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(Topic ID: 62517)

Where is the creativity??


By 27dnast

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 71 posts
  • 36 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by ccotenj
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    There are 71 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 7 years ago

    I think the humor and self-awareness in the unlicensed 90s B/W games is an underappreciated aspect. Think about MM, AFM, CP, CC - they all had a goofy cast of characters, silly call-outs, etc. Even some of their most-loved licensed games, like AF and SS, lended themselves to the fun, creative personality of the games.

    I think part of the problem with having all these licensed themes - and for the most part, themes tied to particular movies or shows - is that it really limits the humor potential, if that wasn't part of the personality of the underlying property (or even if it was, if you can't get the actors to re-do pinball-specific callouts). And so many of the recent licenses are so self-serious. As others have pointed out, it also limits the art potential.

    #52 7 years ago
    Quoted from callmesteam:

    I'm cool with a licensed theme or whatever (theme doesn't dictate a good game or not), I just wish they would come up with some new ideas for the actual layout, toys, shots, flow, etc. I know it has to eat quarters and still be accessible and fun, but we've been using the same skeleton for 70 years now. Or even 30 years if you want to use ramps and whatnot as a 'new generation'...
    Post edited by callmesteam : spelling

    I totally agree with this.... with the technology today they could do so much more.... Here's some ideas...

    Why not replace the wood playfield with something more advanced like a capacitive touch screen?
    What if when the ball travels across the field, it leaves some kind of a trace?
    What if balls became magnetized and de-magnetized depending on where it went?
    Have an "upper upper" playfield... ball goes in a scoop and you start playing virtual pinball on a Screen on the backbox (using of course the full gravity making it super fast!)
    What about moving, intelligent magnets under the field... (all of a sudden you see a gremlin run across the field and grab the ball).

    Ya ya... it would cost more, but we're already at the point where you can get a decent car for the price of a machine, so I can't believe there isn't room there. If they want to appeal to the new generation, they're going to have to update pinball, or I'm afraid this will just be a short lived renaissance.

    #53 7 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Of course there would be risk involved... but look at the top 15. Some of the most popular games ever made are original themes. So it's not like the risk overwhelmingly bad.
    You don't think an original theme has just a good of shot of making a splash as taking a movie and making it into a game? JJP might not be in a position to do it, but Stern certainly has done enough that a new title - assuming it's well thought-out - would have legitimacy.

    again, easy to sit behind a keyboard and tell someone to gamble away their future...

    the risk is HUGE... you need to put aside "what you want" for a few minutes and put yourself in gary's shoes...

    #54 7 years ago
    Quoted from Scorch:

    I totally agree with this.... with the technology today they could do so much more.... Here's some ideas...
    Why not replace the wood playfield with something more advanced like a capacitive touch screen?What if when the ball travels across the field, it leaves some kind of a trace?What if balls became magnetized and de-magnetized depending on where it went?Have an "upper upper" playfield... ball goes in a scoop and you start playing virtual pinball on a Screen on the backbox (using of course the full gravity making it super fast!)What about moving, intelligent magnets under the field... (all of a sudden you see a gremlin run across the field and grab the ball).
    Ya ya... it would cost more, but we're already at the point where you can get a decent car for the price of a machine, so I can't believe there isn't room there. If they want to appeal to the new generation, they're going to have to update pinball, or I'm afraid this will just be a short lived renaissance.

    stop...
    think...
    then re-read your post... you realize what the bill of materials costs alone would be? not to mention actually implementing it?

    you want video games, play video games...

    #55 7 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    stop...
    think...
    then re-read your post... you realize what the bill of materials costs alone would be? not to mention actually implementing it?

    But that's more or less P3 / multimorphic, right?
    Let's hope that project will succeed!

    #56 7 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    stop...
    think...
    then re-read your post... you realize what the bill of materials costs alone would be? not to mention actually implementing it?
    you want video games, play video games...

    This is the typical response of those who would hold progress back. I don't think Scorch was asking for a video game. His ideas are fantastically innovative and to poo poo them suggests you should stick with EMs.

    Stop...
    Think...
    Freeze in perpetuity.........

    Innovators have learned to disregard this style of thinking.

    #57 7 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    But that's more or less P3 / multimorphic, right?
    Let's hope that project will succeed!

    possibly...

    #58 7 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    But that's more or less P3 / multimorphic, right?
    Let's hope that project will succeed!

    Hadn't seen that before... but yes....

    And cost isn't astronomical either... lets look at what I proposed...

    Replace playfield with screen: what is the cost of and LCD screen today? couple hundred bucks tops. Doesn't have to be multi-touch as I mentioned, maybe a small camera that tracks ball movement etc.

    Ball leaves trace as it travels across the field: Easy with above layout, or even maybe something like what pinball 2000 can do?

    Ball magnatized/de-magnetized: again... not too difficult or expensive

    Back box being a virtual pinball: Same as baby Pacman?

    Intelligent magnets - I'm sure this could be done fairly cheaply as well... essentially a matrix of electromagnets that are computer controlled.

    The thing is, when pinball came out, it didn't have to compete with video games... now it does. Technology has improved 1000 fold over where it was 20 years ago, so why shouldn't it be applied to pinball. Why limit things to pop bumpers and ramps?

    #59 7 years ago
    Quoted from MTPPC:

    This is the typical response of those who would hold progress back. I don't think Scorch was asking for a video game. His ideas are fantastically innovative and to poo poo them suggests you should stick with EMs.
    Stop...
    Think...
    Freeze in perpetuity.........
    Innovators have learned to disregard this style of thinking.

    lets just pick one item from his list...

    "replace wood playfield with capacitive touchscreen"... wanna take a guess at the cost that would add to the bill of materials? and that leaves aside the fact that you've introduced another failure point, one that would create a large maintenance cost down the line...

    "innovation" is not the same thing as "dreaming out loud"... "innovation" is grounded in reality... his ideas, while cool (personally, i think a capacitive touchscreen pf would be way cool, even while i realize the obvious drawbacks of it, and recognize why it isn't feasible) are simply "ideas said out loud", they aren't "innovations"...

    "running a business" requires "stopping and thinking" about ramifications... businessmen (if they want to stay in business) would be wise not to avoid that type of thinking...

    again... i have nothing against original themes or innovation... but that little thing called "reality" needs to be considered... "ideas" without considering "implementation" are simply dreams... i can throw a million dreams up against the wall... but in order to run a "business", reality needs to be considered...

    if introducing reality into the the discussion is considered "poo-poo'ing", so be it...

    if people are so sure it is "that easy", and ramifications don't need to be considered, they could incorporate and start their own company...

    #60 7 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    One at least: me! (although price could be an issue)

    i'd figure out a way to pay for it...

    #61 7 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Of course there would be risk involved... but look at the top 15. Some of the most popular games ever made are original themes. So it's not like the risk overwhelmingly bad.

    But those original themes were made at a time when the industry was much stronger. And if one thing didn't work, the next 8 to 10 games the company made that year made up for it.

    Now if a company were to build a lemon, they might not come back from it.

    I'd like to see your idea come to life. Like I suggested earlier. Start a Kickstarter or something, and raise enough to get it done. Give the money to Stern or JJP. Get it done. And that way you eliminate the risk of really hurting a company.

    LTG : )

    #62 7 years ago

    I review patent submissions as part of my job. There are lots of clever ideas, but only a small handful make business sense. If the "dreamers" here could explain their ideas without crapping all over the current designs, people might actually listen to them.

    #63 7 years ago

    it's coming....I assure you...Jpop

    #64 7 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    "running a business" requires "stopping and thinking" about ramifications... businessmen (if they want to stay in business) would be wise not to avoid that type of thinking...

    I absolutely do not disagree with you. Yes, I am absolutely dreaming out loud. I did not go through a full business review and cost analysis when I wrote them down.

    Of course every business needs to look at the bottom line. The point I'm trying to make (and others on this post), is that maybe current manufacturers are playing it a bit safe, going with what they know works... which is understandable. But playing it safe also limits innovation. True innovation is taking a new idea, and making it feasible. As I mentioned before... forget the capacitive touchscreen.... regular monitor ($200) and camera ($25)... ball is tracked with cpu.

    Maybe the best idea is to start a kickstarter campaign as LTG suggests. Could be designed by the members here. Have a prototype built....funding is crowd-sourced in exchange for pre-orders. If there is enough pre-orders, have it put into production by one of the big boys.

    #65 7 years ago

    I may go off topic here, but since the original theme vs licensed theme discussion seems to come up again and again, as does Gary Stern's motivation for choosing for licensed themes, let's look at two potential themes.

    Let's say manufacturer A is doing a Pirates of the Caribbean game and manufacturer B is doing a pirate themed game named Captain Jack (no pun intended). Manufacturer A choose the theme because it will easily sell games because of the recognition. Some may say that's a lazy way of doing business, but others will think it's brilliant.
    Manufacturer B is glad he didn't license the theme, because he would be buried in dealing with IP lawyers all the time. Instead they can be as creative and innovative as they want to be (up to a certain point) and mock the license a bit. For starters company B is marketing their game months upfront and informing potential buyers of the progress in the development of the game.

    Eventually 2 companies offer 2 pirate themed games. Company A may have a jumpstart due to the popularity of the theme, but they also have a so-so reputation when it comes to reliability and earnings. Company B is a new player on the scene, but their game turns out to be pretty innovative (LCD in the playfield), fun to play and brings in more cash at locations. Even operators that turned down pinball in general are now interested in this game.

    Now the biggest question: how will this scenario affect the pinball market in general?
    Will it be positive or negative? Or does that depend on from which side you look at it? Will both companies go broke? Will company A raise their prices because they sell less games due to competition? Will company B sell enough games to make it as a manufacturer? Will company A get more creative in their designs now that they have to compete against something else than their own product? Is competition good or bad for the business? Does it require competition to become creative again?

    Sure this is all theory, but it could be interesting to see what people think will happen.

    #66 7 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    lets just pick one item from his list...
    "replace wood playfield with capacitive touchscreen"... wanna take a guess at the cost that would add to the bill of materials? and that leaves aside the fact that you've introduced another failure point, one that would create a large maintenance cost down the line...
    "innovation" is not the same thing as "dreaming out loud"... "innovation" is grounded in reality... his ideas, while cool (personally, i think a capacitive touchscreen pf would be way cool, even while i realize the obvious drawbacks of it, and recognize why it isn't feasible) are simply "ideas said out loud", they aren't "innovations"...
    "running a business" requires "stopping and thinking" about ramifications... businessmen (if they want to stay in business) would be wise not to avoid that type of thinking...
    again... i have nothing against original themes or innovation... but that little thing called "reality" needs to be considered... "ideas" without considering "implementation" are simply dreams... i can throw a million dreams up against the wall... but in order to run a "business", reality needs to be considered...
    if introducing reality into the the discussion is considered "poo-poo'ing", so be it...
    if people are so sure it is "that easy", and ramifications don't need to be considered, they could incorporate and start their own company...

    Well, I can see where 7" screens could be embedded like inserts and an overlay is used to make it look non-rectangular in key places. Obviously you cannot have pop bumpers and slingshots poking through an LCD. But none-the-less, who would have dreamt the ubiquity of microwave ovens during the early days of the space program. You need to have big ideas to end up with little improvements and the current cost of a technical innovation should never be used to eliminate any opportunity for further development.

    #67 7 years ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    Sure this is all theory, but it could be interesting to see what people think will happen.

    Full Throttle should demonstrate this one way or the other.

    #68 7 years ago
    Quoted from ccotenj:

    ... i have nothing against original themes or innovation... but that little thing called "reality" needs to be considered... "ideas" without considering "implementation" are simply dreams... i can throw a million dreams up against the wall... but in order to run a "business", reality needs to be considered...
    if introducing reality into the the discussion is considered "poo-poo'ing", so be it...
    if people are so sure it is "that easy", and ramifications don't need to be considered, they could incorporate and start their own company...

    I question how realistic your assessment of reality is. Certainly you cannot make a bunch of assumptions based on a few ideas thrown in the air. My point is simply that your denigration of innovative ideas is not at all helpful to the innovators or the consumers of said innovation. Those who will take the risks and do the innovating are much better equipped to determine the feasibility of the innovations than a casual observer who has only scratched the surface of the idea.

    #69 7 years ago
    Quoted from MTPPC:

    Well, I can see where 7" screens could be embedded like inserts and an overlay is used to make it look non-rectangular in key places. Obviously you cannot have pop bumpers and slingshots poking through an LCD. But none-the-less, who would have dreamt the ubiquity of microwave ovens during the early days of the space program. You need to have big ideas to end up with little improvements and the current cost of a technical innovation should never be used to eliminate any opportunity for further development.

    If you want to talk about creative use of LCD, go look at some of the latest slot machines out there. Not only do they use the hell out of traditional LCD screens, they have a newer tech that looks like an LCD suspended inside the glass that protects the display. You could start putting those kind of "screens" directly on the playfield with a polycarb cover to protect from the ball.

    #70 7 years ago
    Quoted from GaryMartin:

    If you want to talk about creative use of LCD, go look at some of the latest slot machines out there. Not only do they use the hell out of traditional LCD screens, they have a newer tech that looks like an LCD suspended inside the glass that protects the display. You could start putting those kind of "screens" directly on the playfield with a polycarb cover to protect from the ball.

    You're talking about transparent LCDs. They stack a couple on top of each other and can really get some cool 3d effects. Yes there is some big opportunity for innovation.

    #71 7 years ago
    Quoted from Scorch:

    I absolutely do not disagree with you. Yes, I am absolutely dreaming out loud. I did not go through a full business review and cost analysis when I wrote them down.
    Of course every business needs to look at the bottom line. The point I'm trying to make (and others on this post), is that maybe current manufacturers are playing it a bit safe, going with what they know works... which is understandable. But playing it safe also limits innovation. True innovation is taking a new idea, and making it feasible. As I mentioned before... forget the capacitive touchscreen.... regular monitor ($200) and camera ($25)... ball is tracked with cpu.
    Maybe the best idea is to start a kickstarter campaign as LTG suggests. Could be designed by the members here. Have a prototype built....funding is crowd-sourced in exchange for pre-orders. If there is enough pre-orders, have it put into production by one of the big boys.

    i don't disagree with much of that... i do think that there are certain pieces of technology that could be adapted for use in a pin, and that they could become strong marketing points... i think you'd have to be careful of "innovation for the sake of innovation"...

    oh boy... it'd never actually get built if you did "design by committee"... although it would be fun to sit back and watch what happens...

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