(Topic ID: 164281)

When the DMD images freeze, it means....?

By GLSP3022

7 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by astyy
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Likely culprit of the issue”

  • Bad ribbon cable 4 votes
    44%
  • Bad ROM 0 votes
  • Cable and ROM need replaced 0 votes
  • Something else is wrong. 5 votes
    56%

(9 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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Data_East_Display_Controller_U8_(resized).jpg
#1 7 years ago

Working on a 93 DE Rocky & Bullwinkle. Game plays perfectly and sounds work perfectly however..the following occurs with the DMD randomly. (Once in 10 games)
-- it will bank out, then show ROM versions, then pick up the current animations
-- it will freeze up on an animation, usually the hat trick; sometimes it snaps out of it, sometimes I have to reset the game.
-- OR it seems to get "confused" as to which image to show due to a lot of action on the playfield.

In thinking bad ribbon cable (it has many kinks) or flaky ROM. The ROM has the window with tape over it. Tape was peeling when I got the game.
Any ideas?
Many thanks all!

#2 7 years ago

First I would put it in display test and let it run. See if it gets stuck in test mode or just when displaying game graphics.

#3 7 years ago

It runs fine in test mode. It got hung up again today on the hat trick animation. That's why I'm thinking a bad ROM.

#4 7 years ago

Evening bump

#5 7 years ago

Not familiar with R & B, but if its a data east that has the DMD controller on its own cpu then the DMD is resetting likely due to voltage issues. The game and DMD run separately, so the game continues but the display resets, shows boot up sequence, then catches up to the game in progress. It will also give weird, half animations too.

I had that on my tmnt. Power connector issues and failing capacitors on the power supply were the culprits. Measure the logic voltages on the DMD and seen if they're within spec.

#6 7 years ago

^^^^^ good analysis.
That three pin connector on the dot controller board was a poor engineering decision.
--
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#7 7 years ago

I found solder on the 3 pins of the DMD controller. That connector seems loose, I'll redo that. Pretty sure that's the resetting issue.

Again twice the DMD animation froze on the hat trick in the exact same spot. Is this a corrupt display ROM?

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

Is this a corrupt display ROM?

Highly doubtful.
Even without a cover on the window, it would take about 1900 years for the ROM to be corrupted via UV light.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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#9 7 years ago

Thanks Chris. Do you think a bad cable might cause that? If Hook wasn't getting sold today, I'd try the cable switch. I'll probably order one anyway, mine is kinked up from where someone caught it in the channel at holds the DMD panel

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

mine is kinked up from where someone caught it in the channel that holds the DMD panel

That's definitely an area of concern. I'd certainly replace the ribbon as the first step. We need to rule that out.
--
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http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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#11 7 years ago

I see the small ribbon cable from the DMD to the DMD controller fail more often then the one from the DMD controller board to the MPU board.

#12 7 years ago

After putting a new connector on the input power cable, the resetting has stopped. Have new cables ordered for the cpu-dmd. Hope this will clear up the freezes. Will order the small one too.

#13 7 years ago

Ok. So I've changed the ribbon cable from the MPU to the DMD, the dmd still only freezes on a frame when the 10 million hat trick is hit.
From my studies in computers and programming, when a program "hangs up" in a certain spot, you have a corrupt or damaged piece of the program. And in a pinball, that would be the ROM chips correct? ??
This is where all of the program is stored?
Yet a lot of pinsiders tell me it's not likely the ROMs can be "damaged". But what else could it be?
And then....would it be the display or an MPU ROM causing the issue?
Any pinsiders have a set they could burn me at a good price? I'm running 1.10 now. I know there is a better version out.

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

And in a pinball, that would be the ROM chips correct?

Maybe. Could be a few other things too, like RAM. I've seen Gottlieb sound boards go haywire at the exact same point and the problem was a failed RAM IC. It would be nice if you had another game to swap boards with to help isolate.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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#15 7 years ago

I have just converted to an NVRAM. No difference. It's just weird. It's only the display, everything else carries on as usual. Sound and gameplay are fine.
I'd love to swap ROMs just to prove myself wrong
.........or right.
So expensive for a shot in the dark.

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

I have just converted to an NVRAM. No difference. It's just weird. It's only the display, everything else carries on as usual. Sound and gameplay are fine.
I'd love to swap ROMs just to prove myself wrong
.........or right.
So expensive for a shot in the dark.

Chris Hibler is speaking about the RAM on the Display Controller Board at position U8!!!!! This RAM would be the first part, I would suspect, available at GPE, part-number 62256LP-70.

Data_East_Display_Controller_U8_(resized).jpgData_East_Display_Controller_U8_(resized).jpg

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

rom my studies in computers and programming, when a program "hangs up" in a certain spot, you have a corrupt or damaged piece of the program. And in a pinball, that would be the ROM chips correct?

While this is true in computer, its extremely unlikely in a pinball machine. Unlike a computer, the pinball machine is designed to execute a single program all the time. When you turn on your pinball machine, the program contained on the ROM is loaded into RAM, once loaded into RAM the computer will perform a checksum against the data stored in RAM to verify it's integrity. The checksum itself is an algorithmic comparison of all the data loaded in memory against a known value; at the end of this check if the value of the checksum is not an exact match with the known value, you should receive a checksum error and the program will simply not run. The likelihood of having data corruption (even a single bit) and passing this check is infinitesimally small.

If you want to see an example of this, you can install FCIV on your computer; see https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/889768 for information. While FCIV is using a much more sophisticated algorithm, the principals are the same.

Using FCIV against a text file containing the text "I like pinball" results in a checksum value of ac33eda3d4b430058f21676915503f77
now if you change the text to read "I like Pinball" the resulting checksum is fe123c23adb57df53f894a95078020a6 as you can see this tiny change resulted in a vastly different result.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

While this is true in computer, its extremely unlikely in a pinball machine.

Thanks Pin Guy....this is what I was looking for. Good to understand how the machine is operating.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

This RAM would be the first part, I would suspect

Having a "duh" moment with the RAM. So if this chip is suspect, it's possible that wherever this "bad image" falls on the chip storage, that area may be trouble?
I'm trying to gather the logic behind this and hopefully help others that run into this.

On a side note...played a R&B on location that was doing the exact same thing but with a different image. DMD Froze up on me.

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

Chris Hibler is speaking about the RAM on the Display Controller Board at position U8!!!!! This RAM would be the first part, I would suspect, available at GPE, part-number 62256LP-70.

Sucks that they didn't spend the extra $0.50 to socket that IC

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

Having a "duh" moment with the RAM. So if this chip is suspect, it's possible that wherever this "bad image" falls on the chip storage, that area may be trouble?
I'm trying to gather the logic behind this and hopefully help others that run into this.
On a side note...played a R&B on location that was doing the exact same thing but with a different image. DMD Froze up on me.

Pin_guy provided a pretty good explanation above. One point of confusion might be clarified...

Quoted from Pin_Guy:

When you turn on your pinball machine, the program contained on the ROM is loaded into RAM, once loaded into RAM the computer will perform a checksum against the data stored in RAM to verify it's integrity.

The ROM image might be copied into RAM, one byte or word (2 bytes) at a time for the checksum operation but the whole image is never copied into RAM at one time. Some computing systems use "off line" storage to store the program, and at boot time, copy the program into RAM to speed execution, but pinball processing systems don't need to do this.

During normal program execution in a pinball machine, RAM is used as a "scratchpad". Every piece of information that changes over the course of program execution (i.e. variables) are stored in RAM. The amount of RAM used varies over time as the memory "stack" or "heap" expands and contracts. It is possible for a RAM with a failed memory location or two to not impact correct program execution, if those locations are never used. But if the executing program needs to store or recall a variable from RAM, and that RAM location has failed, at best the program will act on compromised data. At worst the data represents the next instruction pointer location at which time the processor can begin to execute an area of code it was not intended to at that moment. Side affects are unpredictable but sometimes repeatable.

I can't say with 100% confidence that the problem is the RAM. It's just something to suspect. What we know with certainty is that the running program is encountering a situation that it wasn't designed to deal with. Perhaps bad data or a bad execution pointer or a bad index into a table. Without the original source code and a debug platform, we'll never know.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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#22 7 years ago

Chris, thanks for providing the clarification

#23 7 years ago

So my plan of attack is to install new ePROMs since the machine is running on original code. I want the updates anyway. And it looks like U8 RAM chip will get replaced.
Thanks for all the helpful explanations.

#24 7 years ago

I just thought of something. It's possible that your game and display ROMs are mismatched. There were a few revs of the R&B ROMs and I've seen this cause issues in the past.

Since you've owned the game, has it ALWAYS behaved like this?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#25 7 years ago

Always behaved like this. Always the same spot. I try to avoid the shot that locks up the dmd. At boot up, it shows version 1.10 for cpu and display.

Now tonight....one time the dmd locked at the usual spot, then it flashed the rom versions, then picked up where it left off.

I was told the sound was never updated for en this title.

#26 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

then it flashed the rom versions, then picked up where it left off.

That's the behavior you would expect when the dot controller resets. The controller could have reset due to power inconsistency or the 68B09 might have vectored through reset because it "went off into the weeds".
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#27 7 years ago

Any ideas what was "fixed" in the new 1.30 code? I asked in the R&B club but no response.

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The controller could have reset due to power inconsistency

I don't believe this is the case. It has new tri connectors. And it only ever does that with the lock up. Your "off into the weeds" theory is my guess.

#29 7 years ago
Quoted from GLSP3022:

Any ideas what was "fixed" in the new 1.30 code? I asked in the R&B club but no response.

If the updates aren't indicated in the release notes (might be in the ROM zip) then it would be tough to tell.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#30 7 years ago

Had a very similar issue on my TOM, where during a particular animation the dmd would freeze sometimes. Occasionally I had to reset the game as everything went pear shaped. I changed all the obvious and nothing helped. In desperation I changed out the mpu board and the problem went away. Surveying my MPU and MPU socket I noticed a small amount of corrosion on 2 pins where some moister must of got in. Cleaned up the pins, reseated the mpu and all worked fine. Why I never had an issue anywhere else during the game is puzzling, but It only did it on one animation and it was probably the most complex animation for the mpu/cpu to process. Might be worth having a look at your MPU board, although I know the DE and Bally setup is somewhat different. Good luck

1 week later
#31 7 years ago

UPDATE: Ok everyone, it's been two weeks since I posted this issue. I just received my new 3.0 update ROMs for the display and CPU. The hat trick has worked every time!!! No freeze ups. My son and I have played probably 30+ games. It would have crashed by now.
I'm saying problem solved with new ROMs. I did notice quite a bit of tarnish on the legs of the original ePROMs.
Hope this may help anyone in the future with this issue. Thanks all who contributed.

#32 7 years ago

Is it the CPU or the display that performs this integrity check? If one doesn't it could allow corrupt/bit rotted data to be loaded and executed.

#33 7 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Is it the CPU or the display that performs this integrity check?

I cannot personally answer this. Maybe one of the more tech savvy members can elaborate on this.

#34 7 years ago

Sorry that question was directed at everyone.

#35 7 years ago

24 hrs since the new ROMS installed and still no DMD freeze ups. The game animations seem much smoother in transition than the old set. Something was definitely flaky with them.

#36 7 years ago

Interested in this too as I have a similar problem with my Hook DMD resetting but seemingly it happens more randomly on multiple animations during gameplay. I will be replacing the ROMs in the near future when the fan patch ones are out so perhaps they will solve my problem as a side effect.

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