I was thinking a similar thing the other night and was going to make a post about it but I figured it probably had been talked about.

As much as I love pinball, to me the pinball machine is kind of limited as far as what a silver ball can do in cabinet dimensions that for the most part are all the same size now. And the innovative ones like joust, pinball circus, safe cracker, banzai, etc. had limited production.

Maybe people have settled into a pinball style that they're comfortable with and don't want to stray too far from?

But Yeah I definitely agree there aren't many cool new innovations from Stern lately.

Amen to that

Well cabinet styling and monitor systems aside...

You do realize there is only SO MANY different thing one human or any human can do in a 6ft sq area.. dont you...

cant go up too much, cant go down too much, and you really cant go back at all...

wide bodys give you a bit more latitude for sure, but are we gonna have to get to the size of that big goofy game that is at expo every year..Hercules, to have enough cool shit in there to make everyone happy...

You really gotta give these designers some latitude and credit here...

I would like to see all of the armchair designers here on Pinside or RGP, do a better job !

there are only so many combinations of stuff to fit in that area as well...

I mean do the math... !

yeah...basically your entire post is either old wives tales like this or tired retread of stuff people have said x1000. we get it, dmd tech isn't new. and you "heard" x-men wasn't good. startling insight there.

OP i have to agree with you. I'll keep this short cuz its too late to properly respond but im not sure i like the idea of LED displays. TV's today are crap, your lucky to get 5 years out of them before they crap ou it seems.

And to those that say, "you know, there's only so much you can do in the given space"' those are the dream killer people, the people with a very small imagination, the type of people who will never be responsible for inovation. So tired of hearing that..., there is no "mountain top".

And damn your right, that was a long rant, very true though.

if there is no innovation, then software companies will see that, make innovation for pinball on a smartphone! or Xbox! You could do anything you want, not worry about space, etc. Right? That would be terrible for the pin industry!

I did a search on my iphone for pinball apps. New ones popping up left and right! YUCK!

I've often thought about what the OP has stated.

I don't think a company like Stern can afford, at this point, to be dinking around with innovation. Innovation is expensive and risky, and it seems like they currently have all they can do to crank out their 2 new pins a year following the standard tried and true pinball format.

I think we're seeing already that Jpop and the other boutique pin designers and businesses are more easily able to innovate in order to take it to the next level.

And as to the idea that the new Stern machines aren't up to B/W standards in regards to feel and quality from 20 years ago - this is absolutely true to me. They look and feel 'cheaper' in my hands.

I only have one comment here.

The stern SAM sound is at least as good as DCS. Comparing it to system 11? Once you put a sub in, the sound has been fantastic in recent stern games. A sub in a pre DCS game it barely helps. The sound sample quality in current stern Sam games is sampled high.

Newsom, thanks for your post. It reflects what many others feel. That relative lack of innovation was not so bad for me: I stayed away from Pins for nearly a decade. It was good to be back and find some constancy... I instantly felt at home.

As some mention, there is a limited number of toys you may fit on a PF. Still, there are changes that can be made. The first one in a screen on the playfield (as in P3, Nemo, and probably full Throttle). Trouble with the DMD is that you do not see it much during play. I assume regular DMD will go, and at least be replaced by colour ones.

I am surprised that Banzai Run was the only pin with a real playfield in the cabinet. If you insert the screen on the regular PF, then you have a full cabinet available for that. I swear this vertical PF is playable and enjoyable.

An easy innovation would be that a third or fourth flipper that would be deactivated until you achieve some goal.

But to me a real way for innovation would be "open source" rules allowing players to participate in the adventure.

Todays games: out on the market with incomplete code, confusing and sometimes imcomplete rulesets, unappealing photo shop and decal art, sound systems that really "need to be upgraded" to be considered "good", cheap toys or as most so adequately describe as "gadgets" that must continually be replaced, dmd's that so far as I can tell only serve to distract the player from whats really the essense of pinball....the playfield action, neon tubes behind plastic backglasses, and finally THREE different versions of ONE game which really equates to you having to purchase the most expensive version to experience the total package. I'm not sure this can be viewed as progress, really appears that with the addition of these so-called innovations in pinball have merely paralelled its slow decline over the years. The 80's and very early 90's was in IMHO the heyday of pinball for a reason, rulesets were reasonable enough that you didn't HAVE TO BUY ONE FOR YOUR HOME in order to learn or achieve it all, art packages were were attractive yet didn't require you to look up at a screen during play, and believe it or not the game came COMPLETE you didn't have to play three versions to appreciate the essense of the game........yeah things have changed.

I think the OP perfectly sums up why we need competition. Being it between design teams trying to come up with the most creative ideas and put these into their games, or even competition between several factories.

The innovation is there, but maybe not at Stern - for whatever reason. The Multimorphic game is showing innovation. I found the Predator game, which I palyed at Expo, also very innovative when it comes to creative rules. Heck, even Whoa Nellie Big Juicy Melons is innovative as it brought back a fun factor that has been missing from pinball for too long.

If people really think there's no way to innovate or change things in a 6 sq ft area, then we'd never have smartphones. If everyone told steve jobs "there's no way your cramming that much computing power and memory in a phone that small and thin", and he listened because apple needs to be safe because they only have 10% of the market share we'd never have a smartphone.

There's lots that can be done in pinball (and yes I have ideas). Will I go work for Stern? No. Stern won't take those risks, and I know those engineers work 80 hour weeks, for what? To put out sub-par pinball? I feel sorry for them. They're like football players with anchors chained to their legs.

Stern plays it safe. It kept them alive while other companies fell.

Now that a bit of a resurgence of pinball is here and new companies are doing stuff, safe feels stale. Tron and AC/DC were home runs, but I'm feeling like the fire is out. Wasn't X-Men supposed to be the last pin with a traditional DMD?

Excellent editorial Newsom and I agree with your analysis of recent history of pinball.
Stern has taken more out of pinball machines,by their own admission, than they have put in.

This is the exact reason why I support JPop. He is going to change pinball for good. I was blown away when I visited him in Chicago. Yea there is some risk but im willing to bet on a guy with this passion for pinball second to nobody.

Stern has keept pinball alive from going the safe rt. I don't blame them. I think they do lack a bit in game design with using the same "tricks" over and over. New design does not have to cost a boat load of money only a boat load of thinking. If they went in that direction they would not be pumping out 3 pins in a year. Yes they gave us TRON and AC/DC so why even complain. Stern is constant and puts out pins. That may change with new comp in the market.

Yeah, I'm going to give this post a big FAIL. In a nutshell, 2008 called and wants its rant back!

This is the kind of post all of us were making a few years ago on RGP, back when it was applicable and not an out of date rehash. Innovation is finally creeping back into pinball and this is the post you make? You ask, where's the innovation in pinball? I ask, are your eyes open?

JJP is updating the display and putting more coils and features on a playfield than we've seen in forever. A new system, completely redesigned. Wireless. Lighting like we've all dreamed of. And (we're all hoping) a return to those TSPP/LOTR rulesets that many have missed for the past 6 years since Keith left pinball. (And now you make this post?)

There's a lot of false generalizations in your post as well.

Here's what this reads like to me: "Flippers were fun back in the 40's when Humpty Dumpty first did it. YAWN! Another game with Flippers!" Guess what? If something is fun, it's fun. XM's disc/magnet is so much more interactive than the Twister one it's silly. And it's the perfect toy for the theme, hello? Magneto? The disc interacts less with the ball than the magnet which hurls a screaming ball back at you every time you hit a target, challenging your tense reaction time every time you hit or misshit.

Oh, and how about XM's entire playfield's lighting changing with a single flip? The lighting effects are new and innovative, but guess what? You'd have to walk over and play it to see that. I guess you spent your time at PAPA playing Taxi and grumbling about the pictures you saw of XM online where you formed your opinion? XM's art and lighting are huge steps in the right direction towards making new games feel like new games (something they really didn't just a couple years before with TF and IM, enjoyable games but not truly innovative). You are too narrow minded to see beyond a disc/magnet toy, which by the way is incredibly fun and cool. You don't have to blow innovation out of the water on every single assembly, you have to bring innovation in slowly while keeping familiar things in the machine which players recognize and have fun with. That's what XM seems like to me.

And with the boutiques springing up left and right? Many innovating their own ways for adding video to the fields, and new ideas for rules and system lighting.

With Stern just unveiling a playfield layout that's more unique than any in years (most of us can't even follow how the ball will interact with things yet, from the pics), and once again I ask, you choose NOW to make this rambling babble?

Sorry, like I said, wake up and open your eyes. Walk over and play the machines; don't just form an opinion from behind your computer.

There's a splattering of a decent point here and there in your post, but for the most part it's a negative blinders-on post which reads like it was pulled out of 2008, when no innovation was creeping back into pinball at all. But now it is. Embrace it. Walk over and play it, experience it, and you might feel differently.

And be positive about the innovative ideas and systems which are nearly on our doorsteps and quit worrying about how fun f'n Taxi used to be. Taxi is cool, I love it. Go play it. But go play the new stuff too, and have an open mind. And just because you saw a toy before, doesn't mean it's the same thing, and certainly doesn't mean it isn't more fun. Just because you create magna-flippers on a Lexan playfield with video shooting into your eyes, rotating upside down in a gravitron chamber doesn't mean it would be a fun pinball machine, but it'd definitely be innovative enough for you I'd guess. You have to have a balance.

Fun is at the heart of pinball, and innovation (while on life support for many years) is coming back. Change is imminent. But you won't be able to experience from staring at your computer screen. You'll need your fingers on the flippers for that. Walk over and try it.

angry much mechslave?

Pinball is more popular now than it has been for over 10 years.

Well, I guess you would have to define the terms of 'getting the job done'.

If getting the job done means taking huge risks, innovating (like P2K, that worked out for a company) and shaking up the pinball world, well, no, Stern did not do that.

If getting the job done means keeping pinball alive for the past decade, when no other company would do it, and without Stern realizing that all these new companies would not be around, then yah, they did get the job done.

Why not direct the criticism to Williams? Did they not drop the ball? Perhaps if they stuck around, Stern would have had to innovate to stay alive?

Except the whole, you know, make pinball machines for you to play.

Actually, Pinball Magazine published a chart showing how successful P2K was compared to other titles. RFM outsold all 25 games prior to it (dating back to 1994), SW:E1 also sold more units than most recent pins prior to that.

Those buggy whip companies are making a come back as well.

You are not looking? I think there is more pin on location now than there has been for years. My city has gone from 0 to 2 locations in the past year. Anecdotal data for sure.

So, basically your darling pinball company dropped the ball, and did not innovate. Heck, they have not produced a machine in years!

Your rant is misplaced. One company has been producing pinball machines. No one else has. You should be thankful for Stern. Only if you like pinball that is.

And didn't South Park out earn both of them for a smaller investment?

I think the formula is the same decade after decade.

Sucessful games grab you and say play me! play me! play me! They taunt you: Come on-all you gotta do is...

It is not necessarily the use of a LCD screen, 42 zillion LED lighting combinations or fancy magnet tricks or a "hey wow" toys in the game. All great games over the past several decades have a great package experience requiring several ingredients. Art, theme, sound, lights and rules. The rule ingredient is a recent must-have for collectors and I think we have Keith and Lyman to thank for that. But still, it is the combination of everything working in harmony.

It is 100% true that we can dissect recent popular games like AC/DC, Iron Man and TRON and say it is like this or that layout etc., but these games GRAB YOU and beg you to try one more time. In fact games that are decades old still grab players and collectors. Games from previous decades like AFM, MM, TAF, TZ, CV, FH, Centaur, Paragon, Joker Poker, Fast Draw, SweetHearts, KOD all have a repeat draw to them and are consistently high ranked. It is not because their technology is so advanced. The game begs to be played.

Will a game like WOZ do that for the pinball community? Maybe, time will tell. A game like RFM was very innovative but I feel the game simply does not perpetually beg to be played and is not sought after. After owning it a while, people often let it go. It cannot be argued that the technology is ancient, because we are still amused by watching Rudy scream in FH, the MM castle explode, AFM Saucer blow up, Martians jiggling or watching the Thing hand and lightning effects on TAF while the sounds and lights lead to SHOWTIME. The games are fun. Making solenoids move back and forth and lights flash is not that innovative, but we clearly enjoy what we see.

We are liking recent games like AC/DC and TRON and IM because of how the make us feel when we play it. But they are still pretty basic pinball machines with no massive innovation, but they are fun to play which is what we want out of pinball.

More gadgets and gizmos and high tech is not going to make a game better. It is either fun or it is not. You cannot simply innovate fun.

I suppose it's the timing of this rant, asking where is the innovation, that's so troubling. Like I said, a few years ago when it was just Stern, and the machines looked and played exactly like last year's, with no changes in sight, I could see a post like this one. And it seriously reads like a cut-n-paste of so many RGP posts from that time.

But have you seen all the new tiny pinball companies? Have you seen WOZ and the changes being made? And the Stern innovations in playfield lighting, art and design? Granted Stern's changes come slower than the rest, but Gary isn't a gambler; he's a businessman.

It just seems the most odd time imaginable to make a rant like this, when innovation is imminent, to ask where it is? You're on the cusp of more than we've seen in over a decade. And the games are FUN, with touches of innovation finally creeping back in...

Yup. Thank Gary for keeping the fire stoked which has allowed this renaissance. Gary has the most to lose, so will take the least risk. Smaller more nimble outfits will try new things, that is how the world works.

I thought we'd be using hoverballs by now.

True. I thought I'd be able to temporarily shrink down inside the pinballs and experience the game from inside the glass, in HISTK size. Damn these pinball designers, where's that at? We are still flipping a metal ball around in 2012?? 'Oh the humanity!'

I think you're expecting way too much out of Stern. I play on location a lot. I don't see any problem with the games. Sure, XM doesn't appeal much to us regular players, but it's got plenty of appeal to casual players. To me, it's becoming pretty clear that location play is done for the most part. The hobby is adding new new enthusiasts at an alarming rate. More and bigger shows are being added to the calendar every year. Tournament play is also growing at double digit rates. This place is blowing up. Prices are going up (new and used). Yet location play still suffers. For around 70 years pinball was a social activity in this country. Not any more. It's become something you do by yourself at home. Sure, the noobs will go to one or two shows a year. They may even join a league. But for whatever reasons, they won't play on location regularly. To me, it's extremely disappointing. People are missing the best part of the hobby.

Blaming it all on Stern is shortsighted. It's partly a change in culture. People are less social than they used to be. Kids will text each other when they're standing right next to each other. People think nothing about shutting out the world by jamming headphones in their ears and walking around in public. Many people here on this site obviously don't don't socialize much in the pinball hobby other than here. You can tell.

With the move into the home, the emphasis on gameplay has been lost. Now it's all about pimping the game. Who cares how it plays as long as looks good? Look through the main page here. How many threads discuss gameplay and how many discuss pimping? It's gotten way out of proportion. Instead of 'It's more fun to compete!', they should change it to 'It's more fun to pimp!'.

No, I think Stern has done more than their share. Short of building a device that pulls people out of their basement into the location, I'm not sure there's much more they can do.

Lastly, you say 'From the late eighties (when I started playing a good amount of pin) to the late nineties most Williams and B/W games brought something new and fun to the table.'. You also have a very large collection that includes only one Stern. Would it be fair to say you're a WMS snob? Many of my friends are admitted WMS snobs. They grew up on those pins, so it's understandable. It's perfectly okay to be a WMS snob, but it's not fair to blame Stern for location play's slow demise. It's not the game's fault. It's the people.

Basically, you don't like Stern.

Pinball software needs to go open source. Easy customable. Like in games.

Would eliminate alot of software problems. And you can play different mods, this way a pin can last much longer, cause gameplay can change often.

Cant believe this is still not the case in pinball.

Very unlikely. For the following reasons:
RFM: 6,878 units sold,
SW:E1: 3,525 units sold,
SP: 2,800 units sold at most (2,200 + 220 or 600)
So first of all less units were built.
Second: it seems vey unlikely that these 2,800 units of SP would have earned more than 6,878 RFM's.
If you're talking about the income of specific about income on specific locations (which still is something totally different than the point I was trying to make) then depending on the location and how the game was maintained it could be that SP would make more money than an RFM. But how long did that last? I haven't seen a SP being routed for years. RFM and SW:E1 I see still on locations. So in the long run, and generally speaking, SP was not the best investment compared to those 2 games.

Totally wrong.

When the whole P2k/SP subject comes up, it's very easy to tell who played and followed pinball during that period and who is just looking back through IPDB trying to figure it all out with production numbers.

SP smoked RFM in terms of Return on Investment. SP was cheaper and earned like a champ, and they had to go back to the line to build more, because they were sold out and distributors needed more to meet demand.

RFM was mostly presold, based on a *ton* of hype (similar to TZ) and then flopped when it hit locations. Many pinheads were initially enthused by it, because let's face it... P2k is pretty damn cool when you first see it. But P2k doesn't keep the quarters coming in, and they were puked back out at auction within the year. I was at the auctions, I saw it. Half-priced at auctions within a year. SWE1 actually outearned RFM, and even that didn't dethrone SP. SP is probably the best rated earner of that whole era, for several years before it and after it. SP was the Playmeter Game of the Year in 1999 (the year of P2k!).

Reading IPDB, and looking at production numbers, all these years later does not tell the story of P2k vs SP. Neither does watching TILT. You had to actually be there.

"The biggest death nail in the coffin of Pinball 2000 was farting kids and turds." -Duncan Brown, programmer for SWEP1

OH SNAP

I have to say I didn't notice much about X-Men's art or lighting, other than the LED for the Blackbird flashing through the entire game, whether it's lit or not. What kinds of art or lighting examples do you mean?

And the OP is one of the most passionate pin players I have met in almost 20 years of play, a very detail-oriented and thoughtful player who has thought carefully about what he says here. Thanks Mr. Newsom.

Chris, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you that Stern needs to do more than they are doing today to remain relevant. To help fill in some technology from when I started playing--I still remember playing pinball on location back in the late '60s and early '70s, and how cool it was when flippers went from 2" to 3". EMs giving way to solid state was a big change that happened right in front of me. I recall an op pulling an EM EK out after a few days and placing an SS EK telling us we were really going to like this new game, and we did. We haven't seen too many "wow" type changes in the past decade. Many good games, but not stuff that you have the urge to drive hours to play.

One poster mentioned all the boutique manufacturers as proof that innovation is alive and well. I would suggest that if the one current mainstream mfr, Stern, provided enough innovation in their product, we would not be seeing so many small shops trying to come up with something new. Our pinball market of today is screaming for new games, something different and fun, otherwise we wouldn't see JJP building WOZ either. (I, too, have purchased a ECLEWOZ and will be placing it on location.)

Regarding XMen LE, as an owner of the game, I am very disappointed. I could rail on it on several points, from being initially released with unacceptable early code, to shot lines being blocked by a too large toy, to instadrains from the Magneto bars, to quality issues on components. I hope Stern has a monster update to try and improve this game later this month. I have mine on location and we use it in league play. Rarely do I see someone camped out on it for the sheer enjoyment of playing the game.

Brian Bannon

Sorry but I still disagree. Actually the audio amps and system used in TSPP is far superior to system 11. Whitestar uses two tda2030 amps. The system 11 (and pre DCS) all use one amp to run all the speakers. The stern whitestar sound system is actually the same hardware as the Sam. And if you add a sub to TSPP, it's actually quite nice sounding with a lot of rumbling bass. If you add a sub to a system 11 game, there is barely enough power to drive the sub.