It is and has been the stated business model of Stern, Jersey Jack and Planetary that they can make unlimited runs of any game. Not sure how some people have seemly overlooked that.

Kim

Well said sir!!!

OMG rational thought !

There are many positives to remakes and reruns but some seem to overlook or simply deny that there are negatives as well… I'm sure everyone else will be listing the positives so I will take the other side as usual since I don't thrive on or live and die by 'thumbs up' like some…

A small rerun here or there is fine and even adding MMr probably won't SERIOUSLY affect things but now with remakes and reruns seemingly the 'cool' thing it sounds like they could get out of control the next couple years… If you believe the rumors that is.

In a nutshell continued reruns and remakes will kill the collector market… a market that put tons of money into this hobby and help it grow and expand. No matter what anyone feels about the collector their money is just as important in this hobby as your money. Also, continued reruns and remakes kill values, values that some guys rely on to continue to enjoy the hobby. Most guys in the hobby are not rich. Many guys are in the hobby for the enjoyment only but many of these guys also have to rely on the investment part so they can continue to enjoy it. This is an expensive hobby and some guys simply cannot afford to lose money on their pins. Without a gain or at least a break-even point some will have to leave just for the financial difficulty. Not to mention the flooding of the market… you know supply exceeding demand… supply exceeding money and space…

Some may not like this and give me all the thumbs down but these are facts, reality… don't have to like it but it can't be denied.

If none of these negatives affect you, GREAT! Enjoy! Just realize the negative are there and depending how serious these negative get… they will determine the future of the hobby.

There are absolutely no negatives to more new machines in the marketplace. IMHO if you purchase a pin with the intent to resell down the road you should always expect to get less than you paid for it(this is especially true if you mod the everlovin' hell out of it). If your not in it for the enjoyment of playing you're in it for the wrong reason.

Like I said... some will simply refuse to see the otherside or understand anything about it. To say there are absolutely no negatives... denial is the only word I can use here without risk of a ban.

Well spoken by an Important member of Pinside.

Usually when you make sure an absolute and all-encompassing statement like this you're wrong. And this is no exception.

Paraphrasing the sentiment that I've read in this and the other threads, everyone immediately jumps to "if you care about the value of your machine, then you're in it for the wrong reasons..."

When you put a used Stern up for sale, trying to get as much as you can for it, it's usually to buy another pinball machine from someone else who has one for sale, who's trying to get as much as they can for it, so they can afford another pin....etc.

There's a balance to the marketplace. I think history has shown that when manufacturers take a look at a collectible marketplace and say "Hey, let's produce more of those, since their becoming valuable in the secondary market..." then you kill a certain portion of the used market which circulates money BACK into new game sales.

There's good and there's bad to these remakes. I can tell you it's not as absolute and definitive as certain people are making it out to be.

I can bet you many of those 2013 $6k IM sales went towards ST premiums, ACDC premiums, or other used machines which may have led THOSE sellers to purchase new Sterns...etc.

I think pinball companies should stick to making new and better machines, and leave the used/retro market to the collectors, honestly. I think the reason IM is being remade is because Mustang is underperforming in terms of sales (who couldn't have seen that coming??), and I don't know if that really speaks to the success of a pinball manufacturer, more of a stop gap to get them through the quarter and lessening the value of their used machines at the same time.

I'm neither denying or overlooking the fact that a few select titles have lost some value, that's a understood risk we all take when buying any collectible. The more pins out in the world the better, including remakes. If you can't agree with that then it's you in denial.

My advise to the current IM and MM owners would be to enjoy your game and not worry about the resale value. You did buy them to play, right?

Bingo. Give the man a cigar.

Kim

^^^^^^This doesn't make sense to me....^^^^^
If values go down, that would mean it would be cheaper for guys to enjoy the hobby.

If you have 2 pins now and the prices drop in half you will still have 2 pins and all the other pins will be half price also. Trade your 2 half price pins for a different 2 half price pins. You are still enjoying the hobby with 2 pins.

If you cannot afford to lose ANY money in ANY hobby, you are over extended.

For some people making money is their hobby, and selling pins is how they do it. The remakes will hurt these people. They will just have to find a different way to make money.

Those dick weeds should leave the hobby!

If it's all about money then it's not a hobby, it's a business.

This might get rid of some of the newbies that are a plague on pinball.

I like your train of thought teekee!

Chris Kruger

Must own an ironman"..........

I hope stern makes thousands more of all their popular titles...pinball for the masses! investment be damned!!!!... keeping prices reasonable will help draw new players/owners and expand the hobby...

Thank you stern

Well that Chevys new camaro got inspired by the old camaro .....

image-229.jpg

Cool. I'm with this guy. The more people playing/owning/restoring/modding the better

Which got inspired by the mustang.

I don't even know what to say to this. Help grow and expand? Pinball is dying with small rises and valleys. Pinball used to pull in more money than Hollywood. As is, the best games ,the games that would really hook people on location, are at a price point that is far beyond the economics for any business to put them on location. If you can't put pinball machines on location, the hobby is dead in 10-20 years. Remakes allow a company to by pass the expense of engineering and research and hopefully help them put a product out at hopefully a price point that is attractive to businesses. The industry I believe could come back if businesses could buy $3500 MM, AFM, TZ, WW ect.. This talk about collectors putting a ton of money into the market is kind of bunk as well. The only reason that the home market is becoming a larger percentage of the total is that business quit buying because the economics don't work anymore. Operators and business need to exist to make the industry work. Homeowners and collectors will never support a 7,000-10,000 run on anything. Much less half that..

StrangelovePhD, Im not sure where you get "Pinball is dying with small rises and valleys." Just look at Boston eBay sales chart - http://bostonpinball.biz/ebay0513.htm . The prices of pin's have been going up steadily since 2010 which means more demand. "Barcades" are popping up etc.. The secondary pinball market is so strong currently Stern is going back to re-manufacture IM which has the first run almost sold out already..

They could stop making new pins tomorrow and the pinball won't go away...just the "business" end of those relying on it to make money. They cloud this by calling it "supporting the hobby", but in the grand scheme of things - it's still making money. I don't sell games to pay for my parts orders. I use my earned employment cash to buy them. If I don't have extra available from my paycheck, then I have to do without.

I just think statements about remakes killing the hobby is a bunch of crap. Maybe it kills the hobby for you, but it certainly won't for me.

Small rise after a recessionary dip. Barcades don't really count. Most I have been to have phased out their pinball machines. Skee-ball probably outnumbers pinball 20-1 in the wild.

Compare the production numbers of 1990 vs 2012. Production likely isn't a quarter of what it was in 90s.

1990
http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?yr=1990&searchtype=advanced

2012
http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?yr=2012&searchtype=advanced

Sure. It's a different market, and not nearly as many manufacturers to support as existed in 1990.

There will gradually be an increase in homeowner market saturation, unless Pinball can keep recruiting new enthusiasts in the future as has been the case the past 5 years, which will lead to a pullback in production. When that happens is anybody's guess, because it really depends on the machines, the marketplace, the themes, the culture, the economy in general, etc. Could be in 20 years or 2 years, but sooner rather than later is the consensus, however nobody really knows.

With new machines staying relatively new in collector's homes, there's very little wear and tear and need for 'replacement' machines. It's simply moving machines around, like musical chairs except chairs are added (new collectors) and when the chairs aren't being added, then they will run short and prices will drop, and manufacturers will pull back, ala Stern 2007.

While it's a historic perspective, nothing about 1990 really applies to the here and now in Pinball.

Musical pinball chairs? huh.

165000601.jpg

Months and months of fighting have actually really fleshed out teekee's position well. I gave him his first thumbs up in a while from me for articulating the negatives to remakes well and in a fair manner.

Double edged sword most of my titles if remade would lose money. I bought them all to play. Hope to get most my money back out when I am done with them. But if the market got flooded to the point where they all went down then pins would be everywhere and cheap. Could also probably make a few bucks on the side form all the new people not knowing how to do anything to a pinball machine. More owners means more need for repairs.

I just hope the quality stays on the remakes. Everything else is not up to me. Only when to stay and when to get out. But it is in my blood and doubt it is leaving anytime soon. I have never been one to live for money just for LIFE and FUN.