not really a tourney game. flippers are still too weak out the box. skill shot is worth way too much. a single made skill shot can win the game against someone having long ball time with all 3. more of a beauty piece IMO.

I think it would take forever to play with highly skilled players.

-Mark

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You won't, terrible game for tournament

Sorry, but as a 20-year tournament player, you're going to have to back up your opinions a little bit better.

Flippers weak is a ridiculous argument because you can turn them up high enough to blow out the backpanel.

Skill shot worth too much also is subjective, and I don't agree with it (otherwise I wouldn't've made it worth so much, duh). I'd rather have a valuable skill shot than yet another stupid one that isn't worth what you make for shooting a mode shot.

Plays too long? That's a new one; besides that is easily adjustable.

AFAIK the only legit complaint is that Wizard is still random atm, and that will change.

IMNSHO, there have been many MANY way worse tournament games than any I've done.

Since it hasn't been mentioned, does it have tournament settings?

I'm gonna guess yes.

Only immediate issues I see are with the lock mechanism releasing multiple balls and the inability to set extra balls to zero (unless I missed that in the 2.0 update). Can't seem to dial in my lock mechanism in 100% no matter how hard I try.

Too easy? Pull the center post, outlines wide open.

If you lose from missing skills shots... Play Better!

I think it was the PAPA folks that mentioned that they are even considering allowing the saved balls to be used if they are earned since it is part of the game. I think that would need to be determined before using it. It will not be long now with the code in the current state.

A saved ball (via TOTO or No Place Like Home) is different from an extra ball. As far as tournaments are concerned, that is the same "ball in play". Other games have similar features, such as Johnny Mnemonic's virtual kickback on the left outlane or NBA Fastbreak's "Million Dollar Shot".

Sounds like Karl is reporting he cannot shut off extra balls in 2.0 software, and I don't have any info about that. The ability to use a virtual lock for Emerald City seems like it would a plus, to help dodge the multiple-release problem; again I don't have any info about whether such an option exists in software or is planned.

Wizard of Oz was used in the C Division final at PAPA 16 last August.

I think it will be a fantastic tournament game, just imagine the tension of a player needing to get their ball back and going for TNPLH or TOTO.

The game has is all, strategy, stacking, risk/reward, and as far as it being too easy, any game can be made too easy or too hard depending on setting and set up, and WOZ has as much or more variability for those as any game ever made.

And where did that flippers too weak thing come from, that hasn't been an issue for over a year, even the real haters gave up on that one

It **is** a fantastic tournament game. We had one for the final round of Festiflip October 2013 tourney in France. Seeing skilled players dealing with this pin was quite a sight!

I think now that 2.0 is out you will see it being used more and more.

Ummm no, that was Bowen. Keith was the other one commenting. Or was that sarcasm that I missed?

Sounded more like "maybe Keith can answer this one" to me.

Sounds more like "Dave needs to learn how to read normal conversation"

Widen out lanes, take away center post. GOOD LUCK!

Nope, WOZ isn't planned for the Louisville tournament.

Most people are basing this on the those little side tournaments we've had over the last year where some games seemed to take 10+ minutes.

Of course, these games were usually setup shallow, slow, normal outlanes, yada yada yada

When all the issues are worked out. Seems to be getting closer to that point. I do beleive with all it has going on it will be a long journey during tournament play, with the good players. I have spent a lot of time on woz, granted the pitch of the game I have spent most of my time on was not steep enough and it played slow, I am not a supreme player but my ball times were loooooong. It was old old code as well but that doesn't change the shots. With a steeper pitch it would of shortened my ball times I'm sure but the good players at a steeper pitch I feel will be better then I was at a flatter pitch. I would play the first ball until I got a replay and would turn it over to my son to play out the game. I need to play one at a steeper pitch to see the differance. Has TZ or IJ ever been a tournament pin??

It is in the rotation in all Grand Rapids league nights and monthly tournaments. Besides the extra ball issue, I see it as being a good tournament game. And I'm a hater on non-tournament viable games.

Most places that have a WoZ on location are way to dark to enable the game to be used in a tourney anyhow due to the lack of lighting in the flipper area and the constant strobing of the inserts. Hopefully the fixes in the 2.0 code have fixed this major problem. Thanks for addressing it Keith and Ted.

Looking towards playing a WoZ with 2.0 code in it this weekend to experience the changes.

Would it have even been considered for the A Division final? If not, why?

-Mark

For newer machines, at least at the regional show tournaments I have been to, their games seem to last forever when it comes down close to the finals of A Division. Perhaps the outlane posts are set too liberally, or not removed, in some cases. Also, although this is not a newer machine, I hate seeing Addams in the same position...marathon four-player games. This could come down to the same reason I just mentioned though.

I like seeing the most skilled players playing older and more obscure games...like Genesis.

-Mark

I used it for the Maryland Pinball Championship in Jan 2014. Running 1.24.
I did not hear any complaints.

I don't see any reason to bar it based on play time. The PAPA videos with TZ in them are usually a marathon and TZ pops up all the time.

The only reason to not use it is if there are issues turning off extra balls, no non-random tournament setting, mechanical issues with the lock, etc...

i wasnt aware of the flipper strength that could be increased. i have played a few on location only. maybe the owners arent aware they can increase? i guess i was speaking from my own experience playing it some in league and on location, didn't mean to sound negative. Not all operators know how to set up machines properly and this is a major problem with machines in the wild and that being said can curb opinions one way or another. obviously owning the machine and being tech savy as well as a good player and having said machine setup to its full potential it would be easier to comment on the subject in a more data collected manner.

I have played four different Wizard of Oz machines and have never found an issue with the flipper strength except during this one round where the flippers are extra weak on purpose, I forget what the round is called, something about weak flippers.

WOZ was used in the PAPA 16 world championships C division Finals and it was chosen and played. That was last august. Had very early code in it.

with the 2.0 code I think it could be in any tournament moving forward.

WOZ was also used in Pinburgh 2014.

Where is this "RGP2"? Google turns up nothing but protein sequences and the original RGP

I believe this is it:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.games.pinball

Not all the games used in Pinburgh 2014 were under camera. There is no competitive footage of WOZ yet.

i meant RGP, not the "2" ..sorry about that. typo.

The strength of every coil in WOZ (flippers, pops, kickers) can be adjusted--not just stronger, but weaker too. For example, WEAKENING the Munchkinland flipper a bit makes that mini-pf a LOT harder--no more easy double loops for shots that aren't perfect. And you don't want to make the flippers so strong to cause airballs and break plastics. But the game is very configurable. Changing the castle flipper strength really changes the action there too.

My throne room kick-out was sending the ball straight down the middle sometimes. It was so nice having the option to change the coil power to prevent this (rather than bending the metal bracket).

I ended up lowering the power to give a nice consistent feed to the right flipper. If I find this makes the game too easy I can always increase the power to make the kick-out uncontrollable.

Doesn't the 3.0 code address the "random" aspects to make WOZ tourney friendly now?

Yep. Do you think it was coincidence it came out the day before Pinburgh?

Glinda derandomised, Wizard derandomised, Crystal Ball modes derandomised. Virtual locks all around.

Still plenty of physical randomness in WOz, mind. Tournament players seem to mind that less.

I think you would see 4 people scratching their heads. Just watch Karl's videos on youlube.

Tournaments on this game must be crazy, there are just so many angles to approach the game.

Agreed. Would love to see it.

it would be fascinating to see how different top players would approach it in a tournament setting, it is very much a risk/reward game, do you try to stack things and risk getting nothing, or go for the easier payoffs.

Imagine on ball 3 a player drains trailing in points, but activates TOTO or TNPLH, has the chance to get back in the game. I think the tension would be incredible!!

Keep in mind that it's in A bank for qualifying, and thus -- based on the two PAPA's I've been to -- will not be in the A finals.