(Topic ID: 169915)

When will NIB prices price out operators?

By InfiniteLives

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Tesla-II
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    There are 174 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 7 years ago

    Pinball needs to cater a little more to ticket munching rugrats. Suggestions of audio blasting advertising "YOU WIN 50 TICKETS" Or other like gimmicks will help, but perhaps half size pinball legs for the kiddies which I have helped for a customer of mine and his handicapped kid or collectable cards and pogs like in ELAUT's Wizard Of OZ machines. I was at an amusement park and watched $300 get sunk in those machines in less than an hour on a weekday. I asked the op how much those machines were and he said 27K, but they were paid off in less than a month! Image for reference below. I am sure with all the licensed machines it would not be hard to create/install a dispensers much like slugfest or Initial D type video games with custom cards to be installed.

    GameSlide_PUSHERS_WizardOfOz (resized).pngGameSlide_PUSHERS_WizardOfOz (resized).png

    #102 7 years ago

    For the uninitiated or underwhelmed that may not realize some interesting history.

    The Simpson's Kooky Carnival!

    Rack 'em and Stack 'em.
    "Tokens for tickets." = $$$$

    Even Stern knew the drill back in 2004.
    Why not use leftover parts and make another game?
    Designed in 2004 and produced through 2006 for the "Chuck E. Cheese" world.

    Moderately successful, fun redemption game made out of a unloaded number of TSPP parts and a DMD.
    Ran off the WhiteStar board series.
    Practically ZERO maintenance issues in comparison to a TSPP.
    The biggest problem was the awkwardness of the cabinet, as it just does not transport well.
    It does sit well lengthwise on a forklift, but not any type of dolley.

    It actually has had some following of collectibility now for Simpsons fans to augment collections.
    The translite marquee and side art is actually VERY well done, which has led to increases in game value due to many getting trashed.
    The dot matrix animations and sounds were excellent as well.

    44000201.jpg44000201.jpg

    #103 7 years ago

    Stern made a Monopoly redemption too- don't know if that was before or after the pinball.

    I totally agree that it's a complete waste of time trying to make pinball machines work in a redemption/ticket setting.

    They can try it as much as they want it's NEVER gonna make any sense and it will never work. I'm all for pinball companies trying to cash in on the kiddie gambling craze but keep it separate by making dedicated redemption games.

    #104 7 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    For the uninitiated or underwhelmed that may not realize some interesting history.
    The Simpson's Kooky Carnival!
    Rack 'em and Stack 'em.
    "Tokens for tickets."
    Even Stern knew the drill back in 2004.
    Designed in 2004 and produced through 2006 for the "Chuck E. Cheese" world.
    Moderately successful redemption game made out of a buttload number of leftover TSPP parts and a DMD.
    Ran off the WhiteStar board series.
    Practically ZERO maintenance issues in comparison to a TSPP.
    It actually has had some following of collectibility now for Simpsons fans to augment collections.
    The translite marquee and side art is actually VERY well done, which has led to increases in game value due to many getting trashed.
    The dot matrix animations and sounds were excellent as well.

    our local chuck e cheese has one of these. it's easily the most fun redemption game there (not saying much). super easy to beat, too -- i was getting the 50-ticket payout every 3 or 4 coins spent.

    #105 7 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Stern made a Monopoly redemption too- don't know if that was before or after the pinball.

    They prototyped a Spider-Man redemption, too - but it was never released.

    #106 7 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Reusing existing parts and boardsets may help. So far, almost every newcomer has designed their own stuff from the ground up.
    If I were building something new, I'd try to use as many off-the-shelf parts and parts designs as possible.
    That would help keep R&D costs down, engineering costs down, tooling costs down, and production costs down. And also help get a game out the door faster. Maybe 1-2 years instead of 4.
    Sure, every new game is going to have a selection of new parts in it, but didn't gottlieb and WMS have general policies/guidelines for their designers to use a certain percentage of parts that already existed in their catalog when designing a new game?

    While I don't disagree with your statement generally, with the advances in electronics and other tech - it makes sense to re-visit old designs. One is often able to build better assemblies exhibiting better service up times and/or reduced costs.

    #107 7 years ago
    Quoted from Pinterest:

    While I don't disagree with your statement generally, with the advances in electronics and other tech - it makes sense to re-visit old designs. One is often able to build better assemblies exhibiting better service up times and/or reduced costs.

    Yes, when a manufacturer is established, it would make sense after they figure out what works and what doesn't.

    The point was that pretty much every start-up is going back to the drawing board for every part and board, which is an expensive and time consuming endeavor.

    The second point was that if people want cheap games and quick design and production schedules, all that R&D needs to be greatly reduced.

    That doesn't mean cut out innovation--that just means being smarter about it.

    #108 7 years ago
    Quoted from Dr-Willy:

    You need to push for a higher split man.

    50/50 for brand new pinball is outdated and works yourself (and your equipment) into the ground. $0.50 for new/newer pinball (if you are splitting) does the same. In summary, stay away from the 50's!

    I only do 50/50 if it's a much older piece of equipment, often a video game, and often in a location that already has some of my other equipment at a much more favorable split.

    My heroes are the guys that take 100%, and *don't* own the location. These ops (and the location owners, usually bars) see the great, new, well-maintained equipment that is brought in and rotated...the location owners understand they are getting more than a few new customers into their business solely because of this unique entertainment. And in the case of a bar, their existing customers are staying longer, and buying more drinks.

    I don't have that 100% deal, but I refuse to be a pinball martyr at 50/50.

    -Mark

    #109 7 years ago
    Quoted from marcos:

    50/50 for brand new pinball is outdated and works yourself (and your equipment) into the ground. $0.50 for new/newer pinball (if you are splitting) does the same. In summary, stay away from the 50's!
    I only do 50/50 if it's a much older piece of equipment, often a video game, and often in a location that already has some of my other equipment at a much more favorable split.
    My heroes are the guys that take 100%, and *don't* own the location. These ops (and the location owners, usually bars) see the great, new, well-maintained equipment that is brought in and rotated...the location owners understand they are getting more than a few new customers into their business solely because of this unique entertainment. And in the case of a bar, their existing customers are staying longer, and buying more drinks.
    I don't have that 100% deal, but I refuse to be a pinball martyr at 50/50.
    -Mark

    I agree 50 percent is way too high. I don't do a direct split, I keep it all, but I do give back. I put up bar tabs for high scores and selfies with the most likes each month. That rewards players, helps promote us and gives back to the bar. In practice I give back around 10 percent in bar tabs. They definitely make money on people coming for the games or staying longer. I also take very good cre of them so it works for both of us.

    #110 7 years ago

    I have heard from one of the vendors that a new Star Wars pin is coming soon with a one model in the $15k range.
    I guess we may never see Batman 66 nor SW on route.
    That's a shame because at those prices, most of us casual pin players are priced out and may never be able to play these games.

    #111 7 years ago
    Quoted from Pins4me:

    I have heard from one of the vendors that a new Star Wars pin is coming soon with a one model in the $15k range.
    I guess we may never see Batman 66 nor SW on route.
    That's a shame because at those prices, most of us casual pin players are priced out and may never be able to play these games.

    I guess the question is: if you did find those $10K to $15k pins on route, would you be willing to pay $3, $4 or even $5 per play to be able to play them? If price per play matches the increase in purchase price, there may be operators that may try it.

    #112 7 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    I guess the question is: if you did find those $10K to $15k pins on route, would you be willing to pay $3, $4 or even $5 per play to be able to play them? If price per play matches the increase in purchase price, there may be operators that may try it.

    Not if they are the "drain monster" kind of games with 30 second ball times.

    #113 7 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    I guess the question is: if you did find those $10K to $15k pins on route, would you be willing to pay $3, $4 or even $5 per play to be able to play them? If price per play matches the increase in purchase price, there may be operators that may try it.

    BWhahahahahahahaa!!!!

    $5 for 3 balls? Almost sounds like the price of Smith and Wesson Model 500 bullets here xD....

    Can you imagine the amount of time THAT would take for the game to pay for itself?

    First thing I thought of was this video right here (NSFW/the kids):

    #114 7 years ago
    #115 7 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    if you did find those $10K to $15k pins on route, would you be willing to pay $3, $4 or even $5 per play to be able to play them?

    $5 per play seems a little high. Let's assume a current Stern pro costs $5k to purchase. Each game costs $1 per play- or $2 / 3 plays = 67c per play. If we apply the same pricing, to the $15k pin would cost $3 per play and perhaps offer a deal of $6 / 3 plays = $2 a play.

    I would probably pay this price... IF the $15k pin was significantly more fun and exciting than the $5k Pro model pin. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't - I won't know the answer until I can see what a $15k price point offers.

    #116 7 years ago
    Quoted from jasino313:

    $5 per play seems a little high. Let's assume a current Stern pro costs $5k to purchase. Each game costs $1 per play- or $2 / 3 plays = 67c per play. If we apply the same pricing, to the $15k pin would cost $3 per play and perhaps offer a deal of $6 / 3 plays = $2 a play.
    I would probably pay this price...

    you would pay $3 per play with a "deal" of $2 per play if you dropped $6 at a time? kudos to you for supporting pinball but i think you would be extremely lonely at that price point.

    #117 7 years ago

    The new Batman pricing is absurd...I think it will only continue to drive up pricing on the classics.

    #118 7 years ago

    I don't think anyone in my area would pay more than $1.00 per game for virtually any game.

    -3
    #119 7 years ago

    I won't pay a buck-a-game under any circumstance UNLESS I know *in advance* the machine is in perfect playing condition -- and there's no way to know that before the money goes in.

    IF that is the case I might pay for a few titles, such as WOZ or The Hobbit, but the list is very, very short. IMHO once you break the 50c/play threshold everything has to be perfect and the games have to be the ones that everyone wants to play.

    #120 7 years ago
    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    once you break the 50c/play

    It's not 1987 anymore.

    Quoted from dsmoke1986:

    The new Batman pricing is absurd...

    Agreed, also why I was out on SMVE.

    Stern is not getting rid of the pro model. The next title will have an affordable Pro version for operators.

    Quoted from marcos:

    I don't have that 100% deal, but I refuse to be a pinball martyr at 50/50.

    Yup, this x100.

    I just signed another location yesterday, 3 pins, 5% off the top for parts and supplies, 90/10 split after that.

    #121 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mike_J:

    I don't think anyone in my area would pay more than $1.00 per game for virtually any game.

    Almost no one will. That's why you no longer see games in every restaurant and convenience store. The days are long gone when you could put out any old game and make a few hundred a week. Technology has eclipsed that part of the coin-op industry. Many people carry a smartphone and can entertain themselves for nearly nothing.

    There is a lot of competition for your entertainment dollar today. $2 for five minutes of pinball is a tough sell.

    #122 7 years ago

    I have about 12 pins on the floor at my place, all set at .50 cents/game. I ran wizard of Oz at .75 for a while but just as everyone else has stated it didn't make as much money. The .50 cent pinball game is really the happy number for a pinball. At .50 cents a game it would take a long time to pay off a pin but if you keep your machines nice and in good working order you can buy a new in box stern and as long as it's not a horrible title or game you should be able to sell it a year or 2 later for about what you paid for it new. And then keep almost 100% profit. Video games on the other hand do not hold their value. I just bought 2 state wars battlepods and paid about 26k for them and I can guarantee in 5 years they won't be worth 5k. But you can get away with charging $1/play on video games so it all equals out...

    #123 7 years ago

    The ever increasing bias towards collectors and away from operators begs the question, when will the manufacturers disregard the operators needs ?

    #124 7 years ago
    Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

    The .50 cent pinball game is really the happy number for a pinball.

    Didn't work for me. I kept them at 50¢ years longer than I should have. I was sliding into bankruptcy at a rapid pace.

    Hindsight is always 20/20

    LTG : )

    #125 7 years ago
    Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

    I have about 12 pins on the floor at my place, all set at .50 cents/game. I ran wizard of Oz at .75 for a while but just as everyone else has stated it didn't make as much money. The .50 cent pinball game is really the happy number for a pinball.

    But if it's your place, you take 100%, right? Then $0.50 is reasonable to charge and make some profit, especially if the games are not the main business, meaning you sell alcohol/food. Also, you are not traveling around from location to location, burning time and fuel and other vehicle associated costs.

    I have talked to barcade owners, and that $0.75 price point is indeed awkward. You may as way charge $1 at the point, then heavily discount the bonus.

    For a premium type of game, I would charge more. I would rather get $1 and half the amount of plays, than $0.50 and heavy play. The more complicated the game, the more you pay for it, and the more things are likely to break down. And of course, the more wear the game receives, the more it affects the game's value...*if* you decide to sell it.

    -Mark

    #126 7 years ago
    Quoted from stoptap:

    The ever increasing bias towards collectors and away from operators begs the question, when will the manufacturers disregard the operators needs ?

    This has already begun.

    I may be done buying new games...I am scared to see the pricing on Stern's upcoming releases.

    Manufacturers will keep pushing the price until sales drop off significantly.

    -Mark

    #127 7 years ago
    Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

    The .50 cent pinball game is really the happy number for a pinball.

    You are the exception. Pinball will die on route if people do it for .50 a game. It also is way undervaluing what the game costs, wear/tear, your time.

    Reality is .75 or 3 for $2 is more than fair for a newer and good playing titles and LESS than you paid in 1990s.

    Just use any inflation calculation. Back in high school (early 90s) all the hot pins were .50 per play. If you were lucky you found 5 for $2

    .50 in 1994 = .81 in todays world
    .40 in 1994 = .65 in todays world.

    For brand new games, everyone should be charging $1 per play and I will HAPPILY pay that to play the newest games on route!
    From talking with the majority of other OPs the norm seems to be:

    $1 for brand new
    .75 or 3 for $2 for great playing classics or slightly older sterns
    .50 for solidstates
    .25 for EMs.

    I also encourage all those that hobby operate to put out at least 1 EM if you have the space. It allows a whole new population that wants to learn pinball a nice and non-intimidating way to check things out for .25

    #128 7 years ago
    Quoted from clg:

    I agree 50 percent is way too high. I don't do a direct split, I keep it all, but I do give back. I put up bar tabs for high scores and selfies with the most likes each month. That rewards players, helps promote us and gives back to the bar. In practice I give back around 10 percent in bar tabs. They definitely make money on people coming for the games or staying longer. I also take very good cre of them so it works for both of us.

    Quoted from smokedog:

    I just signed another location yesterday, 3 pins, 5% off the top for parts and supplies, 90/10 split after that.

    You d00ds are my heroes!

    I love the idea of bar tabs! It's a different take on the usual, having the bar sponsor or co-sponsor prizes and gift certificates for the location.

    -Mark

    #129 7 years ago
    Quoted from marcos:

    But if it's your place, you take 100%, right? Then $0.50 is reasonable to charge and make some profit,

    You also have 100% of the business' operating expenses. Unless you are getting by dirt cheap somehow, you better have something else making lots of money to keep subsidizing pinball.

    LTG : )

    #130 7 years ago

    You can play economics all you want but you won't get my coin drop, nor that of many other people.

    I have no control over nor am responsible for the ramp in NIB prices. And what the route people seem to forget (which is really easy to forget!) is that what you pay for something has exactly zero to do with what someone ELSE values that thing at, and yet in order to get my coin drop you must provide at least as much value to me as expense.

    #131 7 years ago
    Quoted from stoptap:

    The ever increasing bias towards collectors and away from operators begs the question, when will the manufacturers disregard the operators needs ?

    I agree with marcos, this has already begun at Stern. I tried to hook up a slam tilt switch on my KISS Pro to discourage machine abuse and that switch isn't even enabled in the game! Forget the fact that you have to buy a physical slam tilt switch separately, even if you do buy one it doesn't work.

    #132 7 years ago

    Once they feel like they must charge over $1 a play!?

    #133 7 years ago
    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    You can play economics all you want but you won't get my coin drop, nor that of many other people.
    I have no control over nor am responsible for the ramp in NIB prices. And what the route people seem to forget (which is really easy to forget!) is that what you pay for something has exactly zero to do with what someone ELSE values that thing at, and yet in order to get my coin drop you must provide at least as much value to me as expense.

    I like coin drop...

    #134 7 years ago

    Sometimes I wonder how well I'd do if I just had "new/newer" games,
    but people play TMNT, Mario Bros like it's new to them,
    hell, why not make a new Mario Bros or TMNT pinball companies?

    #135 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Reality is .75 or 3 for $2 is more than fair for a newer and good playing titles and LESS than you paid in 1990s.
    Just use any inflation calculation. Back in high school (early 90s) all the hot pins were .50 per play. If you were lucky you found 5 for $2
    .50 in 1994 = .81 in todays world
    .40 in 1994 = .65 in todays world.
    For brand new games, everyone should be charging $1 per play and I will HAPPILY pay that to play the newest games on route!

    The operator here in town stopped buying new pins after NASCAR. When I asked them about getting new (or newer, used) pins, all I would hear from them is:
    "Pinball doesn't earn like it used to..."

    Their machines were almost always in poor condition, but at least it was ultra-cheap for us to play, using mid-80's pricing, at $0.50 or 3/$1. Their machines ranged from mid-90's Williams/Bally to early 2000's Sterns.

    When I told them people in our league and around town would pay more to play newer pinball, their response was:
    "Thanks for the suggestion, but the market won't accept a price increase."

    I started operating shortly after that.

    For the past few years, I was the only one in the entire region operating new pinball.

    Now, after ten years of buying nothing new/newer, they suddenly have a KISS Pro and GoT Pro. And guess what, they are actually using Stern default pricing! ($1 or 3/$2)

    -Mark

    #136 7 years ago

    $1 is no big deal to me to drop in a pinball. I think that would be a bargain. $1 is nothing these days...you know how much money people waste at the $1 store. I think the whole industry needs to start charging a $1 a play and get customers used to paying it. Just my opinion.

    #137 7 years ago

    $1 a play, 6 plays for $5 - newer pins
    $1 a play, 3 plays for $2 - older pins

    Luckily we have a $1 coin and a $2 coin. My kids hate counting quarters.

    11
    #138 7 years ago
    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    You can play economics all you want but you won't get my coin drop,

    I have found that when putting my personal pins out on location I dont care much about your coin drop (or that of other people that are not willing to pay current prices). I dont mean that to be harsh. I just have found I cant cater to people that only value a new machine at .50 per play. We have experimented and if you drop a new pin to .50 it will not get more than 20% more plays. That means more wear and tear for less money.

    I do just fine catering to those that are in fact willing to pay $1 or .75 for brand new, can't play them elsewhere, and well maintained games.

    I would much rather cater to those individuals and after 3 years it is still working for us.

    We dont really make money, but we have lots of fun and are able to continually bring new things to our locations while slowly paying off loans.

    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    nor that of many other people.

    This is where you are wrong and the coin box will prove you differently. Most people have no issue paying current market rate to play quality pins.

    12
    #139 7 years ago

    I should add that I do find it a little funny when collectors that own 15k plus of personal machines will claim they will walk away from playing a brand new game they find on route because it is priced at 3 for $2 compared to the .50 from when they were young

    #140 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I have found that when putting my personal pins out on location I dont care much about your coin drop (or that of other people that are not willing to pay current prices). I dont mean that to be harsh. I just have found I cant cater to people that only value a new machine at .50 per play. We have experimented and if you drop a new pin to .50 it will not get more than 20% more plays. That means more wear and tear for less money.
    I do just fine catering to those that are in fact willing to pay $1 or .75 for brand new, can't play them elsewhere, and well maintained games.
    I would much rather cater to those individuals and after 3 years it is still working for us.
    We dont really make money, but we have lots of fun and are able to continually bring new things to our locations while slowly paying off loans.

    This is where you are wrong and the coin box will prove you differently. Most people have no issue paying current market rate to play quality pins.

    After a full year as a hobby op, I have the same feedback. We started with nothing but late-80's/early 90's titles. I bought a GB pro super early into the run. Everything is priced at .50, aside from GB, which is .75. There are no bonus buys though. D&D, which has 30 machines started out a few years ago and has never had a bonus buy, so everyone is used to it. If there was one, GB would be $1/3 for $2, but that works out to less than .75 a play if everyone does the bonus. I'm looking at a few different machines to be my next NIB (and likely last NIB for a while) and Alien is one of them. Alien will have to be $1 and if there is a bonus, it might be 6 for $5.

    D&D's newest machine is a TWD, and all new Sterns are .75 with no bonus. They do have a RZ on the way and I'll be curious to find out what that one gets priced at.

    Whysnow, does FT have a spot for a bill collector? If I go Alien, I'll have to have one.

    #141 7 years ago
    Quoted from desertT1:

    Whysnow, does FT have a spot for a bill collector? If I go Alien, I'll have to have one.

    FullT does not have a spot for a DBV. The game has done very good on route (low maintainence!) but the lack of DBV has hurt the coin drop.

    Last I spoke with Andrew, Aliens will have a slot for a DBV.

    We now have FullT at our other location which has a coin machine 10 ft away and we also have payrange on it. That has helped. I agree that a DBV is a must for a game unless coins are readily available.

    I can say that 100% a change machine is more important than DBVs if you get to 8 or more games at a location.

    #142 7 years ago

    Side note ... if I open a location, am I still an operator?

    #143 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    FullT does not have a spot for a DBV. The game has done very good on route (low maintainence!) but the lack of DBV has hurt the coin drop.
    Last I spoke with Andrew, Aliens will have a slot for a DBV.
    We now have FullT at our other location which has a coin machine 10 ft away and we also have payrange on it. That has helped. I agree that a DBV is a must for a game unless coins are readily available.
    I can say that 100% a change machine is more important than DBVs if you get to 8 or more games at a location.

    I pay my location their split in rolled quarters and apparently people were used to asking the bar for quarters long before we were there. We've looked at change machines, but haven't had much luck locally. I talked to my regulars recently and they all said that they would use payrange, so that will likely be happening in Q4.

    #144 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    FullT does not have a spot for a DBV.

    Get a door that does and change it. Easy to wire in.

    LTG : )

    #145 7 years ago
    Quoted from tktlwyr:

    Next week's question, when will NIB prices price out the collectors?

    It's just like the ticket prices to attend a professional sporting event. Ticket prices will continue to go up and up and up as long as people keep buying the tickets. Once the fans dig their heels in and say 'enough!' and stop attending, then the prices will start to pull back. It will be the same way in pinball. However, when the pullback starts to occur, I have a bad feeling the quality of the machines will suffer.

    #146 7 years ago
    Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

    At .50 cents a game it would take a long time to pay off a pin but if you keep your machines nice and in good working order you can buy a new in box stern and as long as it's not a horrible title or game you should be able to sell it a year or 2 later for about what you paid for it new. And then keep almost 100% profit.

    This is the logic that baffles me. That someone expects to use something for 2 years and to get their money back on a used item. Eventually this bs will stop and the people banking on this will lose their shirt.

    #147 7 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Get a door that does and change it. Easy to wire in.
    LTG : )

    I was going to, but now the game sits next to the change machine so no issue.

    As you know it is also hard to justify paying for a new coin door given the time it would take to pay back that non-essential part.

    #148 7 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    As you know it is also hard to justify paying for a new coin door given the time it would take to pay back that non-essential part.

    Keep an eye out for a good used one. Especially for someone replacing one that is missing the plate where you'd stick a validator anyway.

    LTG : )

    #149 7 years ago

    Needs to be a specific style given the pf configuration on FullT will only accept a lower side and dumper DBV.

    I think ALiens pf will have this fixed with the new cutout style like Stern pfs have?

    #150 7 years ago
    Quoted from Tickerguy:

    You can play economics all you want but you won't get my coin drop, nor that of many other people.

    Your coin drop? Obviously.

    Other people? You couldn't be more wrong.

    -Mark

    There are 174 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.

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