JJP has Pindemption & Sterns have been capable of ticket dispensing for a while. No one uses it.

Super Mario Bros mushroom world had a built in ticket dispenser.

i mean ... they are right. and even if Stern slashed NIB prices by a grand, it wouldn't really change anything. sure, it would help out people who are already operating pins, and maybe let them operate a few more, but it will not make operators who don't care about pinball suddenly get into the game. maintenance alone is a huge hurdle. Pin maintenance will *always* dwarf all the other mechanically simpler machines. a crane game has what, 5 switches and 2 motors? a basketball game has what .. one switch, and a scoreboard? those ops, even if they did buy some pins, wouldn't maintain them properly. they'd be dirty and broken most of the time.

Pinball didn't make operators money in the late 90's when they were $3k or so. So, you're right - a price dip won't really change the reality of pinball for operators, and the operators that like pinball enough to put it on location are already buying knowing that it isn't for huge fortunes.

Yes, multiple times, multiple manufacturers.
WMS, GTB, AGC, and Capcom.
They all failed, and not due exclusively to themes, pinball machines need to make MONEY, not spit tickets due to offset maintenance of a standard redemption machine which is minimal in comparison.
Tickets are not money.
Tokens exchange pure for quarters work for security against theft (sometimes from techs).
Tokens for additional tickets are money per say, but don't make as much if you are mixing and matching.
You also have to pay for the tickets (although they are really cheap, just like the junk you get for them).
It really is not an optimal choice.

Pinball Magic was pretty rare with a ticket dispenser from the factory.
I know, I OWN one with a factory ticket dispenser, that is completely separate from say a dollar bill coin slot.
It was cutout in the right front side of the cabinet from Capcom for the first 250 games or so made.
Some people did not know that.

Games did exist and were not retrofitted with some coin door ticket dispenser.

Don't forget either games that provided baseball cards like Slugfest!, Basketball cards like Hot Shots, or tokens and their coin acceptor like Safecracker either.
These are all the same "bonus" concepts.
Good concepts, but not highly successful unfortunately.
A complete bag of SC tokens was $150 from the WMS factory back in 1996.
That was expensive to buy, just to give them away for games, because most people DID NOT put them back into the game to play.
There are others I can list as well.

The photo below is not my PM, but my PtC as I just had the photo handy for insight.

s-l1600.jpg

As a hobby op, Ghostbusters was my first NIB purchase. My next newest title is a 1992 Super Mario Bros. We've been at it a year at my location and SMB is almost 100% paid for itself when you look at gross coin drop. I know that's not actually 100% into my pocket, but that's not the point, it's a mental milestone. They have made enough to keep it interesting for me, but have put $0 in my pocket. It's all going at GB and when that's paid for, then who knows. Another NIB is going to be a huge amount of cash. I could get a few older titles for the same amount and actually rotate a machine in/out once a month to keep things somewhat fresh. $6 really is the upper range of my comfort zone for a single machine, but all of the games with attractive displays are at $7k. I might do that once and if it doesn't work, 3k-4k classics will be my upper end.

We are actually growing and looking for a second location, but that location will have to be more of a destination than an indoor hockey/soccer rink. It has a bar, and I play hockey there, so I like it, but there is zero outside foot traffic. Getting new customers is a huge PITA. Going to have a booth at Tucson Comic Con though, so hoping to get a ton of new eyes checking us out.

pinball is poorly suited to that.

it's interesting to watch kids at a chuck e cheese -- when they first get there, they play the stuff that catches their attention the most, but as they start to get some tickets, the longer they are there, the more they gravitate towards "games" with the greatest ticket payout versus the lowest time investment. by the end, they are basically just looking for slot machines.

and the problem (well, aside from the ethical problem of training kids to be casino fodder) is that the ticket payout urge is antithetical to the fundamental idea of pinball: keeping the silver ball alive as long as possible. when you are playing for tickets, batting a ball around just feels like a waste of time, even if you get a decent ticket payout in the end. it's a bad fit in my opinion.

I would if I can arrange it. I've always tried to do the best I can for my customer.

LTG : )

Yes. See Pindemption for details. Personally I detest redemption games but they out earn pinball. Maybe it has to do with instant feedback for "winning"?

Maybe JJP should (or does) offer a setting where the pin shouts "FIFTY TICKET JACKPOT!!!!" and goes bonkers with the light show. I don't know what motivates a redemption game player but it seems like someone probably has that data and could capitalize on it or design with that in mind.

It's a tough market for pinball. If you play for an hour and you're average skill you'll pay $10-$15. Many forms of entertainment can beat that from a financial standpoint. You have to find a reason for players other than just financial. League play is one way.

Sorry to get off topic, but do you have anything to back that up? I have a pm that the cab has no serial #. It has stainless rails and lockdown bar. The soundboard has one plug that is pinned differently than my airborne's board (silk screening is also different). The board has been reworked and has a number of jumper wires very nicely done on the front side of the board. I have not checked the other boards, but my understanding is that pm and airborne boards should be interchangeable which points to this being an earlier machine.

Nobody doubts your dedication to the industry, Lloyd.
Just like when you demonstrated your willingness to display and allow enthusiasts to play prototype machines, one offs (like Bill Paxton), or one of the original Capcom BBBs.
However, your situation is not even close to being typical.
You built your business on providing a higher quality experience similar to Steve Epstein (past and present) with a variety of amusement products that entice all sorts of enthusiasts in the coin operated world.

To answer the slightly off topic request:

All I need to do is bring out my PM and set it up from being in controlled storage and take a photo.
However, I am NOT the first person to report this information, or the first owner to have one, here is it directly on IPDB.
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=3596

"Notes: Capcom equipped some of these games with a ticket vender. Evidence of this can be seen on the front of the cabinet below the ball shooter, where there is a horizontal slot positioned even with the coin door lock, from which the tickets would dispense. Below that opening is a red light indicator to alert the operator when the supply of tickets was low."

Photo is attached.

The reason that Capcom did this was this was their first commercial released pinball machine into the market, and they were testing and experimenting all sorts of angles and venues, including the "Chuck E. Cheese" direction.
It is even entirely possible there were more than one variation of the "dispenser cabinet" as they ramped up production.
Mistakes made during construction and "one offs" are more than possible based on cabinet construction errors, as operators did not care and the home market for NIB machines was small. People were less critical as long as the damn game worked correctly (a simple point is nobody gave a $#@! about "tournament hole cabinet art plugs" in 1995). Today someone sees a ticket dispenser hole and they want to fill it in due to lack of cabinet aesthetics. Personally, I like history, as it remains relevant, just like this post that diverged into "have they tried X".

Actually in the case of PM, the ticket dispenser was quite aesthetic in comparison to other games of the period.
It "hides" well.

But back on point.
I removed the tickets themselves, and I never used that feature for my personal game, but the dispenser still works that last time I tested the motor assembly.
I cannot verify the total number of machines made with dispensers (~250), as this was estimated from my Capcom marketing sales representatives in 1995 as the game begun production in late 1995, early 1996.
Somebody in Capcom would have to step forward here if they cared.
By reports the cabinet design changed (and the artwork was barely modified for the front of the cabinet to "fill the slot hole" in design).
Basically, the coin door was moved from the left to center slightly as per standard manufacture machines.
It is practically unnoticeable from the FRONT of the cabinet, but if you measure the dimensions of positioning they are different.
The plunger position had to be adjusted upwards to get the dispenser to fit above the right leg mounting point (front cabinet centered) but still not interfere with cabinet construction.
It was a very tight fit, INSIDE the cabinet front.
I would have to measure the coin door to see if it is the same size as most modern doors and frame, but I suspect it was a stock design, or at least very close.

image-43.jpg

Interesting stuff, but saw pictures of another very early machine a few years ago. Stainless rails, different boards, no power board for the dmd as it used a special dmd which converted voltages, and no ticket dispenser. Would be interesting to know what the history was, but probably lost to time now. Also bear in mind the flyer cabinet does not have the shifted coin door you speak of and that would be done before the first 250 machines were made.

Back to the topic at hand!

The game flyer image was a sample game, not a production model.
The ~250 ticket dispenser PMs were not classified as "prototypes" but production, similar to say first ~100-150 DW and the Dalek "Wobble Head" feature games, which I also have one in my collection from the factory.
Capcom was experimenting with different cabinet options at the time of the photo.
Many manufacturers did the same thing with their games GTB/Premier/DE/BLY/WMS/AGC.
I cannot say for more modern Stern, because I took a "hiatus" from pinball in the mid 2000s.
For example AGBGoaWT shows a completely different game that was not even the same as the production model with less features, as they did not have the design completed at the time of the photo, nor the software.
Parts were missing, including the lockbar bolts on the front of the cabinet!

I'm not sure why Stern and other game makers has not adapted this model. The home collector/buyer is going to run out of room and you either need to sell a game to get a new one or pass on buying.
For the operators it would be great. Swap playfields every so often. Game gets stale, needs maintenance, etc.

Higher NIB prices may actually help ops because It will be cheaper for most people to just go out and play, rather then drop 7K for a new game(are you really going to play 7000 games?). Ops need to maximize return as well by pricing games higher and reducing free games.

Unfortunately, that is not how this industry works.

It never has in the history of pinball or any other gaming coin operated device.
Once NIB pricing tips a balance, operators walk away, and just "keep what they have" or sell out regardless of gaming enthusiasm.

Anything more than $7K right now is a complete turn off.
(Operators need $135 in quarters a week for year just to break even, and that can be TOUGH to sustain. It is more like $45 in quarters in three years, and that is achievable as the pinball machine gets "old" in terms of interest).
If an operator looks at their spread sheets and a location, they can estimate income value over a variable period, prior to "rotating" a next new machine to a location.
It is never a good idea to bring a machine BACK to a location that you remove once income drops to an unacceptable level.
It rarely works out in the favor of an operator.

In really robust locations (Disney World) you can make much more money, but the days of $350 a week for months now, is not a norm.
I do remember MM raking in $250+ a week for a while when it was released.
LTG could probably elaborate, as I was not working as an operator at the time.

But what about maintenance?
Operators do not want to pay seasoned experienced techs $25-35/hour to fix a game that brings in less than that per week.
That is why they do not hire knowledgeable techs (only people for less than $20/hour), they just fix the games themselves, or they sell them outright to keep from losing long term money.

Higher prices do not help operators in any shape or form, you just see less machines on routes, just like the last two downside price periods with WMS in the late 90s and Stern in the mid 2000s.

This was one reason why there were multiple title closeouts from WMS in the 1990s.
Operators refused to buy at the factory price due to ability to be successful with income.
They "held out".

Here are a few select "recent" titles that people now hold and see as "holy grails" now that were all offered on closeout due to operator failed sales:
MB, NGG, SS, CV, JM, JY, Jackbot, Congo, Whodunnit, SWEP1, CP, SC, NBA Fastbreak (a BIG one), AGBGoaWT, PP, PtC, AGFootball, AGSoccer, Barbed Wire, Bone Busters, and quite a few others.
I recognize not everyone holds these titles dear, but some have come full circle.

CC was not a closeout because it was the "last WMS DMD machine" and distributors refused believing it would be "collectible".
They were 100% right and it sold for full cost, except for a few lucky owners early in the process.
MM was not a closeout because WMS stopped production even though there was a continued request for orders to keep up with demand.
They moved onto the next title, much to the dismay of operators who wanted their machine orders.
WMS was soft spoken in wanting to "teach operators a lesson", which was just plain stupid.
But if you know who was at the helm at the time, Neil Nacastro, you understand why.
He was fed up with some of the shenanigan hoop jumping between the design teams, engineers, distributors, and operators.
It was like a game of pinball musical chairs, and WMS kept losing.

It turned into a manufacturer versus operator pissing contest with distributors in the middle.
Nobody was happy, except private collectors who swooped in and bought new machines for cheap prices.
I know I did, as did others.

If manufacturers are not careful right now, the same thing will happen again, and when the home market starts to falter and stall again, some manufacturers (boutique) are going to be in serious trouble.
Stern knows the deal, and will buckle down and re release vintage titles again to survive if necessary.
Eventually, that does not work either.
Right now manufacturers are "riding the wave" and squeezing for everything they can, if they are smart.
The same goes for dealers and brokers.

I willing to make a bet most people did not realize this aspect.
The pinball market is a very fickle industry.
Success one day, gone tomorrow, but never really "dies", it "hibernates".

IME, those that are home collectors are not a big % of on route players.

My local operator has about 50 games on route. Most in Laundromats and restaurants. He hasn't purchase a new in box pin as long as he can remember. He won't spend over 3k for a game. They all make about the same amount of money.

I'm walkin baby!!

Higher NIB prices will force people to go out and play. And if they don't I guess pinball is doomed

I totally understand him. I have a new location that wants a game or two. I can't justify putting a new game there but will put in a 3k game once I can get it. I just have to find onr which is hard here at the moment.

Yes but operators will not buy high priced NIB games so then you can't play them...

They will buy them if they make money, right now they do not but when pinball collecting becomes unaffordable pinball players will have to play on route or not at all ( if not then pinball dies)

People can spin it any way they want, this industry is in serious need of contraction and it's coming soon.

Frankly, I'd be terrified if I had serious investment - either in money or in my future - in any of these manufacturers besides Stern and JJP (and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt). We haven't seen this many pinball companies since the 1940s, and the industry was on far more stable legs at the time.

Good luck is all I can say.

That is reverse pinball psychology.
That does not work either.

Pinball is not "doomed", it just sort of shutters its doors for a while until the economy can sustain it again for profit.
Then operators come back, unless they are "hardcore supporters" which provide a unique experience while pinball is "dormant".
It goes in phases as it has for over 75+ years since the birth of the more "modern" pinball era after WWII.

As I have stated, this not the first time this happened, and it will not be the last.
Keep collecting, and everyone will see the phases.

What new collectors should realize is during market "stalls" is the time to get busy and start buying games, when everybody else decides to move on. That is your time to strike when the "iron is hot", not during market insanity period of people throwing money at people at games that have not even been revealed.

Some of my best deals were made when the market "shifted".

The only thing different in this particular phase is there was a gargantuan shift of sales to private owners.
However, machines will remain available in the used market to "percolate" the pinball collecting.
There will be a many options for buyers to find a title produced in the last 10 years or so particularly very nice examples of actual HUO games (which the term will become even further non relevant).
This goes for LEs as well.

For those that want earlier titles, put your collector's big game hat on and learn to start to enjoy the hunt.
I do.

Don't expect games to fall out of the sky in your local area.
Don't be disappointed or discouraged if you cannot find the game you are looking for over the course of "a few months".
That is a drop in the bucket for some titles, if you are looking for something special (or condition) that is not even a prototype.

I wonder if there are any financing or lease to own options that could help. A NIB machine put on location or route vs a private home suddenly loses that HOU smell .......and the collector resale price that currently goes with it.

Bill
Fargo Pinball
http://www.fargopinball.com/
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When the market stalls next time, it will crash the whole pinball fad. And without games on route public interest in pinball for the next gen will not be there.

Agreed, but I would add Spooky to the list of manufacturers I would trust. They occupy a niche market and have demonstrated they can deliver. They kept overheads as low as they could, listen to feedback and have a loyal customer base.

I know my local market VERY well. I organise the IFPA comps and run the most pinball friendly venue in town. I will make FAR more money buying and routing older games than NIB's. Not even close TBH.

I only buy NIB's because I want them and I use my location to subsidise it. I really hope new games suddenly start earning a lot and my WOZ does very well but I bought WOZ because I wanted it not to make money on.

They also have their building bought and paid for and are smart enough to live in BFE Benton, WI were NOBODY ever wants to live! Great place to find trainable labor looking for a stable life.

You are entitled to your opinion, however so am I for the benefit of the community.

This is a trolling post, so good luck with that, whoever you are.
I have already lived through these times, and pinball "survived".
It is hard for anyone to convince me otherwise now, simply because I already listened to this before not just forums, but from advertising, operators, distributors, and even manufacturers.

It happened four times in the past 30 years.
This will be the fifth time in the next 2-5 years.

As I stated in goes in "phases" for both manufacturers, distributors, dealers, brokers, operators, collectors, owners, and enthusiasts.
When phrases are out of sync between the different groups, you just have to recognize it, and move forward in the proper direction that will not damage your interests.
Right now operators and manufacturers are diverging again, and it is disappointing but unavoidable based on the "fans of NIB pinball sales".

If a person does not want to "weather the storm", they move on.
I remember when a good operator friend of mine threw in the towel in the mid 2000s during the last drought.
He just got tired, but at least he stayed around for over 15+ years which is more than some operators.
I can only think of around maybe 20+ that have been around more than 30 years running more than a couple of machines, but rather whole "stables of pinball machines". That is rare for a reason.
It takes special dedication and skills to have the experience to maintenance machines from 1955-2015.

There are for example only a handful of dealers that have operated for more than 25-30 years left in the world as well.
Most sell both new and used games for a reason.
"Pure distributors" don't last long when times get tough now, unless they were large corporation size or primary monopoly in a region.
They in fact usually buy up the small fish.
Even Betson has faltered from its glory days.

This is the simple explanation of a complex argument that I cannot properly describe on a forum.
If you people want more history, enjoy a few older Todd Tuckey TNT Amusement videos, they are entertaining, informative and document some changes over the years.

Pinball's not a fad, but it's a small hobby and always will be, even when it's on the "up" of "ups and downs". Just enough people will always discover it, because it's awesome like that.

There is no right answer, every location is different for sure.

I had a cherry WH2O in a line up of 5 games. It averaged $7 a week. The Met Pro beside it is doing $150.

My WoZ was down more than it was up (1st run ECLE), so it was a dog.

Stern will keep the Pro's under $6K is my guess. It's tough to buy a 20 year old machine for the same price as a brand new title.

I like how you make up facts btw, love it actually. Always provides a good chuckle

I mentioned it to Jody some years back. Only one I know of. When Sega came out with Virtua fighter II, it was $1K more than any other new fighting game. So I and others passed on it. Then Sega came up with a plan through the distributors. Put it on your open account for 6 months or less, and Sega paid the interest. Then I took one. The game would help me pay for it.

LTG : )

Feasible, if the said distributor/dealer work out the specific details.

There are dealers that actually do this for machines which locally off my head I can remember such as John's Jukes in Vancouver, BC, but not the concept aspect you are referring.
They "rent out" a machine for a location at business request (that otherwise was for direct sale), but conduct the periodic maintenance and periodically inspect their property.
In essence, the dealer is still an operator.
Similar to what is done for private functions like parties and weddings, but profits are conducted with the coinage instead of the free play option of other events.

Private non-conglomerate small distributors for NIB games would have a hard time doing this unless retained close locally.
The operator would still be losing valued income.
The distributor is not inclined to do this because it is an added hassle, cannot safeguard the equipment, lack of staff, or inability with time to bring the game "back to an acceptable" condition for resale as a used game.

I suppose if both the dealer and operator were good friends, some type of agreement could be achieved.
It would be a good idea, just the viability is a challenge.
It depends on how much a distributor would be willing to risk in terms of time and money.

I know when I was helping Mountain Coin they did have a program like this to assist operators with a new game (part of a payment plan for lease/ownership), but that was long ago before Specialty Coin bought them out after they decided to close their doors.
Times were a bit more profitable as well, when Music Vend/Dunis Distributing was also active in the late 90s and early 00s before they were bought out by Specialty Coin as well in 2001.
Maybe somebody should bring this up to Mike McWilliams at Specialty Coin in Portland, I would be curious to see the response.

Personally, I would not want to be an exclusive NIB distributor right now if I did not have a stockpile of used games in storage to sell in the long term.
That is why most "diversify" their device selection from Super Chexx, pool tables, multicades, and redemption anyway.
No one wants to squat on a warehouse of NIB pinball games that does not sell. (*cough* KISS LE *cough*)
Otherwise we are going backwards in a time warp.

I would not mind picking one NIB title in mind regarding closeout when it happens, but right now I will be patient as related to the whole operator challenges currently that are rearing their heads forward.
It really is dependent on manufacturer's direction as they apply their continued desires to providing to the home market.

Wow I am surprised about WH20 but you are right every location is different. Different pricing for games too I can get a WPC game for 3k to about 7k for a TZ. A NIB Stern pro will set me back 10k. Big difference is that I will not take a depreciation hit on the WPC games but I will take a significant hit on the Stern (probably 20-40%). Again, local conditions

Why not just have the league in your home, on your pins?

Yes many did back in the day. Nudge-it, bell ringer, punchy the clown, super mario mushroom world, flintstones ICE and more I'm sure.

This seems like a great idea and way to entice ticket hunters who would normally gravitate to a standard video or other type of redemption game instead.

Sounds like maybe you haven't been to specialty for a long time. It's 98.2% redemption sales

Seems about right to me.

I am not sure about that, but he must be paid by the word.

Screw the operators, NIB prices are pricing me out!

...and then one day someone new makes the location his regular hangout place, and for some reasons takes to WH2O as his favorite, and it's suddenly bringing in $50+ a week. OK, location dependent, but at the bar where I hobby-operate 8-9 pins and 3 arcades, we have definitely seen the effect a whale (to use a "free-to-play" mobile gaming term) can have on single games' earnings. Some people just get hooked on a single game.

That said, the pattern is similar here: The newest games (GoT Premium and Hobbit) typically have double the coin drop of an older game. Of the older games, the semi-new Sterns (LOTR and Spiderman) are more popular than the Bly/Wms (AFM, WH2O, FH, CftBL, SoF).

That is exactly what is happening. Here in Oregon I have seen it first hand, about 5 years ago a very popular arcade in seaside that has been around since the 20s sold all of their pins , the owner said they just cost too much money for the amount of maintenance they require and for what they earn. I also do business with the biggest route company in oregon and they have told me first hand unless it's a great account or the location absolutely can't live without a pin they will not be buying any more because of the pricing. More examples, look at Dave and busters, big al's, Johs incredible pizza, bulwinkles family fun center, Chuck e cheese... All of these are multi million dollar companies that obviously see something is wrong with the pinball pricing, because none of the big guys are buying pins anymore. The hobbyists and collectors are doing a great job and obviously there are enough route operators who are still buying them to keep their prices going up. You can go and get a jurassic park arcade for around 12k that will out earn conservatively 5 pins "of your choice" any day of the week. Operators are not stupid the Good ones keep track of what makes money and what doesn't.
I personally love pinball and have a nice collection and have about 12 on the arcade floor at a time that being said they are 100% my biggest headache it's an everyday job keeping them all 100% that when you factor in what they cost to buy and how much they earn I can definitely see why the "ridiculous " price hikes have or are stopping operator's and FEC'S from being them.

Just my opinion

Yup. I have customers constantly asking for the old B/W classics. They cost roughly what a new Stern does up here.

I bring one in (MM, for example) ... then watch the newer/newish Sterns earn double/triple what MM is doing, with less maintenance.

Within a couple months, I'll have a customer make a good cash offer on the MM. Sold! Rinse, repeat ... except now, those old B/W's are priced out of reach in my area ... MM is 10K plus, TZ's in decent shape are $8K plus ... heck, old SYS11's/WPC's with play field wear and shitty cab's people are asking over $4k. EM's that don't power up are $1500.

Price hikes aren't why operators don't bother with pinball. They don't bother because they don't make as much money as other coin op machines, and require a lot more maintenance. Sure, the price makes the decision easier, but Stern lowering prices would not change the low earning and high maintenance (compared to cranes / vending / jukebox / vids / redemption games).

You need to push for a higher split man. Also what prices are you charging per game? Feel free to send me a pm/text/call if you want any advise about location stuff.