(Topic ID: 241500)

When Will Stern Pinball Machines Be Online?


By HighProtein

7 months ago



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  • 234 posts
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  • Latest reply 7 months ago by Tuukka
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    Topic poll

    “When Will Stern Pinball Machines Be Online?”

    • 2019 8 votes
      6%
    • 2020 36 votes
      25%
    • 2021 16 votes
      11%
    • By 2030 21 votes
      15%
    • Never... 62 votes
      43%

    (143 votes)

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    24
    #7 7 months ago

    Someone actually explain what “Head to Head gameplay is” and how it would even be remotely satisfying. Or why high scores matter when every game is set up differently. Anyone wishing for online pinball has a case of the “Wouldn’t it be cool ifs”. Pinball companies can barley get out games that are finished with fully tested rules....you think they’re going to bother with online play? Pinball isn’t a video game. It’s not Fortnite, where you actually see people in real time and what they’re doing. Pinball is “man vs. machine”. That’s what it is. Don’t try to wish it into something it’s not “cuz it would be cool”.

    Only reasons pinball could use online functions:
    -To notify operators of problems & allow them to remotely change settings
    -To notify the public of a location
    -To notify the public of a unit’s ongoing Tournament setting
    -To auto-code update.

    That’s it. Online play makes zero sense..if anyone actually attempted it, you’d see how stupid it was and would wonder why they bothered.

    #26 7 months ago
    Quoted from taylor34:

    I can barely read this post without my head exploding. Seriously. All of you must be:

    listening to cd's and tape cassettes because streaming music could get hacked and is online
    playing with your old NES instead of Tetris 99 on the switch, or games on your phone.

    Again, pinball isn't videogames. When I'm playing Tetris 99, I can SEE all the other Tetris players and interact with them in a way that makes sense. For those of us that are sooooo stupid, PLEASE - explain what "online pinball" would be?

    Cuz here's the reality...when you're playing pinball, you're looking at THE PLAYFIELD. Not another player or their playfield. So...in a theoretical "head to head" pinball match, what is happening exactly? I'm playing MY machine...while someone is playing THEIR machine. Where is the compelling VS gameplay aspect. OK, I'm hearing you say "Well they do something and it affects YOUR machine" ...OK, what if they "do something" while I'm drained and getting ready to shoot a new ball? What even is the "something"? Let's say we're playing MM "against" each other...they blow up a castle and I see it happening on my playfield? Anything someone "does" to my game will just look like a bunch of bugs and glitches. Sorry, but Pinball is YOU vs. MACHINE...it inherently can't act like an online game where you see someone else's avatar reacting to you in real time.

    NBA Fastbreak had linked gameplay. Gimmick no one cared about, didn't move the needle. P3 has the same thing...it's cute at shows, but no one gives a flying F....and those games MAYBE work because they're head to head in person....online? I'm telling you, you'd try it a few times and never do it again.

    But please....explain the design of a "head to head" online pinball game, how it would work and why it would be fun. Go. SHOW US how we're dumb, you can't just compare pinball to other technology that clearly lends itself to online use.

    #27 7 months ago
    Quoted from gunstarhero:

    Basic online functionality like leaderboards and updates is a great idea.

    Why? How are the scores on one machine remotely relevant to the scores on another machine? All machines are set up differently. It's totally irrelevant. Does anyone even care about the high scores on a single machine, unless you beat them? Online leaderboards only make sense for video games...where all conditions are exactly the same.

    #28 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    All this would be great for pinball just like XBOX live.

    Who wouldn't want to see your friends, and play them for fun?

    Pinball is NOT A VIDEO GAME. OK, let's talk Xbox. NONE of the digital pinball games (Zen, Pinball Arcade) have a "play against each other" mode. Cuz it literally makes no sense, because Pinball is already YOU vs. THE PLAYFIELD. Simultaneous multiplayer makes no sense (unless it's Joust pinball, and that game is rare for a reason). They do tournaments and online scoring because everyone is playing "the same game".

    Please explain what "playing them for fun" entails. What does that MEAN in relation to pinball. Again, another case of "Wouldn't It Be Cools" without actually thinking what they actually would get in this hypothetical scenario.

    #33 7 months ago
    Quoted from CLEllison:

    Adding head to head competition would really be something. Add balls, take away balls, forcing modes on another player etc etc.

    Again you're forgetting that both playfields are doing entirely different things. They're not in sync like online video games. What would adding/taking balls and forcing modes even be? That would just seem like your game is glitching out. I really don't think you guys are considering GAME DESIGN at all when you throw these rando ideas out there. Please, think beyond "wouldn't it be cool if...." ....truly think about what you're asking for and how it would be remotely functional or fun. Pinball is Player vs. machine...when you're done, you get a score. That's the game. Wanna compete? Your score vs. other scores on that machine. That's pinball. It will never be Fortnite....ever.

    14
    #37 7 months ago

    I’ve seen it all. A Doorbellgument. Pinball is over. Lol.

    #94 7 months ago
    Quoted from PoMC:

    What could be cool playing head to head would be not a full game, but timed goals. Both machines auto launch a ball at the same time, each player has X amount of time to score a number of points; # of ramp shots; hit various targets, etc. Flippers go dead and balls drain when time expires. All objectives can be configured and agreed upon before starting a game.

    Why would this be fun? It’s like pinball, but annoying. You can’t see or interact with the other person while you’re concentrating on playing....so what’s the point?

    #96 7 months ago
    Quoted from Reality_Studio:

    I wonder if back in the day people similarly fought against other pinball additions. Like when flippers were added to pinball, did some people rage and say it would ruin the true essence of pinball? Or when the tilt bob was added did people complain that they didn't want their pinball machine watching them? Or when dmd was added did some say it would ruin pinball and turn it into a video game?

    Your false equivalency game is in overdrive.

    Flippers made pinball into pinball. Explain how online play makes pinball into something better. Waiting for a real logical game design theory of “online play” and how it would be more fun than pinball as it exists.

    Tilt bobs don’t watch anyone. They keep people from damaging a machine.

    DMDs are score displays. They did add video modes, and some people did complain about that since pinball is pinball, why stop to play a lame monochrome video game? Most designers now insist “NO VIDEO MODES”.

    #98 7 months ago
    Quoted from phoenixpin:

    Like it or not you asked for “how” it would actually work in practice, and this is a way.

    It could, but it wouldn’t be fun. Why would anyone want to play a timed game against someone they can’t see or pay attention to on a machine that’s most likely set up differently?

    Is pinball as a game not fun or interesting anymore? If you think pinball NEEDS this head to head thing, I don’t think you like pinball anymore. Play Fortnite, Apex Legends, or Overwatch. Those exist and have 100s of millions of people to play against.

    #99 7 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    It is kind of funny how nobody can explain why any of this nonsense would be remotely enjoyable.[quoted image]

    The stubbornness to hold onto bad ideas is kind of an essential trait these days.

    I guarantee no one can come up with an online pinball game theory that would be fun or functional. They’ll keep calling us old and closed minded tho. We’re the morons, Levi.

    #125 7 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Multimorphic has games linked via Wi-Fi with internet play in the works

    A whole 8 people are thrilled!

    12
    #127 7 months ago
    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    When I was playing Black Ops(zombies) online it was such a satisfying feeling to be on top of a bunch of random people. If someone could figure out a way for online pinball to become that competitive I would be interested. I like playing pinball with my wife and friends but I just can’t get the competition feeling I’m looking for to help push me to the next level. Maybe online pinball gaming will help maybe it won’t.

    You don’t like pinball. You like video games. Again - you’re comparing two entirely different types of games. Black ops is DESIGNED to be people vs. people ...you see each other running around in real time, reacting to each other. Pinball is already designed around the concept: you vs. a playfield. Another player on another machine is playing against their playfield. You can’t be playing “each other” on separate playfields. It literally makes no sense.

    #138 7 months ago
    Quoted from stantman:

    It makes as much sense as Tetris 99 that you claim to enjoy so much.

    LOL "that you claim to enjoy so much". Yes. I claim that. Why wouldn't I? It's well designed and it's fun. What a weird statement.

    Quoted from stantman:

    That's essentially you against your gameboard. Seeing the other players' boards is practically immaterial to gameplay, and other players' actions simply affect the difficulty on your board. You'd be as equally informed with a couple of status icons and counters on your screen indicating how many people are targeting you and their badge counts.

    This is another false equivalency. Let's break it down:

    Game design. Tetris is SIMPLE AF. Drop pieces, clear rows. There aren't scoops, mode start saucers, toys, and the general complexity of pinball.

    Tetris and competitive puzzle games have been a thing since the 80's. Dr. Mario, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter. This is an established genre. Clear pieces/combos, send garbage to the other player.

    OK, so Tetris 99 takes an established concept that's worked for 3 decades...and turns it into Battle Royale. It totally works. You can see who's attacking you and respond in real time. I've asked it a million times already - but it's fundamental: What would be the "real time" aspect of playing pinball against each other when two different games and balls are doing entirely different things, on a playfield that's already been designed as a player vs. machine experience?

    ...and one more thing - again, sorry to repeat myself...but, USER BASE. Do you know why Tetris 99 works? Because it's FREE (sort of). Let's say 10 million people have Nintendo Online subscriptions. They all get Tetris 99 cuz it's free and easy to play anywhere....that's a lot of people, which means there are always matches ready to go within seconds. Even the most popular pinball machine will never have a user base that is conducive to live online play. There are too few machines. They're too cumbersome and remote to have an active online user base. Even if someone did it, the process of trying to find someone to play will be rare and annoying...you'll just be sitting there waiting for someone. The joy of pinball is HIT START & PLAAAAY!!!! You don't NEED someone else to enjoy it.

    #140 7 months ago
    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    All I’m saying is just because you don’t understand how online pinball will work doesn’t mean it can’t work.

    This is the default response. I don't understand it. Waiting for someone to explain a functional and fun online pinball game design. I swear, this is like arguing religion....you have FAITH that online pinball is great and can exist. I don't. The onus is on YOU to prove it....but all you can say is that I'm too blind to see it.

    PROVE IT! Fun online game theory, GO.

    #149 7 months ago
    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    Turn your pin on... other people turn their pin on..both people connect online both people smile = fun

    That’s not a game. That’s not design. That’s barely a concept. That’s “wouldn’t it be cool if....” without any thought behind it. You’ve ignored everything I’ve said so far about design, what pinball actually is, and user bases.

    #150 7 months ago
    Quoted from stantman:

    This forum is a very strange place.

    It certainly is when people like you just resort to personal insults when they can’t make a valid point otherwise. I don’t have to defend my career to you. We’re starting season 18. That speaks for itself. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, and still doesn’t make the concept of online pinball good.

    #151 7 months ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Greg, ever consider running for president?

    I value facts, ethics, science, equality & abhor bigotry, violence and hypocrisy.

    Not sure I could win these days.

    #154 7 months ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    Here's a very simple but functional head to head game which many people who have played it have said is fun:

    Blurb from the Multimorphic website:
    "Heads Up! is the first internet-connected game for the P3. Play against an opponent on another P3 in the same room or anywhere in the world! Heads Up! creates a shared playfield across two connected machines, presenting the exact same targets to both players. Shoot green gem shots, and you score points. Shoot red portal shots, and your ball goes to your opponent, allowing them to rack up more points. It’s simple in concept but layered in strategic complexity. As shots are made and missed, the gems and portal shots change state. Master the timing to maximize points!"
    https://www.multimorphic.com/store/p3-game-kits/heads-up/

    Well aware of that, and that proves the point that a concept like this doesn’t move the needle. It’s cute at shows but
    no one wants it. Now - let’s imagine this game is sold on internet gameplay. With a user base of 8, how often will anyone actually be online to play?

    Since we’re talking about Stern - they don’t have a virtual playfield and modules, so they’d have to make the game purely simple like this to work as an online game...but then would it be good or fun as a single player/local co-op game, the reason most people buy pinball machines? ...and even with a probably larger Stern user base, would a user base of 500-1000 or so be worth tailoring a pinball machine for online play?

    Stern knows pinball is pinball. Pinball fans like pinball because it’s pinball. There’s a reason Stern has grown like crazy since 2012, and P3 hasn’t made a blip.

    #161 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    I think you meant to say you make no sense. Pinball has been using video screens since the late 80's. Multiple games listed in Pinside top 100 have video game elements to them... games as recently as Houdini have video elements, as does Pirates where you can play liar's dice. We need to bring back some of those features because it adds to the game. You can call yourself a pinball purist that's fine but you're just one person.
    Pinball companies don't live or die based on people like you buying a game. They need customers well outside the realm of pinside, they need casual players to put coins in otherwise entertainment centers won't buy the games.
    Anything that improves the game is a bonus adding wifi to the games opens up the possibilities to what is possible. Your line of thinking is dead wrong, because that keeps pinball in the stone ages. With time everything gets old, which is why every few years the corvette gets a new design.
    Speaking of which now Corvette is on an all out change going mid-engine, wow over 50 years of Corvette and now there is finally mid-engine. I wonder why?
    Pinball is going to add WIFI and once they do they'll open themselves up to all sorts of possibilities, and fine new players, owners and fans.

    Cargument. You fail. No reason to discuss further. Wifi may come to pinball and has some practical non-gameplay uses. It won’t move the needle or make anyone who isn’t interested in pinball magically become interested in pinball.

    Pinball is what it is. An expensive retro coin-op machine. Not a mass produced product for mainstream use like a car.

    #165 7 months ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    Come over to my house and live with teenagers and the revolving door of friends that come over.

    Ask the teens, “Hey teens - what would think of pinball if it had the WIFI like you like these days!?” I’d love to see a video of their reaction.

    #169 7 months ago
    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    I can understand why internet and pinball would scare older folks, kind of like tv screens in pinball.

    Ohp, there’s the “youre old and out of touch” crutch once again when someone can’t actually debate their side of the issue intelligently. No one’s “scared” of the fucking internet...I’m probably younger than most people on this forum. We’re talking about fun and function.

    Everyone on Earth uses the internet. We understand how it works & what it’s functions are. I play online games all the time. I work on a computer all day. You can’t use “old and out of touch” as an insult when we’re talking about PINBALL of all things - an ancient and obsolete game....why does it still exist? Because it’s FUN. Fun trumps tech & good games are forever. Tech is irrelevant when it comes to pinball. It’s engineer mindset vs. creative game developer mindset. Hate to keep piling on P3, but it’s such a perfect example of a tech minded approach vs. a fun minded approach. A solution in search of a problem. It’s a perfect example of “wouldn’t it be cool if.....” ...and ill give it that, it is cool - to an extent. I appreciate the tech behind it...but it doesn’t move the needle in the pinball scene/hobby at all.

    #175 7 months ago
    Quoted from alveolus:

    I’m pretty sure he could come from beyond the grave to get in the last word. It must be exhausting.

    Stubborn people who cannot have an intellectually honest discussion are the ones who are exhausting. My weakness is that I hold out hope that people the ability to be objective & discuss an issue without falling back on insults & false equivalency. I give people too much credit. It’s a character flaw I need to work on.

    #179 7 months ago
    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    Man you you must really have high blood pressure after writing this.

    Not at all, I’m just relaxing & watching some shows on my scary internet movie machine, I mean, Netflix. But keep making these wild assumptions about me. You’re wrong every time. It’s cute.

    Quoted from Wildbill327:

    How about you explain why the pole is pointing to internet and pinball...?

    Pole? lol...back to my scary internet show. Maybe one day I’ll be able to “watch movies against someone” with the internets!!!

    #186 7 months ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    You asked for an example of a functional and fun head-to-head game and I gave you one. I'm sure Gerry and the rest of the team would agree that Heads Up! and Cosmic Cart Racing are just a start but they open up enormous possibilities. Maybe it hasn't made much of an impact in the pinball hobby yet but new people and kids at shows love it and it has also had success on locations which have a high percentage of casual players. This is the demographic that pinball needs to appeal to in order to grow.

    Ok, that is true that you gave me those examples. There are so many hurdles and problems tho. To have head to head in person, that’s $20k. That’s a no-go for locations and homeowners. As games, they’re not that different than iPhone apps but with pinball mechs. What is the fun longevity of those games? The likelihood that enough people would buy them to build a user base? As we’ve already seen - they haven’t had traction.

    Casual players like casual free or 99 cent phone games. You’re not gonna rope them into pinball.

    Bringing it back to Stern & a traditional pinball playfield. They’ve grown immensely with pinball as pinball. While P3 has made head-to-head work with an app style tech demo game....I don’t see that working with a typical “player vs machine” game that Stern produces. Pinball does need something to hook casuals - and history has shown that a great obvious mech to interact with (MM castle, POTC ship) is the key. There’s a reason pinball has hung on all these years despite leaps in tech in other aspects of life. Cuz good pinball is always good. It’s retro by nature, and people dig retro. The public didn’t need pinball to turn into P3.

    #189 7 months ago
    Quoted from phoenixpin:

    Charging for downloadable content is the obvious business play for Stern. That is why internet enabled machines will happen. Rarehero where is your debate on this? And I mean I’d like to hear your argument for/against it from the business, feasibility and fun aspects...

    Paid DLC for pinball is a no-go. Again, these aren’t video games. Stern can barely get these games finished 2 years after launch. The game is the game...a game that costs $5500-$12000, FFS...charging extra for what should just be in the game & done is an asinine proposition. It’s insulting to the customer & frankly something pinball doesn’t need. It’s another “wouldn’t it be cool if...(a game had all new rules)”. A well designed game should already have an excellent and well designed ruleset...and the only reason pinball machines even get code updates is due to the short development & non-existing testing time...they need to get units out the door ASAP & we’re the guinea pigs. To charge us any further for being their testers would be bonkers. Any “new” content should included in that price. Splatoon 2 is $60 and has received free content update for years. If a $60 game can do that, a multithousand dollar game should do that.

    Now - I’m a person that bought BOP 2.0...so you might say there’s a market for new rules. However BOP is a bit different. It was a kit that changed a game of a certain era into a game of the modern era....and most people who have BOP got it used and cheap. It was more of a true hobbyist scenario vs. a new product.

    #198 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Wrong again. You're so negative it blinds you to the reality of the day you live! Technology is changing everything around you, its moving so fast, you either keep up with it or ultimately you die off. Who's to say pinball won't die off, that we're seeing a phase, which will come and go? The video game industry as a whole suffered several years back due to games going online. The video business had to adapt, and mostly it changed its direction to redemption, it had no choice but to reinvent itself. Pinball can't sit back and rest of what has been for decades, it must look to the future and keep any and every possibility open.
    Pinball companies are trying to sell games, and get customers to drop money into the machines so operators will buy them. Pinball must appeal to a wide audience not a small few with small thinking minds like you! Pinball is to survive and thrive it needs more players not less so anything you can add to a pinball that opens more doors is a good thing not a bad thing. You talk like pinball is just made for you, and you only.
    I will say it once again pinball companies survive not because of the small few who post on Pinside but the millions of people around the world who visit FEC, bowling centers, sports bars, arcades, and appealing to the consumer market for home game rooms. I can promise you the mass majority of Stern games are not sold to pinsiders, but people outside that realm.
    You're thinking closed minded and thoughts like that will keep pinball in the stone ages. If you want pinball to thrive they must keep up and compete against other types of vending machines. If they become to expensive pinball loses, if non-pinball owners stop putting in quarters sales will drastically drop.
    Having the ability in a pinball like a racing game, or dart board to compete against other players, win tickets, or anything like that keeps pinball going.
    Sad you can't see thru glass!

    You type a lot and say nothing...other than insulting me when you can’t intelligently debate this issue. I’m not negative. I’m a realist.

    Stop comparing pinball to other technology. It’s a false equivelancy every time you do it. Pinball, an arcade coin-op game did evolve with technology...into video games, a more advanced form of coin-op game...which then led to home video gaming, an affordable mainstream thing that keeps evolving with technology, and that’s fantastic. Pinball is an earlier branch of the evolutionary tree of electronic/arcade gaming. It really doesn’t need to exist anymore. The fact that pinball is here is a testament to the game of pinball...technology is practically irrelevant to it. People like pinball because it’s pinball. Modern tech can make it cooler, but cannot change what it is and why it exists.

    Fact: Most people can’t afford pinball or have space for it. They can afford and have space for Fortnite on their phone/tablet/console/PC.

    Fact: Internet pinball will never drive the masses to pinball.

    Fact: Pinball will always be a niche hobby. People will enjoy it in barcades or in hobbyist or rich people’s homes.

    Don’t reply unless you can debate with facts. If you choose to keep ignoring facts & insulting me, that only reflects on you & it won’t change reality.

    #201 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Dude seriously you know nothing, you don't type facts, you clearly do not understand the industry at all. You're not giving facts, you're giving a narrow opinion. Have you ever been to IAAPA, Bowl Expo, Amusement Expo, Consumer Electronic Show the tradeshows where all of these games are really bought and sold, where deals are made? Do you understand the overall competition for all vending machines, do you understand why an FEC will or won't buy a pinball machine? No you don't.

    Make your point without insults & assumptions, or I’ll just play your game and call you Dr. Fuckleberry...I’ve been to plenty of trade shows, CES, E3, etc. I understand technology. If you want to discuss this with me, drop the “you must be old and out of touch” bit.

    Quoted from drfrightner:

    If a pinball company needs to add features to attraction more people to drop dollars at a bowling center that is exactly what they will do!

    OK, your focus is location games. Cool. Let’s talk about that. Features that the player enjoys are great. Internet features aren’t anything anyone cares about when dropping coin in an arcade game. 3-5 minutes of entertainment is. Dialed In is a game about cell phones and can even link & be played with one. The game doesn’t make more than regular Sterns. No one cares about the “innovative” technology aspect. I’ve never seen one location with a P3. No one cares. So - please, your turn to educate me. What SPECIFIC tech advancement does pinball need to sell more to FECs & attract more players?

    -2
    #204 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Honestly its pointless to debate with someone who doesn't understand the coin op industry.

    Then stop. But you won’t. And I do understand the coin op industry. So you can drop your “You know nothing” bit. It’s just another insult in your arsenal at this point to diminish my valid points. Not working.

    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Despite all your negative comments, all pinball companies will start to add more features including WIFI, Camera's, Mics, and probably video modes.

    Again, not negative. Realist. Ok, let’s do this one by one:

    -I’ve already said I think WiFi has benefits for ops & some player applications like being able to find a game and to know about tournament settings on specific machines. I’m not against WiFi. I’ve merely stated that the concept of Head-to-Head internet play is ridiculous & those who think it sounds cool haven’t thought it out. That being said, does WiFi sell more games to locations? Doubtful...but if it’s in the machine, cool.

    -Cameras: I think JJP’s camera use on Dialed In for the selfie mode is clever and funny. Wonkvision is also clever. Has a Dialed In earned more for ops due to its camera? No.

    Mics: Whats the practical application of a mic in a loud arcade?

    Video Modes: They’ve existed since T2. Some like, some hate, some are neutral...they don’t move the needle, location players don’t know they’re even there when they put in quarters, and when they happen, they’re mostly confused. Video modes are a non-issue...mostly they detract. If players want a video game, they’ll go play a video game. It’s not impressive when a pinball machine stops for a bad video game.

    #206 7 months ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Just so you can take your own advice you're up to nearly 30 posts on this thread. I think I've had 10. So when you tell someone to stop maybe you should look in the mirror long and hard.

    So now we’re post stalking? You’ve been on a tear with non stop ten mile long posts all over. But guess what - good news - you’ve proven yourself to be an irrational, hypocritical, insulting and obnoxious member of this community - so I’ll be tossing you on my block list, and you’ll never hear from me again. Don’t bother responding to anything I write, as it won’t be read. Byeeeeeee!!!

    #215 7 months ago
    Quoted from stantman:

    Holy crap, man. Personal insults? Defend your career? I couldn't care less what career you or anybody else chooses, and I'd never ask you to defend it. That's exactly the point I was making. You repeatedly misuse the phrase "false equivalence" because you consider your opinions to be facts. They're not. You can dish out strong opinions about pinball/gaming but not take a single and clearly minority opinion about a tv show you work on without getting offended and claiming personal insult. How about addressing the actual point and not trying to play the victim.

    I know you directed this at somebody else, but seriously, who's the one making personal insults? This is a discussion forum. Somebody makes a post you disagree with and you attack them? I guess we're done with the actual topic. Rarehero has spoken, everybody. If any of you disagree with him, you're wrong, and if you push your point the way he pushes his, look out!

    Put me on ignore.

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