(Topic ID: 240678)

Where is the innovation in the last decade?


By Shapeshifter

7 days ago



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  • Latest reply 4 days ago by Pinballlew
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    Post #3 P3 is the definition of innovative. Posted by YeOldPinPlayer (7 days ago)

    Post #28 Support P3. Posted by solarvalue (7 days ago)


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    There are 102 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 7 days ago

    Firstly, let me say it's fantastic to have so much choice and so many new games to choose from.

    What is surprising is the lack of real innovation in the last decade or so.

    Take LOTR and TSPP, both around 15 years old.

    Give them the LCD treatment plus RGB blinky lights and they would easily be 2019 games.

    The main innovation since the 90's is more nuanced and deeper code.

    Again, love all the new game releases but are we going to get a real wow moment with something truly innovative?

    Maybe we won't?

    The main innovation in the last few years is on the screen, rather than the playfield.

    Just genuinely curious if we have reached the peak of pinball evolution?

    #2 7 days ago

    Simple economics is stopping PF innovation. Back in the 80's-90's games sold/produced per title were way higher thus bringing parts cost down. Until new games sell that many per title I fear pf innovations can't happen.

    #4 7 days ago

    I always try to think of a new concept on what can be innovative with pinball. Its not easy, plus it has to be dependable.

    -2
    #5 7 days ago

    27' lcd's, color screens, led color changing lights, interactive toppers...……..what more do you want?

    #6 7 days ago
    Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

    27' lcd's, color screens, led color changing lights, interactive toppers...……..what more do you want?

    Cameras phone connectivity , dont forget them!

    10
    #7 7 days ago

    node boards that cannot be fixed by most hobiests

    #8 7 days ago

    Not sure when this was initiated but the action button on a few sterns was an original innovation. I believe ST was the first. Also, as far as toys go think ~ Catapult Launch (Houdini) Hyper-Space Loop (ST) Revolving Gobstopper (WW) I'm sure there's more.
    Yes, the rules are more complex & to me that's what gives a machine lastability as a home machine.

    18
    #9 7 days ago

    Will you tell me what you are looking for exactly?

    “Innovation” is not what pinball needs. It needs fun games that are reliable and affordable.

    It never ends with the “innovation” thing. Pinball is pinball. If you want something that isn’t pinball go play that. You want innovation?

    I don’t see home game rooms exactly filling up with lexy Lightspeeds.

    #10 7 days ago

    More people need to pay attention to this. THE only correct answer. Look at the magnetic accelerator on ccr!

    #11 7 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Will you tell me what you are looking for exactly?
    “Innovation” is not what pinball needs. It needs fun games that are reliable and affordable.
    It never ends with the “innovation” thing. Pinball is pinball. If you want something that isn’t pinball go play that. You want innovation?
    I don’t see home game rooms exactly filling up with lexy Lightspeeds.

    I guess I mean really innovative playfield mechs.

    Yes, innovative but hasn't really caught on, so something missing?

    Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

    27' lcd's, color screens, led color changing lights, interactive toppers...……..what more do you want?

    Yes, agree and it's all fun.

    Again, just hoping there are going to be mechs on the playfield that have never been done before, and are genuine wow moments.

    #12 7 days ago

    The things that keep me buying new pins are great original artwork, great audio and “fun factor”. The Toybox ball launch in AS isn’t new, nor are the inline drops in MET. Frankly I don’t care if a mechanism is new as long as it’s fun.

    Seems like people just need something to complain about.

    #13 7 days ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    The things that keep me buying new pins are great original artwork, great audio and “fun factor”. The Toybox ball launch in AS isn’t new, nor are the inline drops in MET. Frankly I don’t care if a mechanism is new as long as it’s fun.
    Seems like people just need something to complain about.

    I am not complaining if you re-read what I wrote!

    Just wondering if we will get new playfield mechs that makes us go wow.

    Maybe it's just me wanting a bit more?

    I own Maiden and it's a brilliant game, so a game doesn't need more, I get that.

    #14 7 days ago

    I think the ball lock mechanism on IMDN (Pre/LE) is pretty damned cool; it’s one reason I’m seriously looking at getting it.

    I’d like to see playfield diverters and subways make a comeback. But I think cost and maintainability are always going to constrain mechanical innovation.

    #15 7 days ago

    I don’t think we will see anything really innovative mechanics wise. I just think there is only so much that can be done within a game of pinball. Something new and truly innovative just doesn’t seem to happen and honestly I don’t know if it is really wanted as it will probably just slow gameplay and be to much of a gimmick. Until Steve Ritchie figures out the anti gravity ball thing we will just see variations of what has already been discovered.

    #16 7 days ago

    I don't think it so much innovation, more like can we have things similar to the 90's? Like it's not that we need new mechs, but there's nothing like the castle gate on MM or the trunk on TOM, TZ gumball machine, etc.

    #17 7 days ago

    Interesting subject matter.
    There’s always going to be ongoing dialogue about innovation or interesting new interactive toys & mechs.
    Agreed with CrazyLevi, the fun factor and cost are important factors IMO as well.
    Now in saying that, my favorite interactive toy from the 90s B/W era was the castle on MM. Not sure that has ever been toppled as one of the coolest toys created.
    Still, there’s lots of fun games being made and ultimately I think that’s the key ingredient.

    15
    #18 7 days ago

    I like this innovation:

    535-0599-00_300x184 (resized).jpg
    #19 7 days ago

    How would you compare the innovation in pinball vs the innovation in cars over the last 30 years? Our cars still have four wheels, a steering wheel, fit the width of our roads, and allow us to drive ourselves from point A to B in the 10-80mph range.

    All it can really do is incorporate new technology bit by bit. If it starts flying through the air at 300mph, then it’s not a car anymore.

    (Though self-driving is going to be a huge advancement from a tech perspective, but the car will ultimately be the same...as if you could tell a pinball machine what shots you want it to make for you while you sit back and watch the score).

    #20 7 days ago

    Innovation like catching a ball in mid air in a magnetic field! Then throwing it back at you. More interactive video modes. Holographic images superimposed on the play field glass. Have all your pinball machines connected on WiFi.

    #21 7 days ago

    Virtual Pinball is an innovation in its own right.

    #22 7 days ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    How would you compare the innovation in pinball vs the innovation in cars over the last 30 years? Our cars still have four wheels, a steering wheel, fit the width of our roads, and allow us to drive ourselves from point A to B in the 10-80mph range.
    All it can really do is incorporate new technology bit by bit. If it starts flying through the air at 300mph, then it’s not a car anymore.
    (Though self-driving is going to be a huge advancement from a tech perspective, but the car will ultimately be the same...as if you could tell a pinball machine what shots you want it to make for you while you sit back and watch the score).

    Off the top of my head . . .
    - Electric motors
    - Computer assisted safety features (e.g. lane change detection, auto braking, etc.)
    - Parking cameras
    - Higher powered engines
    - Better fuel economy
    - Higher quality materials
    - Entertainment systems/hand-free
    - GPS
    - Ergonomics of interior
    . . . I could go on.

    I pinball machine still has a cabinet, flippers, metal spheres that roll on top of a playfiled, etc. similar to the core components of a car. Don't mean to be an jerk, just think the auto analogy falls short a little.

    Even so, I would consider things like RGB event controlled lighting, large interactive displays, programmable CD quality sound orchestrations, color DMD replacements for legacy pins, etc. all as innovation that has had a profound positive impact on pinball and the growth in those taking up the hobby.

    #23 7 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    “Innovation” is not what pinball needs. It needs fun games that are reliable and affordable.

    This thought was going though my mind all day at MGC. For all of the modern sound and light packages, and LCD screens on the new production games I just seem to always find myself playing a few games on the new machines then just go back to playing the classic Bally and Williams machines from the 80's.

    I know this is just my personal taste, but I just think that this obsession with new toys and gadgets in pinball machines sometimes seems to get in the way of making a game that is fun and makes me want to press the start button over and over. What I think this hobby need is more games like TNA, simple, addictive, and best of all anyone can walk up and know what to do without reading a 10 page rule sheet first.

    #24 7 days ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    Take LOTR and TSPP, both around 15 years old

    And both of those games have horrendous sound (the call outs are great, but the compressed sound by today’s standards is horrendous.

    It’s not just the screen, lights and rules that are better today, other things like audio and decals are far improved. If you look at my CSI and then my BM66 you note lots of improvements over the decade that has passed.

    #25 7 days ago

    Innovation and reliability are a difficult combination in pinball.

    #26 7 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Will you tell me what you are looking for exactly?
    “Innovation” is not what pinball needs. It needs fun games that are reliable and affordable.
    It never ends with the “innovation” thing. Pinball is pinball. If you want something that isn’t pinball go play that. You want innovation?
    I don’t see home game rooms exactly filling up with lexy Lightspeeds.

    All wrong. I totally understand what he wants - he wants something magical on the pf that captures you. Jjp potc ship is something that was impressive but it's few and far between. It doesn't need to be super technical - even the alien tongue coming out and eating the ball does it. Back in the day this happened all the time. Now it's few and far between.

    And no a spinning gobstopper doesn't do it for me.... The ball lock isn't impressive either.

    Also the lack of internet capability to play each other is just embarrassing right now.

    #27 7 days ago

    You want more innovation then people have to stop buying games before they even see the damn things. Stern and JJP can put anything out now, charge more for it and certain pinball collector's have to have the newest thing irregardless of the innovation put into it.

    #28 7 days ago

    If you want innovation support Multimorphic. These guys are investing in innovation but they are a small team with a small budget. Buy a P3, invest in the company, or get involved in making a game for the platform. The more support the platform has the more games will be produced and the more pinball will evolve.

    https://www.multimorphic.com

    #29 7 days ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    If you want innovation support Multimorphic

    YYYYYeeeaaahh but it's not quite what he saying here. Not quite the same. ElectroMechanicalMagnetic Coolness is what I am hearing. Yep, that chill I got the first time I heard Gorgar speak. The "I got to play that thing" feeling I got when I saw two balls going at one time in Nip It. The "Holy Shit" Feeling when I saw the Ring Master pick up the ball and sling over his shoulder. The amazement of watching the ball go absolutely crazy in TAF the first time.

    #30 7 days ago

    Have you followed pinballrockstar 's thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-crazy-mansion-by-the-pinball-amigos ? Innovations I remember from the thread: the coffin, the mansion rising out of the playfield, the layers of playfield each rolling in a different direction, the backbox (way over-the-top), the adjusting pitch of the lower playfield. And it's a fun thread to read every Friday.

    -Rob
    -visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my replacement LED display boards for model H & model S Skee Ball

    #31 7 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    Also the lack of internet capability to play each other is just embarrassing right now.

    People keep bringing this up, but it’s absolutely impractical. The likelihood of two people on a pinball machine at the same time in different parts of the country is unlikely. Fortnite works because there are like 100 million players. Pinball machines get to a few thousand if lucky. And then even if you were “playing against someone”, what would that even mean? Even just having high score tables would be irrelevant because games are all set up differently. Someone could take the glass off and cheat. Pinball isn’t a video game. It’s pinball. Online play isn’t going to happen and shouldn’t happen. Programmers barely can get a game finished and functional as-is ...now they have to figure out an online infrastructure & ruleset? Forget it.

    #32 7 days ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    If you want innovation support Multimorphic. These guys are investing in innovation but they are a small team with a small budget. Buy a P3, invest in the company, or get involved in making a game for the platform. The more support the platform has the more games will be produced and the more pinball will evolve.
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    Multimorphic needs to invest in an animation/art director & a dedicated professional paid aniamation/art crew. The tech is made to be purely visual, and it is useless without a team to make it shine and look contemporary.

    #33 7 days ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    People keep bringing this up, but it’s absolutely impractical. The likelihood of two people on a pinball machine at the same time in different parts of the country is unlikely. Fortnite works because there are like 100 million players. Pinball machines get to a few thousand if lucky. And then even if you were “playing against someone”, what would that even mean? Even just having high score tables would be irrelevant because games are all set up differently. Someone could take the glass off and cheat. Pinball isn’t a video game. It’s pinball. Online play isn’t going to happen and shouldn’t happen. Programmers barely can get a game finished and functional as-is ...now they have to figure out an online infrastructure & ruleset? Forget it.

    Just having an online scoreboard and achievements would be a step forward. I hear the argument "people would cheat" but if you set it up like:

    game has level detector electronically built in
    has a camera to take a pictures during play to verify glass is on
    outlane sensors
    switch hit counts (so if someone tries cheat the level detectors, they would have significantly less switch hits over time)

    It would eliminate a good portion of the 'easy' cheating. I'd be a heck of lot more interested in a new game if it offered some sort of extra challenge. Like an achievement might be 'complete album multiball' on AC/DC. Or hit a 20 way combo. And then add your friends like xbox to see who has the most. Simple things like that would generate new game sales or location play to beat all of those things. Something besides just reaching the wizard mode.

    #34 7 days ago
    Quoted from taylor34:

    Just having an online scoreboard and achievements would be a step forward. I hear the argument "people would cheat" but if you set it up like:
    game has level detector electronically built in
    has a camera to take a pictures during play to verify glass is on
    outlane sensors
    switch hit counts (so if someone tries cheat the level detectors, they would have significantly less switch hits over time)
    It would eliminate a good portion of the 'easy' cheating. I'd be a heck of lot more interested in a new game if it offered some sort of extra challenge. Like an achievement might be 'complete album multiball' on AC/DC. Or hit a 20 way combo. And then add your friends like xbox to see who has the most. Simple things like that would generate new game sales or location play to beat all of those things. Something besides just reaching the wizard mode.

    Video game achievements work because ever game is the same. Every pinball machine is different....and set up different. Outlane posts, operator settings, level, pitch...it just renders any achievements or scores irrelevant from machine A to machine B. I don’t think this would move the needle at all. If enjoying a pinball machine - human vs. game for best score - isn’t enough anymore, I dunno....lol. Most location players barely know how to start a game or play, I can’t imagine them giving a crap about internet/app features. I wonder how many people actually used the Dialed In app with the machine.

    #35 7 days ago

    For sheer playfield innovation, I think you have to give the nod to the rocking ship and cannon shot on POTC as the bar!!

    #36 7 days ago
    Quoted from dgpinball:

    For sheer playfield innovation, I think you have to give the nod to the rocking ship and cannon shot on POTC as the bar!!

    Totally agree. In a perfect world we could also mention the concentric discs but... you know...

    #37 7 days ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    I wonder how many people actually used the Dialed In app with the machine.

    I tried it a couple times. Connectivity was spotty. A fun innovation. I like the idea even if this particular implementation didn't work as reliably as I wanted it to.

    #38 7 days ago

    I think you are minimizing some amazing features that the latest game have in them, innovation is taken by steps. Just going off the last few releases, these are steps.

    DP- the katana ramp is amazing.
    Munsters- the lower playfield has ramps!!
    JJPOTC- rocking ship for an upper playfield.
    WONKA- Wonkavision puts you on the playfield.

    This doesn’t even cover the amount of changes in sound, lights and display that these companies now include. I don’t need leaps but these steps will do.

    Edit I forgot to mention the lock mechanism on TNA....awesome.

    #39 7 days ago

    I think we need more backbox interaction with ball or game other than just a LCD screen like SS or Bonzai Run. Cool innovative ball lock effects and multiballs are always a hit and should be more focused on. Original themes would be an innovation these days.

    #40 7 days ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    ..the lack of internet capability to play each other is just embarrassing right now.

    No reason that wifi-Internet connectivity isn’t implemented in today’s pins. Refrigerators and vacuum cleaners have WiFi. It’s 2019, I was playing Doom online over dialup back in the mid 90s. I would love to see some form of online component from pinball manufacturers.

    -1
    #41 7 days ago
    Quoted from Coz:

    No reason that wifi-Internet connectivity isn’t implemented in today’s pins. Refrigerators and vacuum cleaners have WiFi. It’s 2019, I was playing Doom online over dialup back in the mid 90s. I would love to see some form of online component from pinball manufacturers.

    I cannot believe there is no physical pin one can play over the Internet. What I mean by that is a pin you are watching on the equivalent of Twitch but actually playing yourself. Better yet, a pin that streams video to your VR headset so you are there real-time playing with a camera that physically adjusts to changes in your gaze. It is the ultimate connection between online and physical pinball. THAT would be a true innovation. No more location pinball. You can play any pin, anywhere, including the South Pole, as long as you have an internet connection.

    #42 7 days ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    I cannot believe there is no physical pin one can play over the Internet. What I mean by that is a pin you are watching on the equivalent of Twitch but actually playing yourself. Better yet, a pin that streams video to your VR headset so you are there real-time playing with a camera that physically adjusts to changes in your gaze. It is the ultimate connection between online and physical pinball. THAT would be a true innovation. No more location pinball. You can play any pin, anywhere, including the South Pole, as long as you have an internet connection.

    How much would you pay to play what you describe?

    #43 7 days ago

    Wasn't the Danesi lock a new innovation? An arguement could be made that a homebrew pin making it into production is pretty innovative.

    #44 7 days ago

    Strobe MB on AFM....Mist Ball on BSD.....Ball lock Sanctum on Shadow....Gum Ball Machine on TZ...Engine and Dragstrip on Corvette...Jumprope and Speed Punching Bag on Champion Pub...Rudy/Red/Ted on Funhouse/Roadshow...Claw Machine on DM.....love the B/W games!!!!

    Then we have the Bell Bash Toy on ACDC...and the....Sparky/Snake bash toy on Metallica...and the.....Iron Monger bash toy on IM.....and the um....Well Walker bash toy on TWD....and the Groot bash toy on GotG....and the um....bash toy on Munsters......oh and a Tie Fighter on a spring bash toy on SW.....

    So I mean, it's clear to see....bash toys is where it is at for innovation!!!!!!

    #45 7 days ago
    Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

    Off the top of my head . . .
    - Electric motors
    - Computer assisted safety features (e.g. lane change detection, auto braking, etc.)
    - Parking cameras
    - Higher powered engines
    - Better fuel economy
    - Higher quality materials
    - Entertainment systems/hand-free
    - GPS
    - Ergonomics of interior
    . . . I could go on.
    I pinball machine still has a cabinet, flippers, metal spheres that roll on top of a playfiled, etc. similar to the core components of a car. Don't mean to be an jerk, just think the auto analogy falls short a little.
    Even so, I would consider things like RGB event controlled lighting, large interactive displays, programmable CD quality sound orchestrations, color DMD replacements for legacy pins, etc. all as innovation that has had a profound positive impact on pinball and the growth in those taking up the hobby.

    New things in pinball off the top of my head since 1990:
    - massively more in depth rule sets (AC/DC writeup is over 40 pages long)
    - more balls in multiball
    - stereo sound
    - headphone jack on the front of the machine
    - DMD display
    - color LDC display
    - self diagnosed error messages
    - opto switches
    - subways
    - catapulting ball mechs
    - massively expanded options for rules customization through the menus
    - third party hardware that lets you rewrite the rules entirely
    - color changing inserts
    - color changing GI
    - ability to stage-flip
    - auto-plunge
    - the transformer and driver boards have been reduced to roughly 10-20% of their original size
    - (some) games weight substantially less
    - hinged head that stays attached while folding down
    - Playfields that pull up and out (and have service rails)
    - action button (lol)
    - character and mode selection options
    - cameras that take your picture
    - insight and communication into tilts
    - more hardware and software customization to lengthen or shorten ball times
    - reduced power consumption and longer lasting components (in some cases, particularly lighting)

    Hard for me to agree that this list is technologically inferior and materially different from the car list, and I would argue many of them map directly to your car examples. Cars are nicer, better, faster, stronger. But so is pinball.

    #46 7 days ago

    I’m not sure why I went back 30 years, just remembering that the title is about “last decade”. A lot less is new in the last decade, but still plenty of new stuff.

    I guess my point is that if dramatic advancements are made to pinball, it risks becoming something other than pinball. Look at P3. Amazing advancements, but better aimed at a non-pinball audience.

    #47 7 days ago

    Deeper code is a huge advance, especially for Home use.
    The 5x spinning ball start to magneto multiball is cool. Maybe wrong but I can’t recall this been done earlier.

    #48 7 days ago

    I’d like a 7 inch scoreboard screen on the apron or in the playfield in my line of sight. With glass anything is possible. Seldom have time to look up at the scoreboard during gameplay.

    #49 7 days ago

    The main innovations seem to be in the definitions of “fully shopped” and “fully restored.”

    #50 7 days ago
    Quoted from 7oxford:

    Deeper code is a huge advance, especially for Home use.
    The 5x spinning ball start to magneto multiball is cool. Maybe wrong but I can’t recall this been done earlier.

    Borg literally stole it from an earlier game of his - Twister.

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