUE, then WHITE, then PURPLE, then RED... really? It's most dramatic when you initially select your Villian. But my god is it obvious...

Yes, I believe the code update that was actually put on the ACDC at PAPA that weekend did it for ACDC, which already had the same relay/rgb system in place. Like I said, it's not earth-shattering, but it's pretty darn cool innovation that every person I've played the game with in person has noticed and commented on, every single one.

Well, there's a positive at least!

Yeah, in order to criticize a game you need to have played it enough to have experienced the features you're criticizing, right? And it should be obvious that it's the LE model which needs to be played, if it's innovation you're after, since it's well known that the Pro model is missing features, assemblies and components. Please don't play a Pro model and then go "Where's the innovation?" The answer is it's on the other machine, called the LE, which used to be just called the standard machine.

If you're against the Pro/LE model, then join the club, but it's here to stay for the time being and what Stern needed to stay afloat and appease locations and home collectors. I don't like it either, but it is what it is.

Praying that you work from home...?

Don't think (W)izard (O)f (O)z think (W)izard of (OZ). Woo is courtship. WOZ is cool.

Getting back on point... in the heyday of pinball, designers were constantly trying to out-do each other on each subsequent title. Everyone was looking to introduce new playfield mechanics, toys, rulesets that nobody else had seen before.

You could argue that once it became the standard to license other peoples' property to put on a machine, designers let that be the main selling point, rather than the uniqueness of the game itself. Perhaps as long as designers rely on someone else's established brand to sell games for them, we won't really see any major innovation?

Even on Pinside, the majority of the conversation about new games relates more to theme than anything else. People are buying Avengers and Hobbit mainly because they're fans of the already-established brand. Where's the motivation for manufacturers to innovate when people mostly make their decisions based on what's silk-screened on the cabinet?

I played a Wolverine LE on two different occasions, and the light show was not "painfully obvious" to me.

I played it for the first time at a friend's house. I immediately noticed the moving ramp, the oversized Wolverine, the spinning disc, etc, but the lighting was not nearly as obvious as the ACDC light show. Maybe it had to do with the color choices, but it wasn't immediately obvious to me.

The second time was the Houston Arcade & Pinball Expo. XMLE was a tournament pin. I was able to watch many games. After a full day and a half of watching and playing games, I started to notice that villains triggered different color displays. I pointed out the light changes to other tournament players who had also failed to recognize the light show.

Once we noticed the light show, it was easier to notice it during gameplay. But when compared to ACDC, it is not nearly as dramatic or obvious in my opinion.

Marcus

No subways in Stern games....hence the whole point of this thread.

I had no idea. I don't dig the newer Stern games...

Oh... On second thought, AC/DC Premium is pretty kick azz... Played a few games on it. Real fun....

The point of the thread is that innovation in pinball has slowed to a trickle, so tamoore's point is valid (subways aren't innovative). However I can see how it can get confusing, the thread has degenerated into the usual Stern bash fest.

Anyone ever hear of "necessity is the mother of invention"? More innovation happened in the 60s to 90s because it was the era of arcades. There were multiple manufacturers competing for the same dollars. It was necessary to innovate to stay competitive.

Comparing the "60's to 90s" era to "2000 to 2012" is comparing apples to oranges and unreasonable imo.

I know of a bunch of titles that have subway ramps where you hit a shot, the ball drops, goes through the subway, and then is ejected back onto the playfield with a VUK. I was thinking more like a tunnel that acts more like a ramp, where you hit the tunnel and the momentum of the ball carries it down below the playfield and then back up. I don't think I've ever seen that (although I'm not saying it hasn't been done).

The only thing is that if you had a weak shot that didn't carry the ball through the tunnel there would need to be a way to get it back up onto the playfield. Like a VUK that only comes into play if you fail your tunnel shot.

That would be cool, and doable!

I think I'd miss watching the ball, though. Watching the ball do cool stuff is one of the reasons I like pinball like I do..

I'm thinking it would be like the outer lanes at the top of playfields where you lose sight of the ball for a second but it comes back around. Or, you could have a whole subteranian playfield that's veiwable on the HD LED screen on the backbox. That might be cool tool. You could do some stuff with flow between the subteranian and the playfield and the upper playfield.

See? That's innovation....

Because so many games were being built, it allowed companies to take more chances. Over 100,000 games were built in 1992 alone. 100,000+. Stern hopes to build 5000 this year. Multiply 5000 times whatever you think the average selling price of a game is now and you'll see why they can't afford to take chances. They're a very small company. They financially can't afford to take big chances. They tried something completely different with WOF and look how that turned out.

JJP offers competition, but until the scale gets above 50k units a year, I don't see either company taking any big chances. True innovation won't happen without volume. All other considerations pale in comparison. You want innovation? Play on location more often. Playing alone in your basement doesn't help.

The nearest "play on location" near me that has anything other than a busted 2008 IJ is the international airport. I would have to buy a plane ticket and go through security to play many of them. Not everyone has the convenience of a good selection of machines anywhere nearby. I would argue that "playing alone in your basement" helps out a lot more than not playing at all.

As far as the scale getting up to 50k units a year, with the majority of them being on location, I think it is a pipe dream at this point. Way too many entertainment options for young and old, with pinball being very niche.

Then put your own games on location. That's what I did. If you don't have any games, tell business owners that you would spend more money in their business if they had pins. Business owners like to hear how they can make more money.

I would agree, but I'll still try to help the the hobby however I can. Plenty of good still in the hobby.

In my book, because the original poster operates games and regularly plays on location, he has a right to bitch. Those that rarely play on location aren't helping the hobby. They have no right to bitch about innovation IMO. They are the reason why pinball doesn't innovate. Home sales alone will never go over 10k games a year. You're not going to get innovation and a reasonable price at that level.

I guess I'll have to side with Pinballcorpse and others: most important thing as an avid pinball player is just the sheer thrill and enjoyment of a game. Innovation is cool, but "just one more" playability is better.

And I do think we're on the cusp of step-wise innovation (not incremental) --- I'm pinning my hopes to Multimorphic's P3.

That also works the other way around: volume won't happen without innovation. We've seen that the past decade. 50K units is still possible: come up with a simple, fun, addictive game design, reliable hardware, some decent marketing and price such game around 3K or less. Ops will put it on location as soon as it proves to earn.

3K? You can't be serious. Building small runs of games costs more, not less. Expecting innovation at 3k a pop is ridiculous.

How often do you play on location? Do you operate any games? Besides your magazine, how else do you support the hobby? You come off here as a shallow casual player. You seem very big on themes, yet speak very little about actual gameplay. Please elaborate on why we should value your opinion. When you suggest games should sell for 3k each AND be innovative, you lose credibility IMO. That ain't gonna happen.

The opinion that only operators and location players have the right to bitch about innovation is asinine. Anyone that spends their luxury dollar on a product has every right to bitch about innovation. The operator paid money to buy the machine. The location player paid money to play the machine. The home buyer paid money to buy the machine. Of the three, why is it that the home buyer is the only one that does not have the right to bitch?

One home buyer who spends $4,500 - $7,000 to buy a NIB pinball machine has just as much right to complain about innovation as the location player who spends $20 a week (or $1,040 a year).

Marcus

The whole 3K price point is interesting.Is pinball pricing itself out of existence now that a full featured game costs 8K?
Woz 7,500
The Hobbit 8K
Avengers Le 8K

Talk about killing the route!!!How many, if any ops, are gonna take an 8K gamble on old ass,non innovative pinball machines that break and don't earn.Avengers isn't gonna move the meter,especially since it's nothing new.The game could have been released in '95 from the looks of it.WOZ and The Hobbit have LCD screens.Is it enough?Don't give me color changing LED's as a game changer either.

Once again Pin 2K was the last big move.I remember seeing/playing it and saying this is the future for pinball.Now I come on here and talk about software updates.Scott

If they don't play on location regularly, they're helping to make the hobby smaller. If you're shrinking the hobby, why should you expect innovation?

The home buyers can complain all they want about QA or bad themes. But when you start complaining about innovation or recycled rules, that's just wrong. You're the one making the hobby smaller. Take a look in the mirror if you want to know who to blame.