I think this is interesting to think about in light of the Alien playfield artwork released today. I am a big fan of Aurich's design but one of the things he mentioned was having to balance elements from each of the two movies Alien and Aliens. There are also sections of the playfield which show the very claustrophobic atmosphere of being in the ship and other areas which attempt to recreate the expansive feeling of being alone in space.

Now, visualize an Alien/Aliens game built on the P3. Even if the designer chose to go with just static playfield artwork, imagine the possibilities if that artwork could change from a design showing the inside of the ship in Alien, with its claustrophobic corridors and passageways, to another background which depicts the exterior surface of the planet from Aliens. No need to try to cram multiple aspects from the two movies into the one playfield artwork design.

Add to this the ability to have dynamic artwork elements on the playfield and you get an idea of why the P3 platform is truly mind-blowing.

Ok, then go back to EM pinball machines, like I said at the end. Many are still more fun than modern DMDs, and have "gadgets" as well with no advanced tech.

Ever play Knock Out (GTB,1950)?

It makes Stern's WWE look like it has its pants around its ankles being spanked the whole time.
You can play "multiball" if you wish on Knock Out as well via the ball lift if you so choose.

Wouldn't it be nicer to exploit the jackpot during multiball. jus sayin'.

I wonder if they could ever electronically pair 2 machines together and have a head to head "pinball" battle between 2 players. Where you can steal the players progress, multiplier, or regress them, etc

It has already been done, not that it is a bad idea to "bring back".
New players would like it.

That is Joust from WMS, 1983.
DIRECT head to head versus "linked".
Linked is not as social.

This game has many of the features you just requested.
Partly why the game is so collectible, other than low production and difficulty finding parts.
Too bad few games sold really well during that period, could have made the game more available today.

I saw two NBA fastbreak machines paired which I thought was very cool. It didn't allow you to do exactly what you are saying but linking machines has been done.

NBA Fastbreak

NBA
Eh....
Fast break I think

It is actually a very good comparison for this discussion. You need to look outside your pinball experience.
1931 Coin-op pinball:gtb3111baffleball2_(resized).jpg
How much "technology" is in that pinball machine? In my book not very much, even for the time. Certainly as time has passed quite a bit of technology has been added but the basic premise is still there .. steel ball bouncing around inside a box.

Dart Boards have added technology over time, it is no longer just a cork board. Now there are electronic machines with automatic scoring for several types of games,.electronic_darts_event4_(resized).jpg

Certainly technology can be exciting and evolutionary (even revolutionary) but that does not mean it is "better" or more relevant. Darts has evolved but is still very much the same game with the addition of technology and people STILL play on cork boards. Pinball has evolved and yet there are many of us that still play older less "advanced" pins because they are still relevant. Now we face the question of how much further the technology needs to go.
I don't think more "traditional" pinball needs to be replaced when it could simply exist side by side with a newer style of game.

What I get with my older EMs that I don't with the newer games is a variety of flipper arrangements that make everyone unique in it's own way. Almost all games from the last 40+ years share basically the same lower playfield. You can change the art and rules as much as you want and keep adding LEDs and LCDs, but it is not changing physical gameplay very much. Geometry isn't as much a factor any more.

I think the big difference in darts vs pinball is pinball there are themes. Some are licensed and some are not.

But the essence is capturing the theme into the game experience and that's where technology and innovation comes into play

But also. Pinball for most. It's a 1 on 1 battle against yourself so the excitement is in changing the game.

Where in darts its a battle against someone else so the excitement is in the battle and the match up.

Just imagine how many ppl have a dart board at home vs ppl with pinball machines and the ratio of which gets used and the other one collects dust

On that note. When u see a dart board on location and a pinball machine on location. Which one has ppl playing solo and which one have 2 player going at it.

Like I said in my above post is they aren't changing the game. It is now basically the same dartboard with different colors and sounds.

The thing with stern and pinball is. This is a very unique situation where stern really has no competition. There is no doubt that woz stands out next to any stern. There just Isnt enough to JJP, heighway, etc games out there to make stern look "old".

Until there is legit competition. Stern doesn't need to be at the forefront of innovation. They can let the other companies do the heavy lifting and just piggy back off them

I wasn't refering to Stern or the competition in general. They all use basically the same three inch flippers in the same location now shooting at straight on shots. If something needs to change IMO, it is that.

Normally I would say 'blame Canada, but in this case I think we have to blame the europeans for the "italian bottom"

dupe post

like this?

italian_bottom_(resized).jpg

I strongly disagree. I think darts is pretty much figured out. You are not going to see the large differences between a dart boards that you do between pinball machines.

I mean it's a pretty absurd correlation. They are not even remotely the same thing. I don't see a top 100 dartboard ranking list because they are uniform. Pinball machines are not as the entire gameplay changes based on the machine.

Exactly.

Equating pinball and darts makes absolutely no sense.

I was equating the modern pinball playfield to a dartboard.

Nba fast break. I think.

You said :

I showed you that darts can in fact be more than a static board, they can be a "machine" that employs technology. I also showed you that pinball did not always employ technology but has evolved with the use of technology. People still enjoy playing darts with a static board even though a more technologically advanced option is available. People still enjoy playing flipperless pins even though a more technologically advanced option is available.

No dart board "Ranking" because the board is uniform??? seriously??? WTF does that have to do with the enjoyment of the game? Tell the 500,000 players in the World Dart Federation that they need different dart boards layouts for the game to be interesting. Maybe being "figured out" is a good thing not bad.

So back to pinball machines, you won't buy Stern because they are not being innovative but I don't see WOZ or Mulitmorphic in your collection, why not buy them if innovation is so important? I see a couple pins that in no way could be considered ground breaking or revolutionary ... is it possible that you own them simply because they are enjoyable to play? Isn't that enough and shouldn't we have the option to buy new machines that are fun to play BECAUSE they are not jammed full of useless or superfluous technology. I urge companies to build better and more advanced pins but I'm not going to bust Stern's balls if they don't.

Just because you add electronic scoring to darts doesn't change the way the game is played. It's still the same board design, it's still the same scoring, it's still the same game.

It's nothing like the difference from pinball machine to pinball machine. Nothing.

What does a ranking have to do with it? I'm pointing out that pinball machines vary to a great degree. Do dart boards? No, your board and my board are the exact same basic thing and so they always shall be.

You will never see the variation or innovation in darts that you will in pinball and this shouldn't even need to be explained to any adult.

Why isn't Multimorphic in my collection? Well, the fact Lexy Lightspeed isn't even out might have something to do with it. I'm also not plopping down $10k without playing it myself. I'm certainly watching the development closely because I find it exciting. No Stern titles hold my attention in the same manner.

Additionally, I already stated I won't pay a premium for a new Stern game when I can get games I find more enjoyable at a fraction of the cost. Stern isn't worth the money to me but something like Multimorphic or Heighway is if I'm going the NIB route.

People should enjoy whatever they want to enjoy but I don't see how this even remotely changes the fact Stern offers little innovation. Maybe they are fun for you or others and that's nice but it certainly doesn't push pinball forward or show any ingenuity or technological progress.

As stated, Stern has their market. If you find it fun give them your money. I won't because I find Stern boring and stuck in the past. Different strokes for different folks.

The game of the future.... here today!

Darts_(resized).jpg

There is a small danger in that statement. Operators just keep what they have and do not buy new machines. It has happened before from multiple manufacturers. Bally and Williams made the same mistake.

The past always seems to be so quickly forgotten.

Agreed

And adding LCD or color DMD is the same thing, just a different way to display the score ... so same scoring, same game.

As an adult I'll skip over the weak attempt to insult me. If you go back and reread you will find here was NEVER any attempt to say that dart boards are as varied as pinball machines, the comment discussed the addition of technology and lack of difference in the fundamental play of the game when it was added. The discussion is that same point can be said for pinball, increase in technology has not changed the fundamental play of the game.
The scoring display has changed from light bulbs to score reels to single line numeric to multi-line alpha-numeric and now LCD - same score different way to show it. LCD allows higher quality animations or video but that is really just part of the artwork it isn't part of playing pinball. On GOT (and others) there is a video game mode ..meh not pinball anymore.
The playfield has changed from steel pins to active/static rubber bumpers and went from no flippers to 6 and back to 2 and now varies from 2-4. Targets went from drop holes to active targets but the goal is the same, scoring points by hitting targets.
Targets have evolved to be more fully integrated with the theme, now they are called "toys" but the concept is the same, hit the target raise your score. So for more than 80 years pinball has had some big changes but in the last 40 years there has been very little in the way of real innovation and yet people still play pinball ... maybe it doesn't need to be pushed forward.

IMO Multimorphic is certainly innovative in overall concept but the "pinball" portion of the machine isn't really any different than what I described above. Sure, is it innovative to change the playfield to an LCD allows different art work to be displayed for different situations but that is an evolutionary change ... static display to dynamic ... but it doesn't change the fundamental concept of hitting a ball with flippers to score points. Will it be more fun? Will it become the next standard or will it become a footnote in the history of pinball? Who knows, only time will tell.

Why?
I have to say I have no idea what the majority of pinball customers (present or future) want from a pin. If most players want a more traditional machine would it be smart of Stern to try and shove technology down our throats? (I'm not talking about the internal architecture like SPIKE) MAYBE they know something about the industry, maybe they are happy to let boutique shops build these "innovative" pins because at the moment there isn't a huge demand. Maybe there isn't huge demand because players recognize that technology doesn't always enhance every experience.

WOW you have no clue dart leagues far bigger then pinball http://www.mmdl.org

Darts! Now that's a great way to burst their bubble.

I was at a bar that had both darts and a pinball machine.On dart night pinball machine was shut off.Way more dart dudes then pinball dudes.

thread is now titled "when will the dart board bubble burst"

Again I'm not asking about the ppl who play darts. Of course there are more dart leagues and players as opposed the pinball players and league. The sheer cost of pinball vs darts and how long darts have been around

I'm comparing the ratio of ownership vs use.

Yea cause delivering 1 game every 4 or 5 years is going to scare Stern lol. Get real bud. These small manufacturers have a LONG way to go to really cause Stern any heartache. If the Stern bubble bursts it wont be from outside forces..

Carguments are dead. Bring on the dartgument.

I like pinball.

download_(resized).jpg

well before the bubble bursts. I have a premium Bristle dart board, that's vintage late 80's i'll trade for an EM or early SS game. Hell, i'll even throw in my naked lady dart flights. (3 different sets)

Curious to see what happen with P3, but I for one have 0 interest in one. Part of the appeal of pinball is not staring at a screen. Under 30 here, but my job has me staring at a screen all day. Video games have me staring at a screen. TV yadda yadda yadda.

Part of the appeal of pinball is not staring at a screen. Sure, dmds have pixels, but you glance at them and focus on the game.

I would rather toss hammer heads at a dart board than play Popeye........

Dart boards are only fun when you're inebriated. Pitchers of beer, cigarettes playing pool and that blaring juke box. Reminds of 1988. Never got in trouble, made it home every night. Guess I was lucky.

Let's just let this thread die now, Hasnt been on topic for awhile

I've played the P3 at several of the shows now including the most recent Expo. I'm very excited about it and have money at the ready.

The screen you don't want to stare at blends into the game and becomes the playfield and that playfield becomes interactive. Different modes have different artwork and the machine seamlessly transforms. What really sold me was a black smoke trail that followed after the ball slow or fast. It was especially cool as I shot the ball off my flipper and that smoke trail followed like a jet.
With unlimited programming imagination this could be changed to lighting bolts or lasers or whatever. The possibilities are endless in a P3.

It could even become a dartboard.

Lawn-Dart_(resized).JPG

that's the whole thing, you are not staring at the screen. The shit on the screen is like a toy you hit. Except it can move around on you. Has effects when you hit it. It works like an interactive toy. You don't stare at it, you shoot the ball like normal and cool shit takes place. Makes you change up your shot patterns and how you play depending on where your toys are moving to.

Not only that, but you have sectional playfield kits that drop in easy. Takes 2 min to pull one out and throw another in. As soon as you do, the game knows the playfield and changes the software over instantly. BAM!!! new game. And the swappable playfields only take up about as much space as a 24 case of soda.

Overlooked video modes in almost all pinball games from 1991-1998. Integral part of the game.
Some have mutiple, unless you decide to cancel or drink a beer while they time out.

The vault Spiderman has one colour DMD. Why not upgrade this bearing in mind the purchase price ? At least try to bring things up to date.

Not true as Multimorphic has shown the LCD can interact with the playfield adding a tremendous amount of possibilities that are virtually open ended.

Secondly, Heighway has shown the LCD location can have an impact on the gameplay as you do not need to move your eyes from the playfield to see additional info which has an impact on the game.

These are major areas of technological improvement that change how the game is played.

As an adult I'll skip over the weak attempt to insult me. If you go back and reread you will find here was NEVER any attempt to say that dart boards are as varied as pinball machines, the comment discussed the addition of technology and lack of difference in the fundamental play of the game when it was added. The discussion is that same point can be said for pinball, increase in technology has not changed the fundamental play of the game.

The scoring display has changed from light bulbs to score reels to single line numeric to multi-line alpha-numeric and now LCD - same score different way to show it. LCD allows higher quality animations or video but that is really just part of the artwork it isn't part of playing pinball. On GOT (and others) there is a video game mode ..meh not pinball anymore.

I think you may be a bit sensitive if you think I was trying to insult you. I'm pointing out the obvious which you agree with now.

The addition of technology is far more multifaceted and impactful in pinball so I think we agree there.

The playfield has changed from steel pins to active/static rubber bumpers and went from no flippers to 6 and back to 2 and now varies from 2-4. Targets went from drop holes to active targets but the goal is the same, scoring points by hitting targets.

Targets have evolved to be more fully integrated with the theme, now they are called "toys" but the concept is the same, hit the target raise your score. So for more than 80 years pinball has had some big changes but in the last 40 years there has been very little in the way of real innovation and yet people still play pinball ... maybe it doesn't need to be pushed forward.

Whatever you feel the impact of the technology may be the technology does move forward.

Maybe we should have more of that technology incorporated in pinball?

IMO Multimorphic is certainly innovative in overall concept but the "pinball" portion of the machine isn't really any different than what I described above. Sure, is it innovative to change the playfield to an LCD allows different art work to be displayed for different situations but that is an evolutionary change ... static display to dynamic ... but it doesn't change the fundamental concept of hitting a ball with flippers to score points. Will it be more fun? Will it become the next standard or will it become a footnote in the history of pinball? Who knows, only time will tell.

Why?
I have to say I have no idea what the majority of pinball customers (present or future) want from a pin. If most players want a more traditional machine would it be smart of Stern to try and shove technology down our throats? (I'm not talking about the internal architecture like SPIKE) MAYBE they know something about the industry, maybe they are happy to let boutique shops build these "innovative" pins because at the moment there isn't a huge demand. Maybe there isn't huge demand because players recognize that technology doesn't always enhance every experience.

I don't think Stern has to do anything. I'm just saying I don't like what they do because it isn't pushing anything forward. Some people may feel pinball is supposed to be what Stern is giving us. I feel Stern is not giving us anything that could not have been done decades ago.

If that is what Stern associates with pinball so be it and it seems many others like it. I'd like to see things pushed and will spend my dollars with those that think a bit differently and try to innovate.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea or that it won't do well. Only that I do not have any interest in it. Is it neat that the playfield can interact with the game, sure. Does it change that you are still staring at a screen? Nope.

Video modes last the better part of what 20 seconds? On a 5 -20 minute game that isn't exactly a large amount of time. Some are fun such as FT, BSD, and BR. Most are repetitive and completely not worth playing BF, Tommy.

If the market is going to pop the bubble the first two weeks of this year should do it.

Or today.