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(Topic ID: 273577)

When to accept "you're just no good (at pinball)"?


By curban

89 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 68 posts
  • 56 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 76 days ago by SPeD66
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 89 days ago

    My wife and I both started in the hobby at the beginning of 2019. We've definitely been sucked in, accumulating 14 machines and spending probably an-hour-or-more playing five days a week.

    We have 6 modern Sterns (GB, SW, Aero, BM66, GOTG, IM) and haven't 'completed' any of them yet...and that's with moving the outlane posts in on all of them. I'm wondering how normal this is?

    Interested in opinions:
    - How common is it for owners to have not 'completed' their games with standard 3-ball games?
    - What's the learning curve for pinball, in general - do players typically keep improving year-after-year - or do you pretty much plateau after X years
    - What's the typical learning curve for a modern game - how many plays are typical for typical players before they 'complete' all of the goals on a modern machine?
    - We both just celebrated 49th bdays. Is pinball like other sports where natural skills/abilities begin declining after peaking in 20's or 30's? Why?
    - Maybe sexist-loaded question: I know tourneys are split between men & women. Do men statistically score better on average than women? Why would this be the case? Is it just a larger pool of players? Women have more important things to do than play pinball all day? Something else?

    Sure would like to complete a Wizard mode on one of these Sterns some day!

    16
    #2 89 days ago

    I'm a little older than you, and I'm a terrible player.
    I have fun and enjoy it anyway. I might play a game with the glass off if I get anxious to see a particular game or mode "completed".
    Don't worry about being good or bad player. Anyone who cares about how well YOU play is probably not worth your concern.
    Just have fun!

    #3 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    My wife and I both started in the hobby at the beginning of 2019. We've definitely been sucked in, accumulating 14 machines and spending probably an-hour-or-more playing five days a week.
    We have 6 modern Sterns (GB, SW, Aero, BM66, GOTG, IM) and haven't 'completed' any of them yet...and that's with moving the outlane posts in on all of them. I'm wondering how normal this is?
    Interested in opinions:
    - How common is it for owners to have not 'completed' their games with standard 3-ball games?
    - What's the learning curve for pinball, in general - do players typically keep improving year-after-year - or do you pretty much plateau after X years
    - What's the typical learning curve for a modern game - how many plays are typical for typical players before they 'complete' all of the goals on a modern machine?
    - We both just celebrated 49th bdays. Is pinball like other sports where natural skills/abilities begin declining after peaking in 20's or 30's? Why?
    - Maybe sexist-loaded question: I know tourneys are split between men & women. Do men statistically score better on average than women? Why would this be the case? Is it just a larger pool of players? Women have more important things to do than play pinball all day? Something else?
    Sure would like to complete a Wizard mode on one of these Sterns some day!

    My opinion (excuse) is much of it boils down to Time. My wife and I have been in it for 20 ish years and still suck. Granted we enjoy playing just not to the level of time/commitment many in the hobby invest. For many, playing 3-4 hours a day is a norm?? If we play that many hours per month we are pleased. Time to practice, learn rules, practice shots, etc all refine your skills. At this time however for us we just don't have the commitment to put pinball ahead of other family/life events that we see as more valuable now. Always fun just not something we need to be a Pro at to enjoy.

    10
    #4 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    What's the learning curve for pinball, in general - do players typically keep improving year-after-year - or do you pretty much plateau after X years

    I would say mostly plateau with tiny incremental improvement, offset by or even eclipsed by the decline of aging. Which brings me to...

    Quoted from curban:

    We both just celebrated 49th bdays. Is pinball like other sports where natural skills/abilities begin declining after peaking in 20's or 30's? Why?

    Yes. Ever seen a 75 year old with great reflexes? Bad news, you're two-thirds of the way there.

    Quoted from curban:

    Maybe sexist-loaded question:

    Word of advice, if you ever need to preface a question with this, probably don't ask it.

    #5 89 days ago

    I have been playing B/W games since the 90s and have been fine with 3 balls, but felt I needed 5 balls to get some real distance on my WOZ, GB, and BM66 machines and believe it has greatly added to the overall experience on these games. Unfortunately, I have gotten used to 5 ball play and feel cheated on a 3 ball game now when I play on location.

    #6 89 days ago

    Pretty normal to not complete any pins. I’ve been collecting for almost 20 years and never beaten a pin. Closest I’ve come is reaching the Wizard mode on Stern Potc which I’ve owned 14 years.

    I’ve never reached any other Wizard mode not even Tron or AFM which are not a deep games.

    I don’t play a lot so I probably can get to more Wizard modes but not often and some won’t ever get to the end. I try to focus getting part of the way or different areas of the rules.

    #7 89 days ago

    I've had pinball in my house as a constant for the last 40 years and I have never completed a modern game. I've rolled my Royal Flush over many times. That said, I've also won my local pinball league. I don't think completing a game is the only measure of being good as luck is a huge factor. Also, NEVER is the time to admit you're no good. If you're having fun, you're exactly as good as you need to be!

    #8 89 days ago

    I just got SW a few months ago and still haven’t destroyed the Death Star. I was tempted to take glass off but wanted to do it organically and get the thrill without having just got there with the glass off.

    I also prefer 3 balls but I’ll throw in some attainable extra balls point based but not too easy or too common.

    I figure one game out of 20 I might get far. Some games like SM I’ll get to mid point Battle Royal Luke 20% of the time but others like TWD are much harder to make progress.

    #9 89 days ago

    If pinball is not fun and you are playing and stressed you are gonna suck at it. The best games come when you play for the joy of playing and the stars align. My worst games are usually the ones I take too serious and don't just let things flow. After awhile you figure the machines out where things flow the best and you can really let er rip!

    #10 89 days ago

    Never Surrender! Never Accept Defeat! Press Start Again!

    #11 89 days ago

    I wouldn't sweat it. If you just got into pinball last year, you're almost definitely not going beat any wizard modes or even get to them, regardless. It's just not something that happens. Give it a year or two, learn to use drop catches, dead bounces, post passes, and just practice when you get the chance. Pinball is not learned in a day or a year or even two years. Practice and have patience. Everyone has times when they feel they're no good. You're exactly where you should be.

    #12 89 days ago

    When u say "EMs are as fun as modern pins"
    or worse "Better"

    #13 89 days ago

    Yeah, I still have a lot of fun playing, but I just can’t help but keep thinking ‘I should be better than this by now’.

    #14 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    Yeah, I still have a lot of fun playing, but I just can’t help but keep thinking ‘I should be better than this by now’.

    How far are you getting?

    #15 89 days ago

    Don’t let it get you down that’s what is fun about it, you will continually get better the more you play and learn rule sets. I am just an average player but I love to collect and play just for the fun. I also like to clean and tinker with games aside from playing, that’s what makes it fun for me. Also I will say the most enjoyable part of playing pinball is getting rid of the mindset of just trying to get a high score. Once you just have fun and explore a pin and experience the modes or certain features it becomes a different experience. Then once you get into that aspect you can combine scoring strategies while exploring aspects of the game. At least for me that is when everything clicked

    #16 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    My wife and I both started in the hobby at the beginning of 2019. We've definitely been sucked in, accumulating 14 machines and spending probably an-hour-or-more playing five days a week....

    You should accept you're no good right away, because you just started playing and rarely are you great at games of skill right off the at.
    A lot of us starting playing around 12-14 years old and played all the time for decades...so you got a lot of catching up to do.

    #17 89 days ago

    Never!!

    You don’t have to win tournaments to enjoy pinball. It’s not like you have to “prove” your fandom.

    However if you’re worried you don’t get to see a lot of later modes in your games, just make them easier!

    #18 89 days ago

    Star Wars just about completed all of the planets...think I got as far as completing all but 1 scene...but didn’t complete all of the other challenges

    Aerosmith...got within two shots on last song

    Others...maybe 70%, at best.

    #19 89 days ago

    That's not bad for your experience level. Again, give it time. From what I've heard, you have nothing to worry about.

    #20 89 days ago

    I am not very good at pinball. But I have a great time Trying. That is all that matters to me.

    I like to try. I am of the mind that everyone loses. My opponents, they lose too no matter the skill level.

    I can talk about pinball all day. If you let me. Peace!

    #21 89 days ago

    One thought/question for you - are you doing anything outside of just putting time into playing to get better? I say this because my game drastically improved after I started watching videos of others play and asking questions - why they do certain nudges at certain times, how they handle multi-ball, etc. If all you're doing is playing, then you aren't exposing yourself to new skills & ideas to up your game. Do golfers get better by playing by themselves in a vacuum, or by watching videos/taking lessons/etc.?

    Check out videos online. Dead Flip and Papa are great examples.. these guys are constantly moving the machine on every shot and I learned and improved a lot from watching them.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-WQLGFMr97CQpOQDEvRqAiSqcvSuK11h

    https://www.twitch.tv/deadflip

    https://www.deadflip.com/tutorials

    #22 89 days ago

    I’ll bet if you had just one game , not 14, and played 1 hour a day, you would advance much further in that game. It takes awhile to get shot geometry and strategies down on a pin. Variety is the spice of life and in pinball but it comes at a cost I guess.

    #23 89 days ago

    Stern pinball machines are pretty difficult because of how fast they play. You can consider going into the settings and changing the flipper power down to soft (at least some of the later Sterns you can do that). Also try switching out the flipper rubbers with Titan low bounce flipper rubbers, they definitely make the game much more manageable.

    Don't be afraid to tweak your settings to make the games more balanced to your liking and skill level. I'm a pretty decent player, but I found on my Wonka it was just crazy difficult so I tweaked the settings so I could at least potentially get to the final wizard mode.

    Also, there's probably a lot of techniques you're not aware of. Check out these animations deadflip put on his website: https://www.deadflip.com/tutorials

    In the end, pinball machines are amusement machines. If you find the difficulty to overwhelming, dial it down so it becomes more amusing. If the difficulty is not high enough and it's a cakewalk, dial it up.

    #24 89 days ago

    Get a machine or two that are more strategegic on how you have to place your shot. Maybe something like a poker game. Maverick is pretty easy to understand, but makes you practice ball control and shot placement so you can make you card hands. Alice Cooper is hard as hell but really gratifying. It really teaches you to precisely hone in your shots. I find that if you play games like this and get accustomed to making precise shots it transitions over to other games and makes you shoot better. After putting a lot of time on machines like that, I find I do a lot better on other games.

    #25 89 days ago

    All the games I have kept, are games I cant beat. They bust my pinball balls all the time!
    However at 60, its more about where I am in my meds, to how I play.

    I started on JP, and was kicking ass for 1/2 hour, yesterday.
    Then the med rush hit, and I could not time and hit a shot at all!

    Enjoy Being 40!

    #26 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    Yeah, I still have a lot of fun playing

    Full stop right there. If you could have stopped there, you would be all set. Because this is ALL that matters in pinball. Everything else is just bullshit. Sure, it is nice to win once in a while, but overall this hobby is all about playing games and having fun doing it.

    Quoted from curban:

    but I just can’t help but keep thinking ‘I should be better than this by now’.

    This is garbage. And I have to say, it might interfere with the fun part of it. This is not what you want to be thinking about playing pinball. Try to improve a bit. Start learning small skills. But if you don't pick them up, just refer back to the first part... about having fun in a fun hobby. That is all that really matters. Obviously just my opinion.

    #27 89 days ago

    I started in the hobby in 1996. Coincidentally that's the exact same year I found out I'm a lousy player. Now, if they had a 'fix-a-game' tournament, I could probably hold my own.

    #28 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    Yeah, I still have a lot of fun playing, but I just can’t help but keep thinking ‘I should be better than this by now’.

    You're being too hard on yourself. And with 14 games in a 1.5 year timeframe, your focus is prolly broken. You're not focused on one or two games and having ONLY those to practice on and ONLY those to learn on.

    I'd bet when you are playing it goes something like this:

    "Well, I'm sucking on this game, maybe this other game will be better..." ... "nope. That game whooped my ass. Let's try game #3...." .... "Nope. Trying game #4" and you're pinging all over your game room and your brain is trying to get used to all these layouts, shot geometry, different angles, different modes, different reaction times, flipper gaps, weight differences (slapshotting a new Stern is WAY easier than a B/W) etc. and you're just beating yourself up.

    Stick to one game....like for a month. Leave the others alone. Focus on the rules, the shot geometry, and the rhythm of what to do. Really learn that one particular game. Cause if you're pinging through 14 games, you're going to constantly struggle, and it is going to be a vicious cycle.

    #29 89 days ago

    It’s takes time to improve that’s for sure. I started playing in the hobby 4 years ago and I sucked.

    4 years later and look at me now,... still suck!!!

    #30 89 days ago

    Modern Sterns are really tough to beat... why not take aim at your T2 or TOM and take those to task?

    I'm not a superstar by any stretch, but I do know you'll advance your game skills by flipping less and focusing on controlling the ball. Play one handed and you'll start to see the value in dead flips and trapping up. At least that's how I've managed to get better.

    Also, learn how to nudge when the ball gets around those outlanes! This might seem counter-intuitive, but I like to keep my tilt bobs sensitive... that has really helped me to hone nudging skills.

    The idea is to slow the game down (and not by tightening up the outlanes and lowering the pitch of the playfield). It's done by anticipating, reducing the amount of chaos, and manipulating the machine to advantage you and not the game design.

    Don't give up. Just take what you've been doing and do it differently!

    #31 89 days ago

    To me there is a BIG difference between beating a wizard mode and being able to kick ass and survive for a while.

    Have I ever completed the wizard mode on TWD? Not even close. Got to Terminus I think and that was it. Did I think I sucked? Absolutely not. It is a decent challenge getting to Terminus. It's not Last Man Standing, but it's also not watching the ball drain 3 times in 45 seconds.

    This is a very relative question, and I don't think equating your skillset to how many wizard modes you've gotten to is a fair representation on your skill set.

    #32 89 days ago

    i rarely get to experience any of the wizard modes, however, one thing i do from time to time, is set the machine to 10 ball, and just own the living shit out of it... LOL (although i dont record those high scores. i turn the game off instead of entering any initials.)

    try that a time or two, i have found that its better than removing the glass and playing that way.

    #33 89 days ago

    Heck a lot of people aren't any good at sex either but they keep doing it because it's fun.

    LTG : )

    #34 89 days ago

    Modern pinball games are designed to be easy to learn but difficult to master --> to be almost impossible for 99% of people to master. They are designed to keep you coming back and getting you to "coin up". Ever play Defender or Ms Pac-Man? Same thing. Modern pins are fun, compelling but not easy. The lure of "completing the game" is why so many pinheads love those older B/W games. They are a little more straight-forward, simpler rule sets compared to 2020 machines. They live in middle of that magical nexus where enjoyable, playable and achievable intersect. The point is, people feel like they have a chance of completing the game on something like Monster Bash or Attack from Mars. OK, that said, read Outliers. It takes 10,000 hours to master something. There is no way that playing 5 hours a week is going to get you there in 1 year. So kick back, relax, loosen up the rules a bit in the code options to make things easier and have fun. It's only pinball.

    #35 89 days ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Have I ever completed the wizard mode on TWD? Not even close. Got to Terminus I think and that was it. Did I think I sucked? Absolutely not. It is a decent challenge getting to Terminus. It's not Last Man Standing, but it's also not watching the ball drain 3 times in 45 seconds.

    Never played TWD, but I‘ve watched a fair amount of the series. I was left with the impression that Terminus is somewhere you definitely do not want to be !

    #36 89 days ago

    It took my wife and I both about 2+ years of bi-weekly barcade play to finally start reaching wizard modes and finishing SOME ‘90s DMD games (and Stern’s LOTR), which are much shallower than recent modern pins. Our best indicator of improvement was frequency of earned free games. In the first 6 months, we earned a free game about 1/20 games. 2 years later, I was hitting free games about 25-30% of the time, maybe 40-50% on some games like Scared Stiff and Medieval Madness. But it was incremental growth, and mostly attributed to improved flipper skills IMO. Once I learned to catch, post pass, Dead bounce, etc., I was able to cradle the ball and shoot with much improved accuracy.

    That would be my biggest advice: stop playing for score and wizard modes for awhile, and work on flipper skills and accuracy. If you don’t know where to start, just search for “pinball flipper skills” on YouTube. If you’re both still “flailing away” and never catching and cradling, your accuracy and score improvement will be minimal. I’d also recommend watching some PAPA (Bowen Kierens) tutorials. Observe how calm he is when balls are screaming towards his flippers. He just lets them bounce and settle most of the time, and then accurately hits the required shot. He was a calming influence for me for sure. Watch Raymond Davidson and Keith Elwin for calmness, knowledge, and accuracy. Watch Keith E. and Steve Bowden for nudging skills. Pinball is just like other “sports” in that you can learn a lot from the best players through observation.

    #37 89 days ago

    Never accept! Keep hitting that start button

    #38 89 days ago

    I just get hammered when I play then blame the alcohol for my failures.

    #39 89 days ago

    1.Sell a couple games
    2.Buy some deli meat
    3.Trade deli meat for lessons

    #40 89 days ago

    Get a Multimorphic P3 in that collection! With the Game Save/Restore feature built into the profile system, you can get through a bunch of a game in 3 balls, save your state, then come back later and pick up where you left off with a new 3 ball game! Alternatively, you and your wife could play cooperatively on the same profile to try and work your way through a game. Just have fun and let the technology help you see the whole game if you want!

    Also, Heist kicks ass, online head-to-head CCR is a game changer, Lexy is a criminally underrated game, and there is an extended launch special going on right now.

    #41 89 days ago
    Quoted from bangerjay:

    1.Sell a couple games
    2.Buy some deli meat
    3.Trade deli meat for lessons

    you forgot the fanta!!!

    #42 89 days ago

    Try giving "The Inner Game of Tennis" a read. It's been recommended by a lot of high level players and really helped me improve my game in all seriousness. Half the battle is getting rid of the mentality that you are describing.

    Play around with the glass off too. Practice the skills and shots you feel you are lacking. Struggling to backhand something? Pull the glass and hammer it over and over until you find the shot.

    #43 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    My wife and I both started in the hobby at the beginning of 2019. We've definitely been sucked in, accumulating 14 machines and spending probably an-hour-or-more playing five days a week.
    We have 6 modern Sterns (GB, SW, Aero, BM66, GOTG, IM) and haven't 'completed' any of them yet...and that's with moving the outlane posts in on all of them. I'm wondering how normal this is?
    Interested in opinions:
    - How common is it for owners to have not 'completed' their games with standard 3-ball games?
    - What's the learning curve for pinball, in general - do players typically keep improving year-after-year - or do you pretty much plateau after X years
    - What's the typical learning curve for a modern game - how many plays are typical for typical players before they 'complete' all of the goals on a modern machine?
    - We both just celebrated 49th bdays. Is pinball like other sports where natural skills/abilities begin declining after peaking in 20's or 30's? Why?
    - Maybe sexist-loaded question: I know tourneys are split between men & women. Do men statistically score better on average than women? Why would this be the case? Is it just a larger pool of players? Women have more important things to do than play pinball all day? Something else?
    Sure would like to complete a Wizard mode on one of these Sterns some day!

    I used to be a semi-pro gamer and was recruited by a professional team but after playing with them just a few times I realize there was so little fun and so much stress involved that I nearly stopped playing entirely.
    During the year previous I played the same game about 60 hours a week. At the time I was a student so I could afford to just game 24/7 and that amount of play is how I reached that level of skill.

    I can assure you that the real difference between most professionals and casual players is if you can afford to do something constantly and consistently you will probably get extremely good, very fast.

    I find the problem is the fun factor usually goes down.
    Tournaments occasionally can be fun, but playing for enjoyment versus playing to win yields very different levels of fun.

    Just enjoy your games; you’ll get better over time. Don’t focus on always “winning” or you’ll just burn yourself out.

    #44 89 days ago

    I improved the most after I stopped trying to do well in the game and instead focused more on always trying to bring the ball under control through the use of dead bounces, drop catches, live catches, and flick passes. If you can use one of those techniques effectively every time the ball is headed toward the flipper instead of just whacking it you will get dramatically better. Any time I hit the ball on the fly like a one-timer in hockey I acknowledge that I am what I call "flailing" and I focus again on never doing that. Some people like to play like that for flow but I find that shots made with a trapped ball are so much more accurate that it's almost always a mistake to just take a whack at it on the fly. A great way to build flipper skills is to attempt to post pass back and forth, not playing the game at all. It's not so much to practice the post pass which can sometimes be helpful but I don't use a ton, it's controlling the ball around the flippers and getting used to quick taps and flicks to keep the ball under control.

    Once you have the basics of those skills mastered you can combine them or use them in more advanced ways. A live catch or other ball movement will sometimes result in a ball that bounces off the flipper and then needs to be live caught a second or third time. Just getting used to always having the flipper coming up to meet the ball is incredibly useful. I also use a live catch action when the ball is toward the end of the flipper and I know I can't actually catch it, but it results in the ball lightly bouncing over to the other flipper.

    The last thing that helps me the most is center drain saves, that quick one-two of the flipper the ball is closest to and then the other flipper, it's almost simultaneous but not quite. That saves so many balls that I don't even think can be saved.

    Good luck!

    #45 89 days ago

    We have been playing for about 3 years. We own around a dozen games... and honestly we don't feel any pressure to try and beat a game. We have gotten to the end of some of the 90's games... like MB, AFM, and even the Shadow... but that's about it. We have no illusion that we will ever get to the Wizard mode in JP2. It really isn't even a goal for us... if we can pull in 500M points we are beyond happy.

    #46 89 days ago

    1. Thanks for asking the question! I think it's natural and reasonable to ask about progress! This is a good group, BUT, notice that there is a mix here: some people like to fix games... some people just collect games... some like to play... and finally the last category is people who actively try to get better at pinball. This is a small category IMO.
    2. I am very result driven and I am all about progression in games -- not scoring -- so I am always frustrated by my slow progress it took me 6 years to develop the consistency to beat games on location (ie hard - very hard settings, tight tilt).
    3. I have not been good about practicing ball control aspect of the game (drop catch, live catch, multi ball play) and this is key to success.
    4. I have been very good about developing strategies to beat games with my limited skill set
    - what modes do I do, in what order?
    - how do I bring in multi balls and what do I use them for?
    - how to get all the extra balls I can?
    and so on.

    Having a strategy is key to a game like a modern stern. The games are deep and you need to play for a long time to beat them so there needs to be safe strategies or you're just counting on luck and sooner or later that wears off.

    #47 89 days ago

    Men vs women question: there is absolutely no reason why men should be biologically better at pinball than women: the reason for 2 tournaments is that this is (was -- it's changing!) a heavily male-dominated field and the top male skill level *was* (no longer is!) significantly higher -- so it made no sense to have everyone in the same tourney.

    For the same reason as it makes no sense for beginners to enter tourneys with pros.

    #48 89 days ago
    Quoted from curban:

    Yeah, I still have a lot of fun playing, but I just can’t help but keep thinking ‘I should be better than this by now’.

    There are multiple divisions at the tournaments for a reason. I’m not in the “A” division either. Don’t sweat it. Just play for fun and always try to improve. That’s where the game is at!

    #49 89 days ago

    I'm not that good, but I am getting better. I hang around for those occasional killer balls that make the adrenaline rush.

    For some strange reason, I think I will go broke dropping quarters into and arcade machine, but have no problem with spending thousands just to save a few quarters

    Seriously, I am getting better and get some lucky games in once in awhile. But as the others talk up, it is all about having fun. Enjoy them. Have gun playing them. But keep your eyes and brain open on how the shot is made. Case in point: Most of the highly needed shots are made at the very tip of the flipper; A few need to be backhand shots. But most are at the tip of the flipper.

    You have to work on your reflexes. Especially your hand/eye coordination.

    But have fun first.

    #50 89 days ago

    Keep playing your Iron Man. I feel the ball busters really improve your game. I’m 51 and my reflexes are eroding by the year, not much we can do about that.

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    Lighted Pinball Mods
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    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
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