Moved to Stern Pinball Sub Forum.

This thread explains to me why we can't get my buddies LE to have the six ball multi ball . . . we thought there was something wrong with his game . . . didn't realize it was the code not being set for the six ball. With Stern now making Premiums of the Avengers, you'll get another code update.

XMen LE has really good code now. If the Ice Ramp bothers you (I don't like it), just disable it. XMen rocks.

I have wondered the same thing. Wouldn't that be false advertising? I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone challenged this in court. I bought a Hulk largely fir the 6 ball also. But I recently sold it so I guess it matters no more.

I think this sucks but the fact is that this is the way Stern, and now JJP, has done things regularly. Want them to stop their way of doing business? Stop doing business with them.

When a game does not sell big it does not seem that Stern stands by the product by giving it the proper code updates.

Here is a thread with a ton of great ideas for small improvements to the code for Avengers:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/avengers-code-wish-list

The game is just begging for combos and combo awards. Also, the shots to Black Widow when extra ball is lit should be diverted to the extra ball VUK. The lack of attract sounds is another feature that shows clear neglect by Stern.

I agree and feel no sympathy when I see people complain about incomplete code. I learned the hard way and stopped buying NIB since it's a crapshoot and there are no guarantees...just look at WOF. Stern can do what they want since LE's are sold out before they are even built. People threaten they will not buy the next NIB but as soon as the hype begins they get sucked in, just look at Star Trek.

This game does not have incomplete code.

Stern did not promise 6 ball multiball as far as I know. They promised 6 balls in the machine. I've had 6 balls going in hulk multiball several times via add-a-ball. I see nothing that indicates this isn't how it was intended. For all we know, the wizard mode uses all 6 balls.

As for the WoF comment, avengers code is quite complete. It's nothing like WoF. There aren't any code updates because none are needed. Could it use an update of some sort? Perhaps. Does it need one? Nope, it's all there and pretty well polished, too.

How many Stern games do not have any attract sounds?

Metallica already has attract sounds.

That makes sense, that was what I understood the code to do as well... I thought from this thread it was not doing it and was like WTF... why is this the first time someone is complaining about it? Seems like a big miss etc.

Code does support 6 ball multiball... it is not an auto 6 ball multiball though.

IM unfortunately, and many games from around that era. Seems like a stupid way to save almost no programming time.

Shouldn't it just rely on existing code, directed to a new sound bite? Apparently too much effort for some programmers....

Agreed. I have had 6 multi-ball hulks going before. Doesn't launch 6 at the start, but more can get added.

2:30 in the video. Gomez says there is a 6-ball multiball.

I was not comparing the code of WOF to Avengers, but nearly showing how Stern has had no problem in the past just leaving a game as-is and moving onto the next title. If the code is complete and well polished on Avengers then I guess the design failed. Look what a well polished code did to Spiderman, Tron, and AC/DC. All three of those games could be had for less then NIB prices for months after they were released. I don't see the prices of Avengers going up and they selling for way below what they cost. I am not one who feels NIB games should keep their value and actually expect them depreciate once opened. However Avengers are selling for a lot less then what they cost so if the code is complete then I guess Stern failed on the design and there is nothing that will save it. It's OK and not every game is going to be a homerun. Even after the code was finished on Transformers the prices never bounced back because you cannot fix the mini playfleid with code. The design on X-MEN is good but time will tell what they do with the code.

Well perhaps they decided not to do it that way. I doubt its due to incomplete code. Of all things, increasing number of balls in a mb is generally around a one line code change. It's more likely a decision that was done by Lonnie to do it this way instead. And you still can have a 6 ball mb as I noted above.

@Bojo: prices not skyrocketing on a game doesn't indicate that the code is incomplete nor does it indicate the game design is a failure. It simply indicates that demand is lower than supply. Not every game will be a home run. But avengers is pretty fun and I would hardly classify it as a failure.

I understand and even said the same thing in my previous post not every game is going to be a homerum, but that is still the expectation I hold Stern to. I don't expect the price to skyrocket on Avengers but it would be nice to see people not taking baths when they go to sell. While supply/demand does dictate price I bet there a lot more Tron, AC/DC, and Spidermans produced then Avengers. So the demand is always there for great games and it's up to Stern to deliver. Just look at all the AC/DC Premiums made compared to the Avengers Premiums you rarely see.

If a game is good then the demand will go up. Distributors were sitting on NIB Tron pro and LE's for a long time and there was no demand at all. I know because got a really nice price on one. So what changed and cause the price to go up on Tron after so long? The code was updated and that is what drove up the demand. If the demand was there the whole time then people would have been buying then regardless of code or design. Avengers is a killer theme and super hero machines seem to thrive in the pinball hobby, so I just feel Stern dropped the ball on Avengers just like they did on Transformers and possibly X-MEN. I never said Avengers sucked or was a failure and I am one who enjoys playing TF, I just feel some of these games could be improved and don't think Stern will do so since they have so many other newer games/issues to focus on.

I'm pretty damn sure that the game had 6 ball MB on release and they specifically changed the code in one of the updates to not have 6 ball MB for some reason. Maybe for the add a ball factor.

Am I the only person that recalls this being discussed on Pinside? I do think Im losing my mind a bit at times...this could be yet another example. But I think I'm right.

I think I'm on 1.4 - that's the latest, right?

6 ball multiball was in earlier version of the software, but was reduced to 4 ball + add-a-ball in later versions. So there was some design thought and revision to that feature.

I've had 6 balls going on mine, so it will do it with the add-a-ball.

I'd love to see TAV get one more update, but as it stands it is good.

The only update I need on mine is for Hulk not to lift his arms a third time for multi-ball. He still catches the bridge and even holds it up at times. The BW ramp is perfect the way it is for making the shot. If Stern made this small change my game would be perfect for me.

6-ball mb is awesome on avengers! Fits the layout so well. The only reason i can think for them to take out gimmie 6-ball mb is so that the tesserect does not get slammed so much. Other than that, 6-ball mb still exists. You can still get it in hulk mb but its difficult. Also, I've gotten up to 5 balls via back to back vs modes then starting hulk and got 6. And, battle for earth (if I remember correctly) is also 6 ball mb. So 6-ball mb does exist, I've seen it!

That said, I agree with markmon that the code is complete. But I will say there is a lot of room for improvement and until they make these improvements, I will not have the game in my lineup again.

You'd think that they would do the opposite.

Perhaps the pins that don't sell as well need updated code more than the pins that are selling well?

I thought there was still going to be another update to come (shrugs)

Combos would be great, but the game isn't set up for many. BW to IM and IM to BW, but not much else, unless you do Loki to CA. It's certainly nothing like xmen in that sense.

Shield award DOT animation needs to be fixed. It is Gomez last game he will design . It needs to be updated to leave us with one of his best pinball machine's. I hope they add a code update . If I were Gomez I would want to go out this a bang. It would be nice to see .

Sadly, I don't think it will get an update. I spoke to Lonnie on this and although he liked some of our ideas, and had some good ones as well; he said ultimately, its George (and others) decision on what games get updates and when. Avengers was not in the picture at the time

I'd still like to see a rule associated with the BW spinner. My idea was after 30 or so spins, start a nick fury hurry up similar to the gambit hurry up. Award points and a nick fury random award. I also felt there needs to be more NF awards, like spot letter or something to help a player advance in the game.

The LE is set up for plenty of combos because it has orbits from Capt. America and Iron Man as well as feedback ramps from Hawkeye and Black Widow.

This. If TAV sales are lackluster, polishing it up will give it some new legs. If it sold a few hundred more units, that is hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue.

This is why Lyman is The Man. Obviously in this case what this means is Lonnie's time is not allocated to work on TAV. Lyman in this situation ends up doing it on his own. That is why we love Lyman.

I don't begrudge Lonnie for not taking his work home with him, it's just a shame that decision was made from above. It's also surprising if it is George's last game, that he wouldn't want it to be remembered as a huge achievement instead of a dud.

Why would Stern care if the secondary market goes up or down for their games? They don't release software to boost the value of the machines in your home, they want to sell the NIB ones which don't fluctuate in price until they do another run of them. This is why some code updates come along with a new run of machines IMO.

I'll hold onto hope. There will be 2 more Avengers movies over the next several years with the current cast. This pinball will be relevant for a while. I'm going to think they wouldn't mind making some more money off it and some programmers' salaries would be worth it.

If anyone goes to Expo and sees GG, hold his feet to the fire on this .

That's missing the point though. It's a matter of Stern obtaining good will by continuing to support pins that are already sold. Happy prior customers (who see Stern continue to update code) are much more likely to buy again if they have some confidence that the code will continue to be updated.

This is his last one? Kind of a shame.. he definitely went downhill. My favorite Gomez game is JM, followed by MB. Only Stern games of his I like are Sopranos and LOTR, and the latter mostly because of the rules. Once he started making ramps out of butyrate plastics, things really went downhill. They LOOK nice but play poorly. TF is just boring and AV is a boring clunkfest.

Put some time on RFM. Gomez's vision for the future of pinball in the late 90's was fantastic.

Had pin2k stayed around for a few more titles I think the landscape of pinball would look very different at the moment and we wouldn't have had the turn of the century downturn we faced...at least it wouldn't have been as deep of a dip anyway.

You would think that it wouldn't have taken you three games, before you learned your lesson from buying games sight unseen.

You guys crack me up!

It's really not. If you haven't, you need to play a dialed in pro, preferably one with LEDs.

I have had several people come over to play my pro saying how crappy they thought the game would be based on what they read here on pinside. Then they play it and realize how good the game is and wonder why they need an LE. The common remark is how much there is to do on the game, the great sound and light show.

Tbf to JJP they are still working on code for WOZ and still plan to finish it. Time will tell but Stern have previous on a number of machines for just quitting the code early.

Really sad to hear that avengers won't get an update. Also hoping xmen n Metallica don't get left behind n get the updates they deserve.

I,m like what others are saying. I know that I had 6 balls going in multi ball when I first got the game new.
I think I was reading some where that Stern reduced it down to only 4 in a code update because they were afraid that having a 6 ball multiball too often would cause the playfield to get beat up too quickly.

If Gomez didn't care after what he pulled with Transformers why would he care with Avengers?

Between TF and AVLE, AVLE blows TF out of the water, IMHO of course.

I agree the flat plastics for ramps was a bad idea.

Maybe it was something to do with the Hulk mechanism? Stern's IJ has a bigger multiball and I haven't heard of any playfield issues.

There's nothing fair or unfair about it. Buying games with incomplete code will always be a risk.

this video has some virus or bug in it and has f'd up my computer. beware.

I had 5-ball going during Hulk and Loki today via the add-a-ball. Also finally got the Loki SJP and got to watch the dmd, pretty good. There's one case where a sound byte from the movie would've been *perfect*. Krazy fun game.

I believe 6 ball was dropped after the last update.
I really dont miss it. If the Prem moves forward like the rumor has it ....we will get another update.
If not it may be a long time.

Transformers DID get an update this past year, and so did Xmen LE so anything is possible. TAV has so much potential to be a top game, far more than Transformers.

The only stern game I know of that has been abandoned with incomplete code is WoF. The only stern games that actually need an update right now are xmen and Metallica.

Just because a game was released recently does not mean code is incomplete. Avengers came out with nearly finished code and the minor updates added almost nothing. The game code really is fine as it is. It does not need an update. It does not have unfinished code. Not only that, but the game code is actually very good.

I'd say acdc is finished also. If any more updates come out, its just added extra fun. Not because its unfinished. Transformers was finished and we got an update recently. That wasn't an update that finished anything. It was one that added some requested features.

Xmen is finally almost done. They need to make a couple more changes and its good. Dead pool needs to be addressed. Either added or remove from the menus. Metallica is sort of unplayable to me at this point. I have done everything I can do on the current code. But it's new and I'm sure it'll get updates. Unfortunately, most the coding time has probably been spent trying to fix the hammer lock.

A couple things about TAV code:

1) The NF award does not "add time"...to anything timed
2) there's a setting in the menu to modify "double scoring" as well as "fast scoring"...despite neither feature being in the game.

The BW spinner doesn't do shit but spin and add tiny points. This should be fixed. I'd also like to see some cool feature added to Hulk MB for shots to Hulk from the BW Ramp. As it is, I don't believe you get anything special....making the shot pretty pointless...unless hitting the shot when all the targets are up gives you something cool. I also think they could get more imaginative with Super Skill Shot Rewards. How about bonus X? Or an add-a-ball? Or automatic completion of CA or BW on the last ball? What if you got skill shots on each ball? Maybe a hurry up? And if you got SUPER skill shots on all three balls a timed double scoring MB?

Stern Skill shot rules/rewards in general need upgrading. I like the Double and Triple Bonus on SM...I like the bonus X and VIP pass....but that's all I can think of with Stern. Love the MM and AFM hurry ups and the MB version of VIPs.

Otherwise, I'm fairly satisfied with the TAV rules, but the game could be epic if they really wanted to make it so.

as a law school dropout (and as someone who didn't read every post in this thread) I believe a class action may be in order. to me this is no different than a company advertising xx mpg when in fact it's less (can you say ford hybrids or Hyundai's). a similar (yet slightly different) case would be the Mazda miata that advertised a certain hp and then offered refunds (or other perks) to owners. there are other examples that escape me but the general theme is either a) a manufacturer feeling obligated to right a wrong or b) a manufacturer feeling the heat from potential or actual litigation. I don't know that a class action lawsuit helps because the lawsuit will be harmful to stern while mostly only rewarding the law firm and lawyers involved; I could see the owners getting a $50 check and $75 off a shaker motor or some other paltry compensatory award.