(Topic ID: 320172)

When Pinside rankings became useless

By Rbviessman

1 year ago


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  • 90 posts
  • 54 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by drsfmd
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 1 year ago

    There's only one solution. Remove the people rankings, and make rankings personal and only visible to the person looking. If they want TS4 to be #1, they'll see TS4 as #1. This makes everyone happy, right?

    Or, (and I like this idea better). Pinside databases all the games, and every time someone clicks on the rankings button, it randomly generates the ranking list using AI generated comments. That'd really get people's panties in a bunch.

    #52 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I dont see how a favorites list is any better than anything else. Toss out the current model so we can start all over again to fix a system that isn't broken to begin with?

    A "favorites list" isn't necessarily better, but adding one would be interesting. Something similar to the old Mitch Hawker's coaster poll, which was pretty well respected (but stopped being maintained). Of course, then we have to listen to people complain about two polls instead of just one...

    #53 1 year ago

    Personal rankings lists...seriously. Each member has their own ranking list they edit themselves. Then you can click their profile and see their ranking list. Those who's opinions you respect and mirror yours you look at their lists, and those you don't...well..you don't.

    #54 1 year ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    A "favorites list" isn't necessarily better, but adding one would be interesting. Something similar to the old Mitch Hawker's coaster poll, which was pretty well respected (but stopped being maintained). Of course, then we have to listen to people complain about two polls instead of just one...

    Sure sure, add one on. No need to nuke everything else on a wHim.

    #55 1 year ago

    The top 100 isn't perfect but it sure is helpful, especially for new boots.

    #56 1 year ago

    Rating systems tend to always break due to over time and fluctuations in hype. Same happens in almost any member based ranking system, like Boardgame geek which is a popular board games site and you have whatever is new and hot getting huge scores, best game ever. Then years later real reviews start coming in and scores totally tank. Older titles that have been in system and have lot more reviews will often get more "realistic" reviews instead of folks playing the new hotness and rushing out and going 5 stars everything amazing best thing ever!

    #57 1 year ago

    I heard this is the thread where I could bitch about $8500 Walking Dead Pro games? Oh, Top 100, I’m in the wrong overly repeating thread. Sorry.

    #58 1 year ago
    Quoted from PanzerKraken:

    Rating systems tend to always break due to over time and fluctuations in hype. Same happens in almost any member based ranking system, like Boardgame geek which is a popular board games site and you have whatever is new and hot getting huge scores, best game ever. Then years later real reviews start coming in and scores totally tank. Older titles that have been in system and have lot more reviews will often get more "realistic" reviews instead of folks playing the new hotness and rushing out and going 5 stars everything amazing best thing ever!

    And then you get the reflexive "this game is getting too many high ratings I'm going to give it a 1 just to counteract that" rebound.

    Most of these ratings systems should drop the 10's and 1's because the people who do that typically aren't being honest. I do like how pinside how such a detailed review system though, it's not just one score you score each individual aspect of the game. It makes you have to think about it a bit and if someone gives it all 10s or 1s across the board it's even less likely to be a legit review.

    #59 1 year ago
    Quoted from Anony:

    And then you get the reflexive "this game is getting too many high ratings I'm going to give it a 1 just to counteract that" rebound.
    Most of these ratings systems should drop the 10's and 1's because the people who do that typically aren't being honest. I do like how pinside how such a detailed review system though, it's not just one score you score each individual aspect of the game. It makes you have to think about it a bit and if someone gives it all 10s or 1s across the board it's even less likely to be a legit review.

    You should just only be allowed to give a 5, because no game is absolute trash, and no game is perfect, and the rest don't matter. 5's across the board! Who's with me.

    -1
    #60 1 year ago

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    #61 1 year ago

    The only thing more pointless than the top 100 is the threads on the top 100. Why anyone cares is beyond me.

    #62 1 year ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    The only thing more pointless than the top 100 is the threads on the top 100. Why anyone cares is beyond me.

    Crazy should start a list of Top 100 threads to go with bubble list.

    #63 1 year ago

    Remember when it was the MM haters vs the MM lovers? Now I guess its Godzilla and Toy Story https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl

    My opinion is these were worthless 20 years ago and it hasnt changed. Good luck finding the answer.

    #64 1 year ago

    Imperfections and subjectivity of a pin ranking list will persist even with a tweak like enforcing a delay period before a pin can be rated. The EM list is also very subjective and often doesn’t seem to make sense. E.g., 4-player Gottlieb “300” is currently ranked 146, but the 2-player version “Top Score” is ranked 85, even though the only difference between them is a slight difference in the backglass artwork. Then there’s the ranking of Hot Tip, my favorite EM I have ever played, at 132, which has even dropped a spot since a recent thread discussing its low ranking.

    Pinsiders prefer different eras, different sounds, different levels of complexity, even in EMs decades after they were released. That’s the case for all pins, like the Pinbot vs. TS4 comparison.

    #65 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I dont see how a favorites list is any better than anything else. Toss out the current model so we can start all over again to fix a system that isn't broken to begin with?
    To me that seems worse.
    At least now, I can tell a troll is a troll by using numbers. There's still going to be all the dumbshit "come on guys we gotta game X moved up make sure to put it on your favorites list!"

    Sure, a troll can TRY that, but it's not going to work. The troll will have to convince people to "trash" the ranking of their current favorites, just to boost whatever machine he's trolling for.

    Currently, all he has to do is get people to vote a 10 on something. With a favorites list, it would be like him convincing you to vote a 10 on something AND vote a 1 on one of your favorites. For you to add his "trolling" machine, you'd have to remove one of your actual favorites - which almost no one will do.

    #66 1 year ago

    While the integrity of the ratings in top 100 is questionable, I disagree with people saying the rankings don't matter. They may not affect my personal enjoyment of a game, but they do affect overall demand and pricing of a particular title.

    #67 1 year ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    The only thing more pointless

    While typing this, didn’t it strike you that maybe this was even more pointless?
    And so starts the “pointless” replies in a never ending attempt to be the most pointless.. The “nothing” thread will have nothing on this

    #68 1 year ago
    Quoted from Zablon:

    You should just only be allowed to give a 5, because no game is absolute trash, and no game is perfect, and the rest don't matter. 5's across the board! Who's with me.

    Funny but removing outliers is pretty standard in statistics. It would have to be done with care, but the odds that a game gets 10's all across the board from someone being honest is pretty low.

    I love metallica for example. almost a perfect game to me but things like the sound design aren't perfect, I wouldn't give it 10s across the board if I was being honest.

    #69 1 year ago

    Recognizing that the Top 100, although interesting, is rather useless should be one of those Pinside achievement dealies.

    #70 1 year ago

    The only thing IFPA seems to care about rating anymore is wealth and free time, not competitive ability.

    #71 1 year ago

    The ratings are full of people who dont understand how to play a game rating said games low because they dont get it.On the other hand it is their opinion.More SALT please.

    #72 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I’m looking down the top 100 and I can only laugh. We have too many non-objective, whiny members creating rankings. Just a couple that caught my eye. I see Oktoberfest at 82 and Pinbot at 81. Then I look up the new JJP game, Toy Story 4 and find it at 150.
    Example: Artwork on Pinbot is 8.066 and Artwork on Toy Story 4 is 8.329.
    Here’s one that really has to make you laugh. Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious
    Several of the overall ratings on TS4 are in the 5.x level. Please.
    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings. Members intentionally trash the ratings because they are mad the game was based on the 4th movie. They are upset the game costs $12k.
    Suggestions:
    People may say the games of today have a different standard, then 1) throw out all rankings that are over a few years old. 2) Force people to review each ranking after a couple years, basically tell them the rankings will be dropped if not updated.
    Members intentionally rate a game low because they are petty. 1) throw out rankings a certain deviation below the standard. 2) Ask the member how many games they’ve played, reduce impact of rating for low plays and increase for higher number of plays. 3) Ask member how in depth they know the rule set, decrease or increase rating impact appropriately.
    Let’s have a truly useful rating system.

    ***NEWS FLASH***

    Ratings are subjective. What you like might not be what others like. I can't stand Pinbot. I wouldn't even have it in my Top 100. And it doesn't matter because ratings are just personal opinion. It won't effect the enjoyment you get from lower rated games.

    #73 1 year ago

    A valid argument can be made that the rankings became useless upon the first subjective rating.

    So, day one.

    However, the question is flawed in that it presumes they are "useless."

    Which they objectively are not.

    They may not be useful for what you assume you can get out of them, but that doesn't mean they have no use.

    #74 1 year ago
    Quoted from Betelgeuse:

    I disagree with people saying the rankings don't matter. ...they do affect overall demand and pricing of a particular title.

    I argue the demand and pricing drives the rankings, not the other way around. Are there really a significant number of people buying based on ranking? I think buying based on theme and game play is far more common.

    #75 1 year ago
    Quoted from DavidLee:

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    [quoted image]

    Come on man, gotta select GIF BEFORE you click add image

    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    I argue the demand and pricing drives the rankings, not the other way around. Are there really a significant number of people buying based on ranking? I think buying based on theme and game play is far more common.

    It could be argued; but then why are there 6 threads a day asking "Should I spend 9k on Game x or y?"

    #76 1 year ago

    The Pinball Arcade app did a lot more for me than than the Top 100 ranking system. The Top 100 gives you an idea of what a lot of other people like. You won't know what you like until you play them yourself. Pinball Arcade gave you a taste of how to play the game, gave you an idea of how it feels. At the very least give you an idea of games you want to play in person. Played MM a ton on my iPad before I decided it was a game I wanted to own. Same with ToM, FT, BSD, STTNG etc.

    #77 1 year ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    I argue the demand and pricing drives the rankings, not the other way around. Are there really a significant number of people buying based on ranking? I think buying based on theme and game play is far more common.

    I think that a significant number of people on here buy games they haven't played before, or have only played a few times at a show or on location. Even with theme being a possible factor, they are more likely to take a gamble on a highly rated game than a low rated one.

    #78 1 year ago

    I agree newer machines are rated better. I got Gojira and I love it. Trying to make room for 2 more, so re arranging basement, they are right after each other in rankings.

    #79 1 year ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    I've long argued that there should be a lockout period, where ratings for a game can be added, but the game won't enter the list until X amount of time has passed. At least half of the games in the top 50 don't belong there... most of those are recent releases pumped up by owners. Eventually they settle down to where they belong, but can anyone honestly try to argue that Elvira is one of the top ten games ever made? Stranger Things at #17? Come on... that just strains credulity.

    Elvira’s House of Horrors was Lyman Sheats’ (aka the greatest pinball coder who ever lived) swan song and personal pet project. He always wanted to do a haunted house themed machine.

    Greg Freres art, Tim Kitzrow & Elvira callouts/video clips, the smooth Nordman layout, the cheesy horror films, hilarious dead heads. Oh yeah, did I mention god tier LFS code?

    The game is a fucking gem, and absolutely deserves a top 10 spot.

    Oh yeah, and Stranger Things is just Attack From Mars… only better. Projector + UV kit is just a world like no other in pinball. Add to that the depth of code and a theme I love? if someone offered me 30k for mine, I wouldn’t even think twice about declining I honestly don’t know how much someone would have to pay me to part with it.

    Sitting at 17 is a crying shame IMHO.

    #80 1 year ago
    Quoted from KingVidiot:

    ...
    Oh yeah, and Stranger Things is just Attack From Mars… only better. Projector + UV kit is just a world like no other in pinball. Add to that the depth of code and a theme I love? if someone offered me 30k for mine, I wouldn’t even think twice about declining I honestly don’t know how much someone would have to pay me to part with it.
    Sitting at 17 is a crying shame IMHO.

    And I seriously think stranger things is a rather boring game. Tried it several times and no, its not that fun. The projector doesn't really do much to me, yay the target faces changes pictures, so what. This again only shows that people's opinions differs and the same will be seen in the top100.

    #81 1 year ago

    These rankings are spot on for TS4! However, it’s ranked a bit higher than expected at #152. But Ultraman now ranked at #173 is way too low. (Now I’m beginning to believe Pinside Pinball Top 100 is not a sham/scam after all.)

    #82 1 year ago
    Quoted from KingVidiot:

    Elvira’s House of Horrors was Lyman Sheats’ (aka the greatest pinball coder who ever lived) swan song and personal pet project. He always wanted to do a haunted house themed machine.
    Greg Freres art, Tim Kitzrow & Elvira callouts/video clips, the smooth Nordman layout, the cheesy horror films, hilarious dead heads. Oh yeah, did I mention god tier LFS code?
    The game is a fucking gem, and absolutely deserves a top 10 spot.
    Oh yeah, and Stranger Things is just Attack From Mars… only better. Projector + UV kit is just a world like no other in pinball. Add to that the depth of code and a theme I love? if someone offered me 30k for mine, I wouldn’t even think twice about declining I honestly don’t know how much someone would have to pay me to part with it.
    Sitting at 17 is a crying shame IMHO.

    I think Stranger Things is severely overrated. It’s a decent game that I only kept longer than usual because family and friends played it the most. Once people started paying stupid prices for Premiums (11-12k), I sold mine.

    #83 1 year ago

    I wouldn’t buy games based on others options/rankings. Buy what you like. Never buy game X because of other options. Do some leg work. Find venues that have the games your interested in and play them. Buy the ones you like and damn the options of others.

    #84 1 year ago

    Stranger things wishes it was even half the game AFM is... just no comparison.

    #85 1 year ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    Stranger things wishes it was even half the game AFM is... just no comparison.

    It is half the game, based on weight. I dropped off an original Attack to a buddy. After moving Sterns around all the time we both were shocked how much heavier it was then Sterns

    #86 1 year ago

    Gottlieb and premier gets the worst end of the bargain when it comes to rankings both in EM and Solid State.

    If Pinside and Podcasters would get their heads out the 90s.

    Williams fan layout vs Gottlieb variaty. Steve Ritchie would slap a fan layout on a white wood and pinside and Co would wet their pants.

    Williams ripped Gottlieb off with "Big Guns" off "Count Down" and pinside eats it up.

    Williams got into trouble when "Bride" came out why, they infringed on Gottlieb table rotation patent, that's why Gottlieb poached the auto percentage algorithm.

    Gottlieb gave pinball to the world. where do you guys think Bally comes from? All that history making only to be relegated to "oh humpty dumpty" and move on it shows up in the ratings and it shows up in podcasting.

    Pinside and Podcasters have its face glued to Harry Williams rear. Williams/Bally can do no wrong, Williams/Bally snobs.

    #87 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bmad21:

    Gottlieb and premier gets the worst end of the bargain when it comes to rankings both in EM and Solid State.
    If Pinside and Podcasters would get their heads out the 90s.
    Williams fan layout vs Gottlieb variaty. Steve Ritchie would slap a fan layout on a white wood and pinside and Co would wet their pants.
    Williams ripped Gottlieb off with "Big Guns" off "Count Down" and pinside eats it up.
    Williams got into trouble when "Bride" came out why, they infringed on Gottlieb table rotation patent, that's why Gottlieb poached the auto percentage algorithm.
    Gottlieb gave pinball to the world. where do you guys think Bally comes from? All that history making only to be relegated to "oh humpty dumpty" and move on it shows up in the ratings and it shows up in podcasting.
    Pinside and Podcasters have its face glued to Harry Williams rear. Williams/Bally can do no wrong, Williams/Bally snobs.

    Poor Harry Williams, he was out of that company long before the era you are speaking of.. Some great work for Stern tho.

    Gottlieb owned the EM era, nobody debates that.
    All the big mfgs knocked it out of the park at different times, and have different eras that they basically controlled.

    Ritchie games introduced many firsts for pinball. Majority of well regarded pinballs could be broken up into some sort of fan... that's how it goes, flippers have a certain degree of angle, and the trajectory is basically a fan?

    Nobody has their head only in the 90s, seen anything about Godzilla lately?

    The EM top 100 on pinside can be fixed very easily. just do a custom for EM, and filter by at least 25 ratings.. boom. GTB on top as it should be.

    #88 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bmad21:

    Gottlieb and premier gets the worst end of the bargain when it comes to rankings both in EM...

    What?!

    EDIT: Oh I see what you mean in regards to Pinside top 100 EM. Yeah I mean there isn;t much voting action here in EMs, that's for sure. Gotts king in EMs & thats a fact

    #89 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bmad21:

    Williams ripped Gottlieb off with "Big Guns" off "Count Down" and pinside eats it up.

    Count Down is rated FIFTY places above Big Guns. Not really sure what you mean, since folks clearly like Count Down better.

    #90 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Gotts king in EMs & thats a fact

    For the 50s, I would agree.

    The 60s Gottlieb games are pretty dull compared to the 60s Bally games. The asymmetrical playfields, and all of the innovations that Bally created set the stage for the solid state era.

    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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