(Topic ID: 148474)

When Will The Stern Bubble Burst?

By thundergod76

8 years ago


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  • 472 posts
  • 144 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by erak
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xtheblackknightx.
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    #156 8 years ago
    Quoted from Mike_J:

    The pricing is absolutely out of hand.
    Do operators really still buy NIB machines outside of the Pro? What does the ROI look like on something like that? I would love to see the average ROI on a WOZ.

    Yes.
    Although shocking, I just played a Metallica LE (not premium) on a route.
    Surprised the hell out of me.

    #164 8 years ago
    Quoted from thearcadegeek:

    Agreed, but people that collect things are obsessive about them. Watch this video and tell me if you don't think these guys are enjoying what they have... Link is safe for work.
    » YouTube video

    Makes pinball collecting look not just normal, but extremely exciting. Watching a washer clean clothes? This literally is watching paint dry. Maybe its mesmerizing, and I tested the theory. It did not work for me. These collectors would probably brown stain their pants at the complexity of pinball machines. Not all collectors are obsessive. I had my collection storage for 10 years alone.

    #177 8 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    That's astounding to me. That anybody would still have a NIB game waiting for the "moment" to sell them for a profit. That "moment" is long gone and/or declining. Max profits would have been 1-2 years ago. Ac/dc BIB and Tron LE's, two of the only one's left with a "profit" have come down substantially, and rightfully so.
    The whole "LE" short supply pinball collectible is a joke.

    "Long gone" is not quite accurate.
    The same thing with max profits.
    More like "it comes in phases".
    Alive and kicking right now, plenty of opportunities, and its not a "fluke".

    Example:
    Joystix Amusements in YOUR home state.
    Tron LE - $15k NIB
    http://www.joystixamusements.com/details.asp?ID=984

    It happens more than you think, not just with Stern games over the past 2 decades, which many times were exceptions from this manufacturer.
    The same thing happened with MM, BBB, and many other collectible titles when the prospects revealed themselves.
    One NIB BBB went for $24k alone.
    Especially when ANY game was overstock, or failed at sales, because sometimes those titles were excellent "prospects".

    I could go back as far as the early 1980s with examples such as Black Knight that a old "time travel" warehouse had 5X NIB BK, and a bunch of other titles. They do still exist even to this day.

    People/businesses/owners watch the market, and offer them for sale, when they believe "it is time".
    If not, they shelve them again for another day when the economy returns, if the timing is bad or the market is offset.

    Whether you agree with it or not is inconsequential.
    Whether I agree with the policy is inconsequential.
    People can spend their money however they want.
    People make the money from the sales, that are patient, and a LOT of it in many cases.

    This is however completely different from people who buy their games, take them out of the box, play them vigorously, and expect to sell them for $1-2k more 2 years later. This is happening all the time right now, especially with justification of "mods".
    Normally, there is a wake up call for most at some point, and sooner than later.
    Pinball is not the best "investment" strategy for retirement, nor flipping "new" games when a person tires of the game or hobby.

    #235 8 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    "Innovate or die"?
    Nobody wants to buy Nib EM's anymore and that's what Stern does, make new pins. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

    So what is Whoa Nellie?
    a NIB EM hybrid, which people bought anyway.
    Stern made that machine as well.
    All for the starting price of $6k! (thereabouts or so, dependent on distributor)

    #319 8 years ago
    Quoted from BanditBoy:

    Pinball collecting is now a rich mans pastime, dunno if it's the same in the states but over here the prices have gone through the roof.

    I have heard that statement for over 26 years now.
    It is just not true, even overseas.
    I lived abroad for decades.
    Just become a CARPGP.
    Hunt for the offers.
    Plenty of choices are available including EM, early SS, and DMD unless you only want to buy NIB or "Top 10" machines in collector condition.

    #320 8 years ago

    Although some people might not "like him", Gary Stern knows the industry and the market EXTREMELY WELL. Most new collectors do not know his history, and it is a very unique long one. He sat on Harry Williams knee as a child, stood side by side with his father, and watched as he was directly involved with pinball. He has friendships/relationships of every major manufacturer of machines for the last 50 years. People that believe he is "running pinball into the ground" need to do some historical reading.

    The only time Stern will truly end is when gets tired of the bull#!@$ and no longer cares for pinball. He has taken breaks before. Maybe then another will carry the torch, maybe not.

    #346 8 years ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    The rule sets on Sterns (mainly Lyman) make the games superior to 90's BW games. Also there is definitely innovation in RGB inserts and lighting. Play STLE, ACDC premium or MET premium compared to any old BW and it's such a superior experience.

    Try a finalized Road Show "code experience".
    They ran out of EPROM space and could have kept going.
    There were a number of features and about 10? additional modes they wanted to include via ideas from Pat Lawlor, but could not do it, and were removed from the ROMs after prototype.
    This is just one example.

    Some of the reasons are limitations of technology (such as LEDs and electronic firmware design) not the software designers.
    Many of the same designers (such as Sheats) are still doing games today.
    They work with the technology available to the best of their ability and the TIME they have to do the coding itself.

    #355 8 years ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    Im out of the loop on this....additional code?

    You have to go back over 20+ years to revisit what was original concepted in dissecting the game.
    This game at the time was meant to be an "ultimate" pinball design in terms of features (at least at the time), as it was trying to take innovations used from many titles and put them all together in one machine.

    The only reason I mentioned this is I had very early prototype EPROMS in my RoadShow when I purchased it in the early 2000s.
    The code was completely different, and had various features that were left out of production, such as selecting your starting city.
    I mentioned this in the RS owner posting, but I am still digging through my parts to find them for Clay.

    #356 8 years ago
    Quoted from cal50:

    Meh.
    Pinball is suppose to be fun and technology is no guarantee of that.
    Skeeball and big ball bowlers are far from cutting edge but most places with the space to host them, they get a lot of use and not a lot of cutting edge electronics or code involved. If new tech can be incorporated into a game and its fun to play its all good but tech alone does not guarantee jack chit.

    Just a bit of add on for those that are focused exclusively on technology.
    I like darts, which is a good comparison to things like pinball and pool on locations.
    The "modern" conception of the board was established in the early 1900s
    Technology for scoring may be different, but the games are still the same.
    What has really improved in this case?
    Is it less "fun"?
    Is it more "fun"?
    Essentially the tech made keeping track of score easier.
    Hosted in millions of locations all over the world.

    I will take my EM Fireball over a poorly designed DMD game any day.
    Getting ready to turn 44 years old now, Happy Birthday!

    #376 8 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    Well sometimes. I've seen people with room for only 3, and they own MM, AFM and MB. WTF? 3 of the same game. They don't like things that are different.

    Many new collectors do not know the difference anyway. MB is a little different in layout. AFM and MM are the same game, with minor differences outside of theme.

    Given time, they might diversify, or they just sell out and move on.

    #385 8 years ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    Is there more info someplace on what these modes, etc. were?

    When my original game was purchased, I scoured every newsgroup, website, and design notes regarding the differences recorded on the EPROMs.
    We are talking about a time where the internet is not what is was today.
    I recorded most of the differences for interest to do research.

    Nada. Zilch.

    I still have no idea how a game could slip from the factory with this kind of mistake in software, but I do know how the game ended up in my hands, which explains a part of the story.

    Revision history of the ROMS does not show design of the game changes from the prototype software.

    It starts with the first release of L-1, not the P-3 (which assumingly was the THIRD revision of the prototype code)
    The ROMS are somewhere in a plastic tupperware container with static electric ROM sleeves.

    Unless Dwight, Ted, or Pat Lawlor come forward with design history notes, the only references will come from these ROMs.
    At this point, I am not even sure they would remember all the details.
    As stated, the P-3 although functional, are UNUSEABLE for production games and not all the finished code modes work right, the game loses track of the balls, and other issues.
    I pulled the ROMS pretty early and used L-5 when the time came, never updated to L-6.
    Proto Code would need to be merged with L-6 using updated memory chips and somebody would need to reverse engineer the integration.
    I am not a software designer, I am a tech.

    This is what I am dealing with here to find them, but at least the parts are organized.

    0ceafa3cecb266e0a816f6af6fce1744dd8fb557_(resized).jpg0ceafa3cecb266e0a816f6af6fce1744dd8fb557_(resized).jpg

    #388 8 years ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    I know someone who is thinking of p-roc'ing the game to 'fix' some of the issues and to expand it, such as adding new modes, letting you pick a start city, letting you pick the next city you want to go to, etc. So, was curious what ideas were originally thought of that were not included.

    I will make a list, and post it on the RS owner's listing.

    #402 8 years ago
    Quoted from Sticky:

    I think your darts comparison is flawed. The dart board is not a machine. It is not a good comparison just because similar locals have dart boards and pinball machines.
    A pinball machine employs technology to begin with. A dart board is static.

    Ok, then go back to EM pinball machines, like I said at the end. Many are still more fun than modern DMDs, and have "gadgets" as well with no advanced tech.

    Ever play Knock Out (GTB,1950)?

    It makes Stern's WWE look like it has its pants around its ankles being spanked the whole time.
    You can play "multiball" if you wish on Knock Out as well via the ball lift if you so choose.

    #405 8 years ago
    Quoted from pinballophobe:

    I wonder if they could ever electronically pair 2 machines together and have a head to head "pinball" battle between 2 players. Where you can steal the players progress, multiplier, or regress them, etc

    It has already been done, not that it is a bad idea to "bring back".
    New players would like it.

    That is Joust from WMS, 1983.
    DIRECT head to head versus "linked".
    Linked is not as social.

    This game has many of the features you just requested.
    Partly why the game is so collectible, other than low production and difficulty finding parts.
    Too bad few games sold really well during that period, could have made the game more available today.

    #426 8 years ago
    Quoted from pinballophobe:

    The thing with stern and pinball is. This is a very unique situation where stern really has no competition. There is no doubt that woz stands out next to any stern. There just Isnt enough to JJP, heighway, etc games out there to make stern look "old".
    Until there is legit competition. Stern doesn't need to be at the forefront of innovation. They can let the other companies do the heavy lifting and just piggy back off them

    There is a small danger in that statement. Operators just keep what they have and do not buy new machines. It has happened before from multiple manufacturers. Bally and Williams made the same mistake.

    The past always seems to be so quickly forgotten.

    #445 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Part of the appeal of pinball is not staring at a screen. Sure, dmds have pixels, but you glance at them and focus on the game.

    Overlooked video modes in almost all pinball games from 1991-1998. Integral part of the game.
    Some have mutiple, unless you decide to cancel or drink a beer while they time out.

    #451 8 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Video modes last the better part of what 20 seconds? On a 5 -20 minute game that isn't exactly a large amount of time. Some are fun such as FT, BSD, and BR. Most are repetitive and completely not worth playing BF, Tommy.

    Unless you are trying to use them for scoring or extra balls.
    Good examples outweigh the bad ones.

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