(Topic ID: 320172)

When Pinside rankings became useless

By Rbviessman

1 year ago


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  • 54 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by drsfmd
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    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    -29
    #1 1 year ago

    I’m looking down the top 100 and I can only laugh. We have too many non-objective, whiny members creating rankings. Just a couple that caught my eye. I see Oktoberfest at 82 and Pinbot at 81. Then I look up the new JJP game, Toy Story 4 and find it at 150.

    Example: Artwork on Pinbot is 8.066 and Artwork on Toy Story 4 is 8.329.
    Here’s one that really has to make you laugh. Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious
    Several of the overall ratings on TS4 are in the 5.x level. Please.

    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings. Members intentionally trash the ratings because they are mad the game was based on the 4th movie. They are upset the game costs $12k.

    Suggestions:
    People may say the games of today have a different standard, then 1) throw out all rankings that are over a few years old. 2) Force people to review each ranking after a couple years, basically tell them the rankings will be dropped if not updated.

    Members intentionally rate a game low because they are petty. 1) throw out rankings a certain deviation below the standard. 2) Ask the member how many games they’ve played, reduce impact of rating for low plays and increase for higher number of plays. 3) Ask member how in depth they know the rule set, decrease or increase rating impact appropriately.

    Let’s have a truly useful rating system.

    17
    #2 1 year ago

    But that's how most rating systems work. Take Rotten Tomatoes. Do you really think Slaxx, a 2021 horror film about a possessed pair of jeans (rated 96%) is a better movie than John Carpenter's The Thing (rated 83%)?

    You can't look at the raw number in a vacuum. Like you said, you have to look into what is behind the rankings.

    17
    #3 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Let’s have a truly useful rating system.

    Good luck. No matter how you slice the data, it's an amalgam of subjective personal opinions, each with their own biases.

    There is no objective standard of good or bad in any creative field. Once you internalize this truth, it frees you from caring about things like pinside ratings, grammy awards, etc. It's just coke vs. pepsi on a grand scale. I couldn't tell you which games are in the top 10 or 100, because I never click on it, because it means about as much to me yesterday's lottery numbers.

    That may sound like a cold & detached mindset, but the upshot is your own personal taste become supreme & absolute. Why would I care if anyone else loves or hates a painting, song, or pinball machine that I love? Their preferences have zero effect on my enjoyment.

    #4 1 year ago

    The Top 100 has some biases towards newer games, especially Stern pins, but as a general guide I feel like it's decent. There are some super overrated games that are probably ranked too high, and some games that are ranked highly because they're the shiny, new pin that everyone wants, but if you played any game in the Top 100 you'd likely have a good time.

    16
    #5 1 year ago

    Useless ? No.Is it my top 100 choices in order ?no .Amusing at times ? Yes.Manipulated by some ?Yes.

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    #6 1 year ago

    The top 100 can be helpful, but most people don't use it to its full potential. Breaking down ratings by years or manufacture is fun. The more ratings a game gets the more it finds its spot. JJP pirates was number 1 because all the CE owners gave it 10s across the board. after about 6 months it dropped fast. Just like Yelp or Google reviews, you need to get in there and read a few (lots) of comments.

    I would like it if we had the option on our personal page to list our favorite 10 games. Then you can tally up all the votes and see what games really get the most votes.

    #7 1 year ago

    I disagree with your thread title because its never been useful to me. Even ratings that are based on recent results (think IFPA ratings) can never be perfectly accurate and those are based on objective criteria such as win/loss ratio. A totally subjective list will only be useful to a small subset of users and probably in different, individual ways.

    #8 1 year ago

    I totally agree here. Though I am thankful Godzilla was so high on rankings. It got my attention as I don’t care for the theme at all. After playing it and buying it based on rankings, I love the game and have grown to love the theme.

    I will also be getting a Toy Story to sit right next to it with no regrets and high confidence they will be close in terms of rankings within our family as we liked both Wonka and Dialed In.

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Example: Artwork on Pinbot is 8.066 and Artwork on Toy Story 4 is 8.329.
    Here’s one that really has to make you laugh. Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious
    Several of the overall ratings on TS4 are in the 5.x level. Please.
    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings. Members intentionally trash the ratings because they are mad the game was based on the 4th movie. They are upset the game costs $12k.

    I suppose when I look as a license, I think more about how that license is used for a rating, more than just trying to think of that licensed asset alone being better than something else, particularly a classic. You bring up pin*bot as an example, but the game actually has amazing music tracks, and variety throughout the game, all transitioning very smoothly as an experience through the game. For me, it's one of the best graphic and musical experiences in pinball.

    -4
    #10 1 year ago

    Sounds like many people have given up on the system. Too bad. Just keep in mind this is seen by those just getting into pinball as well. I certainly can judge a good game on my own. I would just hope our community would be much less biased.

    Too bad we can’t do better as veteran pinball players.

    13
    #11 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Sounds like many people have given up on the system.

    Sounds like too many people assign meaning to a system that is inherently meaningless. We should do better.

    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    I disagree with your thread title because its never been useful to me. Even ratings that are based on recent results (think IFPA ratings) can never be perfectly accurate and those are based on objective criteria such as win/loss ratio. A totally subjective list will only be useful to a small subset of users and probably in different, individual ways.

    Two buddies of mine are insane players. They absolutely kick ass at pinball. The are easily top 100 players in the world.
    We are talking marathon 45 min balls and get 4-5 replays IN A SINGLE GAME.

    They refuse to play competitively, yet they have demolished comp players in “casual” games.

    The IFPA ratings are meaningless once you watch an unranked “casual” spank a group of seasoned comp players.

    44
    #13 1 year ago

    How to tell someone is a butthurt toy story owner without them saying they're a butthurt toy story owner.

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    How to tell someone is a butthurt toy story owner with* them saying they're a butthurt toy story owner.

    *without

    #15 1 year ago

    What were you using these rankings for that you no longer can't? When I was new to the hobby and hadn't played many games it was helpful to see what people considered really good I should seek out and try...but many years later I just like what I like...who cares, literally at all, how a game is ranked on this list? Does it stop you from enjoying a game?

    25
    #16 1 year ago

    Pinbot is a better game than TS4. Prove me wrong.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    ...Just keep in mind this is seen by those just getting into pinball as well. I certainly can judge a good game on my own....

    Then start reviewing some of the games you own; Specifically the ones made before 10 years ago.
    Also you can go in an alter your own 16 ratings which don't say anything; which is also offering no insight into anything.

    #18 1 year ago

    Doesn't remember when I ever cared about rankings. Checks..nope. Still don't.

    The only thing I ever use any rankings for is to maybe become aware of something I already didn't know about -- usually movies or video games.

    Rankings are always subjective and biased simply based on who does or doesn't rate.

    The so many threads complaining about the ratings pop up makes me wonder what peoples true object is. Seems like it's mostly about epeen or reassurance when you spent an insane amount on a game.

    This is why you PLAY a game before you buy it.

    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Then I look up the new JJP game, Toy Story 4 and find it at 150.
    Example: Artwork on Pinbot is 8.066 and Artwork on Toy Story 4 is 8.329.

    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Here’s one that really has to make you laugh. Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious
    Several of the overall ratings on TS4 are in the 5.x level. Please.

    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings...

    Quoted from Zablon:

    The so many threads complaining about the ratings pop up makes me wonder what peoples true object is. Seems like it's mostly about epeen or reassurance when you spent an insane amount on a game.

    Yeah not really hard to figure out is it? Wonder whom owns a TS4?

    #20 1 year ago

    Here is the solution. When you view the top 100 take everything you said into account then use your judgement to come to some conclusion. It is known as critical thinking.

    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I’m looking down the top 100 and I can only laugh. We have too many non-objective, whiny members creating rankings. Just a couple that caught my eye. I see Oktoberfest at 82 and Pinbot at 81. Then I look up the new JJP game, Toy Story 4 and find it at 150.
    Example: Artwork on Pinbot is 8.066 and Artwork on Toy Story 4 is 8.329.
    Here’s one that really has to make you laugh. Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious
    Several of the overall ratings on TS4 are in the 5.x level. Please.
    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings. Members intentionally trash the ratings because they are mad the game was based on the 4th movie. They are upset the game costs $12k.
    Suggestions:
    People may say the games of today have a different standard, then 1) throw out all rankings that are over a few years old. 2) Force people to review each ranking after a couple years, basically tell them the rankings will be dropped if not updated.
    Members intentionally rate a game low because they are petty. 1) throw out rankings a certain deviation below the standard. 2) Ask the member how many games they’ve played, reduce impact of rating for low plays and increase for higher number of plays. 3) Ask member how in depth they know the rule set, decrease or increase rating impact appropriately.
    Let’s have a truly useful rating system.

    -1
    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

    Two buddies of mine are insane players. They absolutely kick ass at pinball. The are easily top 100 players in the world.
    We are talking marathon 45 min balls and get 4-5 replays IN A SINGLE GAME.
    They refuse to play competitively, yet they have demolished comp players in “casual” games.
    The IFPA ratings are meaningless once you watch an unranked “casual” spank a group of seasoned comp players.

    I used to host IFPA tournaments. Stopped doing a couple years ago. We prefer to have fun instead of stress over pinball. To each his own.

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I used to host IFPA tournaments. Stopped doing a couple years ago. We prefer to have fun instead of stress over pinball. To each his own.

    This thread really hammered that point home I think.

    10
    #23 1 year ago

    I can't understand how TS4 is rated so dam high!

    #24 1 year ago

    I've stated this before, but I do think we could have a much better rating system (that would be much harder to be manipulated).

    Instead of having members rate each machine, have them list their top 20 (or so) machines (in order). Then a game's ranking could be computed by how many members have that game in their list (and at what position).

    No one would be able to "trash" a game by giving it a 1. If they don't like a game, the worst they can do is exclude it from their favorites list.

    And no one can just give 10s to all the games they own (or to whatever the new game is). They would have to pick a favorite, a second, and so on.

    It would force people to rate games against other games, and not on a 1 to 10 scale.

    #25 1 year ago
    Quoted from Deez:

    How to tell someone is a butthurt toy story owner without them saying they're a butthurt toy story owner.

    I wager a guess that this is a butthurt TS4 pinvestor, upset that the recent gravy train of playing a brand new pinball machine for 6 months until it’s boring and then selling it for a nice profit isn’t likely going to work for this title. To the contrary. It may even be a quite expensive 6 months.

    Why else would one care so much about a private rating system? If you like TS4 (I actually do but still wouldn’t pay $12k (!) for one), just play it. Have fun and forget about the ratings. Those are only relevant if you want to sell it.

    #26 1 year ago

    There is a bias towards the newer games. You could set a rule that pins within their first five years of release are not eligible for inclusion on Top 100 list, to see if it can “stand the test of time” after the release hype fades away.

    On the other hand, you can make a case that some new pins are so groundbreaking that they deserve a place on the list right away. (E.g., Keith Elwin’s recent work.)

    #27 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I used to host IFPA tournaments. Stopped doing a couple years ago. We prefer to have fun instead of stress over pinball. To each his own.

    LMAO

    Yes you prefer to stress out over pinball machine rankings rather than player rankings.

    Glad you are mr. cool and have your priorities in order. Getting upset over rando opinions on a pinball machine doesn't seem so "fun" to me. To each his own.

    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    Instead of having members rate each machine, have them list their top 20 (or so) machines (in order).

    Man, I guess the rating system could get worse.

    #29 1 year ago

    I've long argued that there should be a lockout period, where ratings for a game can be added, but the game won't enter the list until X amount of time has passed. At least half of the games in the top 50 don't belong there... most of those are recent releases pumped up by owners. Eventually they settle down to where they belong, but can anyone honestly try to argue that Elvira is one of the top ten games ever made? Stranger Things at #17? Come on... that just strains credulity.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from Striker:

    There is a bias towards the newer games. You could set a rule that pins within their first five years of release are not eligible for inclusion on Top 100 list, to see if it can “stand the test of time” after the release hype fades away.
    On the other hand, you can make a case that some new pins are so groundbreaking that they deserve a place on the list right away. (E.g., Keith Elwin’s recent work.)

    Completely agree with this. There is just so much hype for newer pins that people's judgement gets a little fuzzy when assessing how good they really are. Godzilla is no doubt a fun, awesome looking pin, but no way in hell is it the best pin ever made. Not even top 20 imo.

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Music on Pinbot is 7.476 and Toy Story 4 7.506. That’s hilarious

    The music comparison between an old pin and a new pin got me good!!

    The TS4 music may be rated a bit too low because people are overall mad about the game, but there should be zero surprise about many older games getting higher ratings on sound and music than many newer pins. IMO most modern pins suffer when it comes to sound design because there’s hardly any limit to what you can do with the components they’re built on, which enables a “more is more” design philosophy, which leads to an incoherent mess coming out of the speakers. I would say far more older pins have great sound design than newer ones do precisely because of how limited those old systems were. Every single sound/music element that was included had to matter because there was no room for fluff.

    -1
    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from Wiggles:

    Godzilla is no doubt a fun, awesome looking pin, but no way in hell is it the best pin ever made. Not even top 20 imo.

    It doesn't even belong in the top 20 from Stern.

    -1
    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    I've stated this before, but I do think we could have a much better rating system (that would be much harder to be manipulated).
    Instead of having members rate each machine, have them list their top 20 (or so) machines (in order). Then a game's ranking could be computed by how many members have that game in their list (and at what position).
    No one would be able to "trash" a game by giving it a 1. If they don't like a game, the worst they can do is exclude it from their favorites list.
    And no one can just give 10s to all the games they own (or to whatever the new game is). They would have to pick a favorite, a second, and so on.
    It would force people to rate games against other games, and not on a 1 to 10 scale.

    That would be better than we have. But I think some statistical math added to the current system could work, as I mentioned before. Throw out ratings way out of the bell curve.

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    That would be better than we have. But I think some statistical math added to the current system could work, as I mentioned before. Throw out ratings way out of the bell curve.

    But then what would that do to the rating of games that really suck? Like Toy Story 4 for instance.

    -1
    #35 1 year ago
    Quoted from Striker:

    There is a bias towards the newer games. You could set a rule that pins within their first five years of release are not eligible for inclusion on Top 100 list, to see if it can “stand the test of time” after the release hype fades away.
    On the other hand, you can make a case that some new pins are so groundbreaking that they deserve a place on the list right away. (E.g., Keith Elwin’s recent work.)

    The system has that in that a game requires a certain number of ratings to be in the top 100. Maybe the number could be tweaked. My only concern there is that I do like to look at ratings before I buy a game. It’s one of the criteria I use to put a game in my business. Others, like me I’m sure, would like some early feedback as waiting too long would result in the game being out of stock with distributors.

    #36 1 year ago

    A game that just came out should not even be in the top 100 let alone the top 10. Staying power is what ratings are about. Even then, your opinion isn't going to be the same as everyone elses.

    I hate Addams Family...yet it is one of the most sought after games. It's just how it is.

    #37 1 year ago

    I'd take pinbot over TS4 any day!! TS4 is immature & belongs in a little girls bedroom. Top 100 is completely useless but in this instance it's right.

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I do like to look at ratings before I buy a game. It’s one of the criteria I use to put a game in my business.

    Hopefully you look beyond the top 10 as many new and older games outside of it continue to earn a crapload on location.

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    Throw out ratings way out of the bell curve.

    Because if your personal likes and dislikes do not match the herd, you do not exist and your opinions have no value.

    -1
    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from Vino:

    Hopefully you look beyond the top 10 as many games outside of it continue to earn a crapload on location.

    Absolutely! Since I have 35 pins in the business, that’s kinda necessary. Lol

    My revenue model is a little different, but your point is absolutely true. Again, pinside is just one criteria I use. Everyone has different likes and dislikes, but the average rating on pinside would ideally match my customers’ likes as well.

    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    I pick on TS4 because I know what’s going on behind they ratings. Members intentionally trash the ratings because they are mad the game was based on the 4th movie. They are upset the game costs $12k.

    That's your assumption. I know there have been threads about how bad the sound design is on TS4 for example. (it's like ADD in audio form) I am not interested in Toy Story at all so I don't care which one its based on, but I can see there are a lot of valid criticisms of that machine beyond the price and theme. Not everyone is going to like what you like.

    The bigger problem I see with the rankings is that new games always get skewed high because they are exciting and different and lots of people are trying them. It takes time for the ratings to sort themselves out.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Man, I guess the rating system could get worse.

    So in what way would this be worse...?

    If you have a valid point or critique to make, please do. Just saying "it sucks" doesn't help anyone.

    #43 1 year ago

    You sound like a disgruntled Toy Story owner. And don't insult Pinbot and Oktoberfest by comparing them to TS4.

    #44 1 year ago

    Without the rankings how will I know which just released pin is the best of a time?

    #45 1 year ago

    Good gosh, do you not have anything better to get your knickers in a knot over.

    #46 1 year ago

    Rather than getting to wrapped up in where a pin sits on the list, I do read many of the reviews, especially those by seasoned reviewers (like @caucasian2step). However, this is still just a guide, as it always comes down to how much it resonates with me. But I am glad to have a place to hear other opinions and to point out pluses and minuses.

    #47 1 year ago

    ReadyPO Agreed. I also watch some streams. But even at that, I saw some streamers go out and trash games before they even played it. Don’t use their opinion anymore.

    What else do you use to evaluate a game before purchase. Always looking for other insights.

    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rbviessman:

    What else do you use to evaluate a game before purchase. Always looking for other insights.

    I play it

    #49 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    If you have a valid point or critique to make, please do. Just saying "it sucks" doesn't help anyone.

    I dont see how a favorites list is any better than anything else. Toss out the current model so we can start all over again to fix a system that isn't broken to begin with?
    To me that seems worse.
    At least now, I can tell a troll is a troll by using numbers. There's still going to be all the dumbshit "come on guys we gotta game X moved up make sure to put it on your favorites list!"

    This goes without getting into throwing out decades of data because "Its old." The notion, laid out by the OP perfectly as usual, that an older game could not possibly have better audio than a new one us painfully moronic. Yet we hear this consistently with these threads. 'OMG the light shows are so killer now no old game can compete!" I believe my personal rock bottom came when people proposed that pinsiders that hadn't logged on in a year have their ratings removed....as in Pinsiders whom are dead. yikes

    #50 1 year ago

    If ratings were deleted after a period of time if not updated, I'd like the comments to stay. I read a lot of comments on ratings if I haven't had a chance to play a pin. I can see ok people like/ don't like the gameplay because it's got lots of hurry ups or combos or it flows well etc and then decide if I think I'd like it based on the comments. Or someone loves the game but hates the art or music and that's super important to them but it's not to me so maybe I'd still like the game etc. The comments are where the information is, the rating is an opinion, the in depth comments help you decide if you might agree with the rating.

    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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