Someone actually explain what “Head to Head gameplay is” and how it would even be remotely satisfying. Or why high scores matter when every game is set up differently. Anyone wishing for online pinball has a case of the “Wouldn’t it be cool ifs”. Pinball companies can barley get out games that are finished with fully tested rules....you think they’re going to bother with online play? Pinball isn’t a video game. It’s not Fortnite, where you actually see people in real time and what they’re doing. Pinball is “man vs. machine”. That’s what it is. Don’t try to wish it into something it’s not “cuz it would be cool”.

Only reasons pinball could use online functions:
-To notify operators of problems & allow them to remotely change settings
-To notify the public of a location
-To notify the public of a unit’s ongoing Tournament setting
-To auto-code update.

That’s it. Online play makes zero sense..if anyone actually attempted it, you’d see how stupid it was and would wonder why they bothered.

Again, pinball isn't videogames. When I'm playing Tetris 99, I can SEE all the other Tetris players and interact with them in a way that makes sense. For those of us that are sooooo stupid, PLEASE - explain what "online pinball" would be?

Cuz here's the reality...when you're playing pinball, you're looking at THE PLAYFIELD. Not another player or their playfield. So...in a theoretical "head to head" pinball match, what is happening exactly? I'm playing MY machine...while someone is playing THEIR machine. Where is the compelling VS gameplay aspect. OK, I'm hearing you say "Well they do something and it affects YOUR machine" ...OK, what if they "do something" while I'm drained and getting ready to shoot a new ball? What even is the "something"? Let's say we're playing MM "against" each other...they blow up a castle and I see it happening on my playfield? Anything someone "does" to my game will just look like a bunch of bugs and glitches. Sorry, but Pinball is YOU vs. MACHINE...it inherently can't act like an online game where you see someone else's avatar reacting to you in real time.

NBA Fastbreak had linked gameplay. Gimmick no one cared about, didn't move the needle. P3 has the same thing...it's cute at shows, but no one gives a flying F....and those games MAYBE work because they're head to head in person....online? I'm telling you, you'd try it a few times and never do it again.

But please....explain the design of a "head to head" online pinball game, how it would work and why it would be fun. Go. SHOW US how we're dumb, you can't just compare pinball to other technology that clearly lends itself to online use.

Why? How are the scores on one machine remotely relevant to the scores on another machine? All machines are set up differently. It's totally irrelevant. Does anyone even care about the high scores on a single machine, unless you beat them? Online leaderboards only make sense for video games...where all conditions are exactly the same.

Pinball is NOT A VIDEO GAME. OK, let's talk Xbox. NONE of the digital pinball games (Zen, Pinball Arcade) have a "play against each other" mode. Cuz it literally makes no sense, because Pinball is already YOU vs. THE PLAYFIELD. Simultaneous multiplayer makes no sense (unless it's Joust pinball, and that game is rare for a reason). They do tournaments and online scoring because everyone is playing "the same game".

Please explain what "playing them for fun" entails. What does that MEAN in relation to pinball. Again, another case of "Wouldn't It Be Cools" without actually thinking what they actually would get in this hypothetical scenario.

Again you're forgetting that both playfields are doing entirely different things. They're not in sync like online video games. What would adding/taking balls and forcing modes even be? That would just seem like your game is glitching out. I really don't think you guys are considering GAME DESIGN at all when you throw these rando ideas out there. Please, think beyond "wouldn't it be cool if...." ....truly think about what you're asking for and how it would be remotely functional or fun. Pinball is Player vs. machine...when you're done, you get a score. That's the game. Wanna compete? Your score vs. other scores on that machine. That's pinball. It will never be Fortnite....ever.

I’ve seen it all. A Doorbellgument. Pinball is over. Lol.

Why would this be fun? It’s like pinball, but annoying. You can’t see or interact with the other person while you’re concentrating on playing....so what’s the point?

Your false equivalency game is in overdrive.

Flippers made pinball into pinball. Explain how online play makes pinball into something better. Waiting for a real logical game design theory of “online play” and how it would be more fun than pinball as it exists.

Tilt bobs don’t watch anyone. They keep people from damaging a machine.

DMDs are score displays. They did add video modes, and some people did complain about that since pinball is pinball, why stop to play a lame monochrome video game? Most designers now insist “NO VIDEO MODES”.

It could, but it wouldn’t be fun. Why would anyone want to play a timed game against someone they can’t see or pay attention to on a machine that’s most likely set up differently?

Is pinball as a game not fun or interesting anymore? If you think pinball NEEDS this head to head thing, I don’t think you like pinball anymore. Play Fortnite, Apex Legends, or Overwatch. Those exist and have 100s of millions of people to play against.

The stubbornness to hold onto bad ideas is kind of an essential trait these days.

I guarantee no one can come up with an online pinball game theory that would be fun or functional. They’ll keep calling us old and closed minded tho. We’re the morons, Levi.

A whole 8 people are thrilled!

You don’t like pinball. You like video games. Again - you’re comparing two entirely different types of games. Black ops is DESIGNED to be people vs. people ...you see each other running around in real time, reacting to each other. Pinball is already designed around the concept: you vs. a playfield. Another player on another machine is playing against their playfield. You can’t be playing “each other” on separate playfields. It literally makes no sense.

LOL "that you claim to enjoy so much". Yes. I claim that. Why wouldn't I? It's well designed and it's fun. What a weird statement.

This is another false equivalency. Let's break it down:

Game design. Tetris is SIMPLE AF. Drop pieces, clear rows. There aren't scoops, mode start saucers, toys, and the general complexity of pinball.

Tetris and competitive puzzle games have been a thing since the 80's. Dr. Mario, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter. This is an established genre. Clear pieces/combos, send garbage to the other player.

OK, so Tetris 99 takes an established concept that's worked for 3 decades...and turns it into Battle Royale. It totally works. You can see who's attacking you and respond in real time. I've asked it a million times already - but it's fundamental: What would be the "real time" aspect of playing pinball against each other when two different games and balls are doing entirely different things, on a playfield that's already been designed as a player vs. machine experience?

...and one more thing - again, sorry to repeat myself...but, USER BASE. Do you know why Tetris 99 works? Because it's FREE (sort of). Let's say 10 million people have Nintendo Online subscriptions. They all get Tetris 99 cuz it's free and easy to play anywhere....that's a lot of people, which means there are always matches ready to go within seconds. Even the most popular pinball machine will never have a user base that is conducive to live online play. There are too few machines. They're too cumbersome and remote to have an active online user base. Even if someone did it, the process of trying to find someone to play will be rare and annoying...you'll just be sitting there waiting for someone. The joy of pinball is HIT START & PLAAAAY!!!! You don't NEED someone else to enjoy it.

This is the default response. I don't understand it. Waiting for someone to explain a functional and fun online pinball game design. I swear, this is like arguing religion....you have FAITH that online pinball is great and can exist. I don't. The onus is on YOU to prove it....but all you can say is that I'm too blind to see it.

PROVE IT! Fun online game theory, GO.

That’s not a game. That’s not design. That’s barely a concept. That’s “wouldn’t it be cool if....” without any thought behind it. You’ve ignored everything I’ve said so far about design, what pinball actually is, and user bases.

It certainly is when people like you just resort to personal insults when they can’t make a valid point otherwise. I don’t have to defend my career to you. We’re starting season 18. That speaks for itself. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, and still doesn’t make the concept of online pinball good.

I value facts, ethics, science, equality & abhor bigotry, violence and hypocrisy.

Not sure I could win these days.

Well aware of that, and that proves the point that a concept like this doesn’t move the needle. It’s cute at shows but
no one wants it. Now - let’s imagine this game is sold on internet gameplay. With a user base of 8, how often will anyone actually be online to play?

Since we’re talking about Stern - they don’t have a virtual playfield and modules, so they’d have to make the game purely simple like this to work as an online game...but then would it be good or fun as a single player/local co-op game, the reason most people buy pinball machines? ...and even with a probably larger Stern user base, would a user base of 500-1000 or so be worth tailoring a pinball machine for online play?

Stern knows pinball is pinball. Pinball fans like pinball because it’s pinball. There’s a reason Stern has grown like crazy since 2012, and P3 hasn’t made a blip.

Cargument. You fail. No reason to discuss further. Wifi may come to pinball and has some practical non-gameplay uses. It won’t move the needle or make anyone who isn’t interested in pinball magically become interested in pinball.

Pinball is what it is. An expensive retro coin-op machine. Not a mass produced product for mainstream use like a car.

Ask the teens, “Hey teens - what would think of pinball if it had the WIFI like you like these days!?” I’d love to see a video of their reaction.

Ohp, there’s the “youre old and out of touch” crutch once again when someone can’t actually debate their side of the issue intelligently. No one’s “scared” of the fucking internet...I’m probably younger than most people on this forum. We’re talking about fun and function.

Everyone on Earth uses the internet. We understand how it works & what it’s functions are. I play online games all the time. I work on a computer all day. You can’t use “old and out of touch” as an insult when we’re talking about PINBALL of all things - an ancient and obsolete game....why does it still exist? Because it’s FUN. Fun trumps tech & good games are forever. Tech is irrelevant when it comes to pinball. It’s engineer mindset vs. creative game developer mindset. Hate to keep piling on P3, but it’s such a perfect example of a tech minded approach vs. a fun minded approach. A solution in search of a problem. It’s a perfect example of “wouldn’t it be cool if.....” ...and ill give it that, it is cool - to an extent. I appreciate the tech behind it...but it doesn’t move the needle in the pinball scene/hobby at all.

Stubborn people who cannot have an intellectually honest discussion are the ones who are exhausting. My weakness is that I hold out hope that people the ability to be objective & discuss an issue without falling back on insults & false equivalency. I give people too much credit. It’s a character flaw I need to work on.

Not at all, I’m just relaxing & watching some shows on my scary internet movie machine, I mean, Netflix. But keep making these wild assumptions about me. You’re wrong every time. It’s cute.

Pole? lol...back to my scary internet show. Maybe one day I’ll be able to “watch movies against someone” with the internets!!!

Ok, that is true that you gave me those examples. There are so many hurdles and problems tho. To have head to head in person, that’s $20k. That’s a no-go for locations and homeowners. As games, they’re not that different than iPhone apps but with pinball mechs. What is the fun longevity of those games? The likelihood that enough people would buy them to build a user base? As we’ve already seen - they haven’t had traction.

Casual players like casual free or 99 cent phone games. You’re not gonna rope them into pinball.

Bringing it back to Stern & a traditional pinball playfield. They’ve grown immensely with pinball as pinball. While P3 has made head-to-head work with an app style tech demo game....I don’t see that working with a typical “player vs machine” game that Stern produces. Pinball does need something to hook casuals - and history has shown that a great obvious mech to interact with (MM castle, POTC ship) is the key. There’s a reason pinball has hung on all these years despite leaps in tech in other aspects of life. Cuz good pinball is always good. It’s retro by nature, and people dig retro. The public didn’t need pinball to turn into P3.

Paid DLC for pinball is a no-go. Again, these aren’t video games. Stern can barely get these games finished 2 years after launch. The game is the game...a game that costs $5500-$12000, FFS...charging extra for what should just be in the game & done is an asinine proposition. It’s insulting to the customer & frankly something pinball doesn’t need. It’s another “wouldn’t it be cool if...(a game had all new rules)”. A well designed game should already have an excellent and well designed ruleset...and the only reason pinball machines even get code updates is due to the short development & non-existing testing time...they need to get units out the door ASAP & we’re the guinea pigs. To charge us any further for being their testers would be bonkers. Any “new” content should included in that price. Splatoon 2 is $60 and has received free content update for years. If a $60 game can do that, a multithousand dollar game should do that.

Now - I’m a person that bought BOP 2.0...so you might say there’s a market for new rules. However BOP is a bit different. It was a kit that changed a game of a certain era into a game of the modern era....and most people who have BOP got it used and cheap. It was more of a true hobbyist scenario vs. a new product.

You type a lot and say nothing...other than insulting me when you can’t intelligently debate this issue. I’m not negative. I’m a realist.

Stop comparing pinball to other technology. It’s a false equivelancy every time you do it. Pinball, an arcade coin-op game did evolve with technology...into video games, a more advanced form of coin-op game...which then led to home video gaming, an affordable mainstream thing that keeps evolving with technology, and that’s fantastic. Pinball is an earlier branch of the evolutionary tree of electronic/arcade gaming. It really doesn’t need to exist anymore. The fact that pinball is here is a testament to the game of pinball...technology is practically irrelevant to it. People like pinball because it’s pinball. Modern tech can make it cooler, but cannot change what it is and why it exists.

Fact: Most people can’t afford pinball or have space for it. They can afford and have space for Fortnite on their phone/tablet/console/PC.

Fact: Internet pinball will never drive the masses to pinball.

Fact: Pinball will always be a niche hobby. People will enjoy it in barcades or in hobbyist or rich people’s homes.

Don’t reply unless you can debate with facts. If you choose to keep ignoring facts & insulting me, that only reflects on you & it won’t change reality.

Make your point without insults & assumptions, or I’ll just play your game and call you Dr. Fuckleberry...I’ve been to plenty of trade shows, CES, E3, etc. I understand technology. If you want to discuss this with me, drop the “you must be old and out of touch” bit.

OK, your focus is location games. Cool. Let’s talk about that. Features that the player enjoys are great. Internet features aren’t anything anyone cares about when dropping coin in an arcade game. 3-5 minutes of entertainment is. Dialed In is a game about cell phones and can even link & be played with one. The game doesn’t make more than regular Sterns. No one cares about the “innovative” technology aspect. I’ve never seen one location with a P3. No one cares. So - please, your turn to educate me. What SPECIFIC tech advancement does pinball need to sell more to FECs & attract more players?

Then stop. But you won’t. And I do understand the coin op industry. So you can drop your “You know nothing” bit. It’s just another insult in your arsenal at this point to diminish my valid points. Not working.

Again, not negative. Realist. Ok, let’s do this one by one:

-I’ve already said I think WiFi has benefits for ops & some player applications like being able to find a game and to know about tournament settings on specific machines. I’m not against WiFi. I’ve merely stated that the concept of Head-to-Head internet play is ridiculous & those who think it sounds cool haven’t thought it out. That being said, does WiFi sell more games to locations? Doubtful...but if it’s in the machine, cool.

-Cameras: I think JJP’s camera use on Dialed In for the selfie mode is clever and funny. Wonkvision is also clever. Has a Dialed In earned more for ops due to its camera? No.

Mics: Whats the practical application of a mic in a loud arcade?

Video Modes: They’ve existed since T2. Some like, some hate, some are neutral...they don’t move the needle, location players don’t know they’re even there when they put in quarters, and when they happen, they’re mostly confused. Video modes are a non-issue...mostly they detract. If players want a video game, they’ll go play a video game. It’s not impressive when a pinball machine stops for a bad video game.

So now we’re post stalking? You’ve been on a tear with non stop ten mile long posts all over. But guess what - good news - you’ve proven yourself to be an irrational, hypocritical, insulting and obnoxious member of this community - so I’ll be tossing you on my block list, and you’ll never hear from me again. Don’t bother responding to anything I write, as it won’t be read. Byeeeeeee!!!

Put me on ignore.