I will admit they seem to be getting better. I will also admit I am trying to keep an open mind. But even aside from the strobing (which in my opinion pretty much renders the game unplayable), I see a lot of unnaturalness to the light from these LEDs. Weird reflections off the ball as it is traveling around, other strangeness. For all their disadvantages the ancient incandescent light bulb is pretty perfected in light dispersal. Or maybe we are just more used to it?

And you mention them being brighter as an advantage. I think that is where we part ways. To me that is the real problem with LEDs, they are in a lot of cases just too bright, especially in GI and flashers. We shouldn't have to wear protective sunglasses to play a game of pinball. IMHO.

they are too bright, but because of the direction the light is going, it blinds you sometimes, and this is where I think they need these super brites to redirect the light differently and they would light up the playfield more without blinding you.

man and i just got into the hobby, (still looking for my first pin) there better be some nice people left.

If only that were possible.

I got in to this hobby because I enjoy fixing the playing the games. Pulling a game out of someones house that has been sitting there for 20 years and getting it going agian nd having someone else enjoy it for another 20 years is what i like

I could never afford thi hobby but if your in the game pins have a way of finding you

I would say it's always about the money no matter what hobby your into. I love the mods and the flashing lights along with the attraction. Some will and some won't. Why is it, if someone does and he's not been into pinball machines way back from the 80's, he's ruining it? I just do not get all the crying in pinball. "There's no crying in pinball". Do you think a guy is going to fix up a car and sell it for the same price? Why, is it if a guy sales a pinball for what he thinks it's worth, it's wrong? What makes your pricing right? Because you can afford it? Look, I would love a MM or MB but I am not going to spend over 10K to get one. Just because I want one and your wanting 24K for it doesn't make you an "a"hole or a horrible person. It just make me a non-buyer at this point. FYI, if I put LED's in a machine, I am going to charge more money for it. My time it worth something. If your times isn't worth anything then come mow my yard for free and while your at it wash my truck. Yes, I did not read every post of this thread but I read enough to scratch my head and want to pass out tissues. To you guy's making mod's, keep up the good work. To you guy's putting in LED's, keep making the game look amazing! To you guy's who power coat your machines and love them, keep doing so. To you guys who hate it, don't buy it and let's just all get along.

I think that's the issue. How much money do you think you should get for changing a bunch of light bulbs? $10/hr? $15/hr? Okay, then if you want to get paid for your labor that's another $45 coming to you. It doesn't add $500 to a machine like some people seem to think.

well said...

In theory that is definitely true. Some of us do not have that option though.

I agree. And my post wasn't meant to say that I hate anyone that is modding their machine with LEDs, just to point out that not everyone is a fan. Just like I think it was kind of sad a while back that there was so much talk about the wonders of playfield clearcoating that newbies coming into the hobby were sometimes afraid to even play a game they had just purchased until such "necessary" repairs had been done. Regardless that the game had already been played thousands of times without it. Regardless that the game already had a nice clearcoat from the factory.

Now the newbies are being programmed by this group (and others) that the game is somehow broken or defective without such additions. I have seen it in person, folks will come over to my house and look at me like I'm crazy that I hardly have any LED lights in my tables, especially with the higher end titles. "How can you own a CC or a MM without LEDs, powdercoating, color DMD, etc? When are you going to get around to doing all that?". Never is pretty much my answer. Now enjoy a game on one of my machines without a headache or seizure afterwards, and you are welcome.

In fact we seem to agree 100% on what the problem is. Our only divergence is everything you just described is why I'm not spending hundreds of dollars to put these in my games (that, and general pinball poverty right now). With such a defect that hasn't been worked out just yet I don't understand why so many folks are doing this. Presumably the technology on these bulbs will eventually fix these issues, if so I might dip my toe, but right now it's a lot of money for a sucky experience. Again, IMHO.

Or turn the socket 180 degrees so the bulb is pointing the other direction.

LTG : )

Personally, I don't like LED's, but, I do admit, for some GI lighting, then can look nice. Nothing that the ball rolls over though, even with the new ones the ball just disappears to my eyes.

I'm not a huge fan of them but do like the reduced power and heat they generate. So I like them in my backbox if it doesn't change colors for those benefits. My lotr came with them throughout and I do not notice issues with ball roll-over but have in others.

I dislike LED's...to each their own.

I'm part of the price issue, I ask a lot for my pins because everything I want to buy, people are asking a lot for them. It is a vicious circle.

I've been in the hobby quite a while now, and I can't tell you how many pins I have fixed and shopped for free or at a loss. It used to be: Buy a pin, fix a pin, shop a pin, sell a pin to fund the purchase of another. No money was made, you were just happy to get most or all of your money back.

I feel, prices will come down on older games as newer games displace the top 100 pins. Just like SS games have displaced EM's. Again, my opinion, this is already happening with games from the early & mid 80's. The late 80's & early 90's will follow next. As with anything, there will be exceptions, but newer games are generally more desirable.

I too recently got into this hobby and have been looking for my first pin. I must say that I was pretty shocked at the prices as well. I too am in it for the hobby and want to learn the ins and outs of pinball ownership. The entry price point is getting to the place of where I can't even look at a semi-popular DMD that is trashed for under $2k. I have already spoken with some great people here in the NW and I hope to meet them in person at the NW pinball show in June, but so far the hunt has been pretty much "top shelf" or garbage. Both at a premium.

Original thread to discuss what's missing from "the hobby", degrades to postings about LEDs and pricing. Getting too familiar.