(Topic ID: 155025)

where do you draw the line (league related)


By SHOOTTHEPYRAMID

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Drlawl
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#1 3 years ago

the other night we had a player miss league night for a worthy reason and that player was allowed to make up the games they missed (which i think is fine as long as someone is playing with them and its still the same day) the tournament director offered to play the make up games with them. I was playing on the table next to them and as this player was about to plunge off and start rockin on ball three the TD stopped them and told them they should hard plunge. when the player asked why the TD told them "well because you only need one more k-i-s-s letter. you can hard plunge which will score you the k-i-s-s letter and score you the F in F-I-L-M. Then the ball save will give it back to you and you can soft plunge into the p-a-i-d lanes". Considering that this player is usually in the middle of the rankings (out of about 30 players) i found this behavior to be unfair to others who are ranked below them (and to a lesser degree everyone else in the league).

so my questions are: at what point is it no longer ok to coach along new players? how do you distinguish between a handicap and an unfair advantage? what would you have done in this situation? are higher ranked players less deserving of opportunities to bend the rules in their favor?

also, i think there should be a new sub forum in the playing section for league and tourney related topics (just tossin it out there).

thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

#2 3 years ago

There should be no talking to a player while he/she is playing a league ball unless they initiate the conversation and it's non-pinball related. Tips get passed around a lot in groups between balls, but there's little that can be done about that. I agree, no coaching while the ball is in play.

#3 3 years ago

Coaching during play is generally a no-no. Between-balls advice is usually OK. This was (barely) between the balls so probably legit, but the fact it came unsolicited kinda sucks for the other players.

16
#4 3 years ago

If you are gonna lose a league match because a player gets such basic advice, you probably aren't gonna do too well anyway. That "advice" might have cost you 5 million points on a good day.

That kind of stuff never bothers me. But leagues have rules for it, and yours should too. Either coaching allowed or it isn't but if there isn't any specific rule against you really can't complain. Find your own coach.

#5 3 years ago

We allow make ups in the league I'm in, and I have hosted folks when they are making up their games. I'm honestly not a competitive person by nature but since other guys are and I'm a stickler for following rules I would not have offered up that advice regardless of the skill level of that player. Not while he was playing his make-up games. Before or after, probably might have. I also don't share the other scores in that person's group until they finish their game since they already have the advantage of playing by themselves without the distraction of other people around. We don't require that the make-up person play against someone else, probably not a bad idea but usually when someone is making up they tend to be in a hurry to get it over with.

#6 3 years ago

How is someone explaining the rules of the game an unfair advantage? Is it a Pinball no-no to help out other players? That sounds crazy. They still have to make the correct shots.

Seems very trivial to me. And just like the above poster, if you have a problem with that then you aren't going to place well anyways. Hoping that your opponents don't know the rules is not a good strategy.

I think pinball is about having fun, not nitpicking everything.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from KGSoloman:

How is someone explaining the rules of the game an unfair advantage? Is it a Pinball no-no to help out other players? That sounds crazy. They still have to make the correct shots.

The player is no longer making their own decisions, the "coach" is. Sure they are making the shots, but knowledge of the pinball differentiates the best players from everyone else.

Give a crash coarse between balls, but when your hands are on the flippers all decision making should be on you.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from KGSoloman:

How is someone explaining the rules of the game an unfair advantage? Is it a Pinball no-no to help out other players?

It's iffy...I mean one of the reason players are better than other players is knowledge of rules; it's only one part of it.
The real issues come in when someone is getting rules given to them whilst playing, which is frowned upon unless it's your kid playing or something. If my borther was playing in a league and I was standing next to him teaching him the rules that's juts lame.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from KGSoloman:

How is someone explaining the rules of the game an unfair advantage?

If they were doing that, at that exact same moment and situation when the other players were playing their turn, then I would agree. As it is in this example this guy is getting "help" that the others didn't. Yea, I see your point, it's just explaining rules of the game. But then again, if the host wasn't doing that for the other players the day before it seems like an advantage.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from KGSoloman:

How is someone explaining the rules of the game an unfair advantage?.

there is a big difference between explaining the rules of the game to a player and making a player privy to a strategy they were unaware of. This player was lining up a soft plunge when the TD interrupted them to tell them to hard plunge and why.

32
#11 3 years ago

When things got so serious that you can't even chat during a league game is when I dropped out of league. It stopped being fun.

Pinball should be fun, not a drag. If you get bent out of shape about this situation, you need to seriously reconsider your life priorities.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

If you get bent out of shape about this situation, you need to seriously reconsider your life priorities.

Jesus talk aboot over dramatic.

#13 3 years ago

Shut the league down

#14 3 years ago

Local players will usually remind people "No coaching please". We've never actually penalized anyone for it, but if you're on a tournament game you shouldn't get a pass on the rules just because you're not a top tier player.

11
#15 3 years ago

If the league rules don't say anything about it, then anything goes. If it bothers you, lobby to get the rules changed. I wouldn't want to be in a league where people couldn't help each other freely.

While we're on the subject of rules, sentences should start with a capital letter.

#16 3 years ago

As a new player trying to get into leagues and tournaments (played in my first a few weeks ago), I feel there is nothing wrong with this at all, and actually encourage it. I don't even have the strategy memorized on the games I own, much less those I've only heard of, and am laying my hands on for the first time.

I see this hobby's leagues the same as any other, such as bowling. I can tell you all day to stand right foot on the 15 board and shoot for the 9 board, oh and if it leads center on the down lane tracker, then shift a couple boards to adjust. You still have to make the shot.

And ultimately, I see it as a benefit to having "a middle ranked player" get better in the league. Not to mention, most people, if they feel that they are getting beat simply because they "don't know strategy of the machines", usually don't want to keep coming to leagues. I personally wouldn't feel too good about myself, or my ranking, if I'm consistently beating up on someone who doesn't know what they are doing. My .02.

-3
#17 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If you are gonna lose a league match because a player gets such basic advice, you probably aren't gonna do too well anyway. That "advice" might have cost you 5 million points on a good day. Find your own coach.

wow, alot of assumptions here.
first off, this did not cause me to lose the match (far from it).
second off, this isnt "basic advice" this is a strategy related to one particular table and its unique rules
third off, "you probably arent gonna do too well anyway" is incorrect. nothing about the scores was even mentioned in the original post, i perform very well on a consistent basis and this incident had no bearing on my overall standings. also is doing well the only reason one should play in a league? if you arent doing well should you care less about what happens during league? im confused as to how you could assume that this one incident is an indicator of overall performance???
fourth off, if you know so much about pinball you should know that the letters in film could be worth 8 million, be the last shot needed before multiball is ready, etc... whether this advice led to the only points the player scored or pushed them into the the grand champ spot is not the issue.
fifth off, get your own coach??? ummmm no thank you i am very pleased with my pinball abilities and do not need one. nice try though.

#18 3 years ago

Our league is fairly casual, but we talk strategy all the time during games. Heck, I had a match on Thursday night where I pointed out to my opponent that his multiball was lit because he didn't know the game that well. It cost me a point in the end, but it was far more fun being social and seeing good play.

If it's a tournament, don't talk to anybody. If it's league night, I guess just respect what the specific player wants, but I prefer a more laid back and relaxed environment.

36
#19 3 years ago

I wouldn't want to play in some lame league that people would get upset that another player got some hints.

Put your man pants on.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from maffewl:

I see this hobby's leagues the same as any other, such as bowling. I can tell you all day to stand right foot on the 15 board and shoot for the 9 board, oh and if it leads center on the down lane tracker, then shift a couple boards to adjust. You still have to make the shot.

This is really the equivalent of telling someone what to do before the game, then they implement that during the game, which is fine.

If you're coaching something in the middle of a pinball game, many things can be happening at once that they would normally have to think about, and if you're doing the thinking for them (i.e. "You're 2 shots away from Total Annihilation on the left loop! Stop shooting saucers!") you're taking the mental task of tracking game progress off the player so they just need to think about physical shots. A more apt analogy is the middle-of-the-road player who knows the pro gets to bowl with bumpers while the middle-of-the-road player who isn't as social doesn't.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

If you get bent out of shape about this situation, you need to seriously reconsider your life priorities.

how can you assume im "bent out of shape" im not upset, thrilled, or even emotionally invested in this situation. it happened, i wanted to see what you guys thought. end of story. but hey, i guess it wouldnt be pinside without some assumed emotional roller coaster associated with every trivial thing.

#22 3 years ago

I would give advice to a new player or a player who's just bad at playing but if they are a really good player who could easily win i wouldent tell them because that would be unfair to his oppenents.

12
#23 3 years ago

I'm glad our league is easy going enough that I can't even see this ever being questioned. We are just a group of friends getting together to have fun and play some pinball. If it were so serious that we couldn't help each other out while playing, then I do not think I'd want to be a part of it.

Save the hardcore rules and discipline for the "real" tournaments. Leagues should be fun first, competition second. At least in my opinion.

#24 3 years ago

We don't allow coaching at all and everyone has big boy pants. They just don't need their hands held.

If players are skilled enough to effectively use the strategy others provide they should be coming up with it themselves.

23
#25 3 years ago

This is a job for Carl. He gives pinball lessons for $55 an hour. He will teach you all the pinball skills and included sandwiches and Shasta. Better sign up fast, his spots are limited.

-1
#26 3 years ago
Quoted from maffewl:

I can tell you all day to stand right foot on the 15 board and shoot for the 9 board, oh and if it leads center on the down lane tracker, then shift a couple boards to adjust. You still have to make the shot.

That's a good comparison to a very simple EM only league I guess; "Knock down the 10 targets." Comparing bowling to pinball is way off.

#27 3 years ago

I say help the player out as much as possible and make them a better player... What's the harm ?

The people who get upset about something like this are the same people who get upset when their favorite sports team loses and act like a jerk

It's not if you win or lose its about the journey. Same people like Rocky 2 better than the original Rocky . They just don't get it ... He "won" in the first one

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from bayoubilly70:

They just don't get it ... He "won" in the first one

Wow...how inspirational.

#29 3 years ago

I really don't get why stuff like this is a no no. If that's the rule fine, but why does it have to be? I usually don't coach another player while they are playing because they didn't ask for the help. If they did, I'd help them assuming the rules allowed it. I have also been in tournaments before where I coached my opponent on a game and I ended up losing to that person on said game because of the information I gave them. Not a big deal. If the help wasn't asked for, I get it, but helping someone understand a game if they want the help, I don't care if it's mid ball, I don't see the issue with someone answering their question.

its like you're trying to keep pinball a secret so people don't get better than you.

Now if I'm in a close 7 game matchup with someone and they ask me for help, I might suddenly forget how to play, but I'm not gonna get all pissy if someone blurts out what shot they want to hit next.

If you ever get to the levels of tournaments where a rule like this would actually matter, it's still not needed as all those players literally know every game inside and out.

#30 3 years ago

When it comes down to it, the league's leaders should set the precedent and it should be followed by everyone. If people don't like it, they can start or join a different league. If you join a league where coaching is allowed, you're going to have to accept that. If coaching is not allowed, that's fine, take it upon yourself to know your games better. Personally, I prefer a more casual approach where coaching is allowed as long as it's in the spirit of good sportsmanship and not to help someone beat someone else (to affect standings or just settle personal grudges).

#31 3 years ago

I think the TD needs to be reminded of no active coaching.

It is one think if a players reached out to ask for rules in between balls. It is another think if someone actively coaches a player on what to do.

Our league has competition at the start of each night and casual play at the end. Competition is for competing. Casual play is for fun and coaching along with dollar games. If your league is an IFPA sanctioned league there should be NO coaching during competition (allowed between balls but still in poor taste if the TD is only coaching some members).

Sounds like you just need to get some clarification on coaching rules for your league. Any good league is going to go through some growing pains and changes.

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

This is really the equivalent of telling someone what to do before the game, then they implement that during the game, which is fine.
If you're coaching something in the middle of a pinball game, many things can be happening at once that they would normally have to think about, and if you're doing the thinking for them (i.e. "You're 2 shots away from Total Annihilation on the left loop! Stop shooting saucers!") you're taking the mental task of tracking game progress off the player so they just need to think about physical shots. A more apt analogy is the middle-of-the-road player who knows the pro gets to bowl with bumpers while the middle-of-the-road player who isn't as social doesn't.

While I can see your point, I somewhat disagree. Maybe the bowling analogy wasn't the best, and it seems my point was lost in it. Essentially, I would agree with you that if a player knows the rules, knows the strategy, and you interrupt their thinking to tell them what to do, that's a no-no. But I don't see that as a no-no from a rules perspective, I see it due to etiquette. Let the person play the game how they want if they understand it. However, for me personally, I don't have all of these pins and their rules memorized, so I will tell anyone who's listening before hand to please help (if allowed). That's middle of the game and completely appropriate in my book. Again, I don't care what the sport or activity is, I wouldn't feel like my ranking is worth a pile of donkey crap if I beat a bunch of people who didn't know what they were doing.

Edit: The bowling analogy was meant to express that you still have to "make the shot" even if you are told what to do, not the timing at which the coaching happens.

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Wow...how inspirational.

You dah man !

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#34 3 years ago

I guess it completely depends on the type of league. Some leagues are hard core, and others are more casual. I personally wouldn't want to be in a league where people get all bent out of shape about stuff. Heck, I've been known to give players advice that I'm PLAYING AGAINST. "Hey dude, multiball is ready at the scoop!" League should first and foremost be all about having fun. I'm competitive and I definitely like to win, but to me it's more about the camaraderie than the actual competition.

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from maffewl:

I don't have all of these pins and their rules memorized, so I will tell anyone who's listening before hand to please help (if allowed).

man these leagues are crazy

Quoted from gweempose:

Heck, I've been known to give players advice that I'm PLAYING AGAINST. "Hey dude, multiball is ready at the scoop!"

I do that to people I'm playing all the time...they get so pissed but it's hilarious.

#36 3 years ago

It just comes down to respecting the league & players, and doing what is in the rules/spirit of that league.

Some leagues have written rules against coaching; others are more casual and allow degrees of coaching.

I'm OK if after the game is over someone talks strategy, "heh, next week you should try this...". But actively coaching during an active ball would annoy a lot of players. The exception to that might be a kid starting out.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

I'm glad our league is easy going enough that I can't even see this ever being questioned. We are just a group of friends getting together to have fun and play some pinball. If it were so serious that we couldn't help each other out while playing, then I do not think I'd want to be a part of it.
Save the hardcore rules and discipline for the "real" tournaments. Leagues should be fun first, competition second. At least in my opinion.

This is pretty much how I feel about it! In our league we have always been pretty relaxed, and we have had many sessions were there is a ball save and the player walks away...someone yells out ball save to help the other person out...I think that is fine...unsolicited help or asking strategy between balls is fine... I am not as competitive as some, but I don't think that another player should tell a player what to do in the middle of a league game while they are playing...

Phoebe

#38 3 years ago

I'm pretty sure this conversation is about something I did last night at league - if not, go figure the exact same thing happened last night at the Austin Tuesday Jam league.

If so -you should have brought it up at league (not sure who the OP is)! I had no idea this was bothering anyone. There certainly isn't a rule about this in the league rules at this time.

This was me doing the coaching and replay with the player in question, and we've known one another for quite a while and often play this way- Additionally, I coach just about everyone I play with and encourage the other senior players to do the same. My opinion is that it's not that serious and everyone should be helping everyone else improve, but that's me. I'm very curious to hear what other people think though.

I'd be very flattered if people think playing in my group is an advantage. I certainly take the time to ask new players if they know how to play the game before each one we play and provide general guidelines on strategies as well as machine-specific information like tilt sensitivity. As for everyone else, I try to make it around and talk to everyone but feel free to ask me before starting or between balls if you ever have questions.

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

man these leagues are crazy

I should've mentioned, this is a typical league night for us.

Wild_and_Crazy_(resized).png

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from SHOOTTHEPYRAMID:

how can you assume im "bent out of shape" im not upset, thrilled, or even emotionally invested in this situation. it happened, i wanted to see what you guys thought. end of story. but hey, i guess it wouldnt be pinside without some assumed emotional roller coaster associated with every trivial thing.

you have 10 posts and know of the social dynamics of pinside already? i call dupe account!
either way rules to the league should be set up and followed, but a more casual atmosphere will most likely yield a better environment and grow better players

#41 3 years ago

I'm wondering if people actually know the rules of their league that well? I would have no idea of this is allowed or not in mine.

This is just another classic pinball social situation that divides people.
On one hand you have the people that aren't very good, and they're never going to win anything, so they're "just playing for fun...aw shucks & tarnation!"
Then on the other hand you have champions with pride in what they do.

Well actually it's probably just aboot how much alcohol gets consumed

#42 3 years ago

There should definitely be a sub-forum for leagues and tournaments.

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from Law:

There should definitely be a sub-forum for leagues and tournaments.

It's called tiltforums.com

#44 3 years ago

I give everyone advice on the pins I know the rules of. I think our league is a little different though. I want other players to learn the games and enjoy them versus worrying about what place I am in. I struggle with rules on the majority of the games myself and I find that if everyone is more honest about what to shoot for everyone gets better and enjoys their time. Pinball is fun, competition is fun too, but don't let it be the only reason your playing.

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from SHOOTTHEPYRAMID:

how can you assume im "bent out of shape" im not upset, thrilled, or even emotionally invested in this situation. it happened, i wanted to see what you guys thought. end of story. but hey, i guess it wouldnt be pinside without some assumed emotional roller coaster associated with every trivial thing.

Funny that a relative newbie ( < month) would make comments like this... dupe account?

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from InfiniteLives:

you have 10 posts and know of the social dynamics of pinside already?

pssssssssh acting as if a baby couldnt figure out the social dynamics of pinside within four seconds

law, the reason i didnt bring it up last night is because i genuinely dont care. you know i have no problem being vocal about everything so the fact that i didnt bring it up should show just how important this is to me. i thought it would be an interesting point of discussion online.i will now go hang myself with a belt because i am unable to stomach the atrocities committed against me personally during a pinball league.::sarcasm::

#47 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

On one hand you have the people that aren't very good, and they're never going to win anything, so they're "just playing for fun...aw shucks & tarnation!"
Then on the other hand you have champions with pride in what they do.

See I take lots of pride in my play and play a shotload each day to increase my knowledge of every game I play or expect to play. I am a very very competitive person, but I'm also an adult. The best thing above competitive pinball is there there is pretty much no financial reason to do it. It's almost completely for pride.

That being said, I respect the rules too. If that tournament calls for no coaching, fair enough. You won't hear a peep out of me. But if the rules say nothing, or it's not communicated before the tournament starts, and someone I'm playing says, "why is this whirlwind beeping at me after draining out of multiball?" I'm gonna say, "because you can restart it at the left scoop". Or I'll keep my mouth shut (especially if there's a sweet trophy on the line). Haha

#48 3 years ago
Quoted from SHOOTTHEPYRAMID:

law, the reason i didnt bring it up last night is because i genuinely dont care. you know i have no problem being vocal about everything so the fact that i didnt bring it up should show just how important this is to me. i thought it would be an interesting point of discussion online.i will now go hang myself with a belt because i am unable to stomach the atrocities committed against me personally during a pinball league.::sarcasm::

Still not sure who this is, heh. With that comment-maaaaybe.

I'm also very interested, glad it's a conversation. Let us discuss.

#49 3 years ago

I've never played competitively, just at home with friends... But...

If this is what pinball leagues are about... Nitpicking every little thing, then I want no part of that. Some people are just wound up way too tight.

You said yourself it didn't affect your score or ranking. Why bring it up at all?

Pinball should be FUN... End of story.

#50 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

That being said, I respect the rules too. If that tournament calls for no coaching, fair enough. You won't hear a peep out of me. But if the rules say nothing, or it's not communicated before the tournament starts, and someone I'm playing says, "why is this whirlwind beeping at me after draining out of multiball?" I'm gonna say, "because you can restart it at the left scoop".

I get a kick out of saying "The machine is operating as expected!" when someone doesn't understand why something happened or thinks something went wrong, then I'm happy to chat about the game afterwards. But I'm one of those nazis who sucks the fun out of everything because I try to adhere to IFPA rules at a competition

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