(Topic ID: 179531)

What's the diff between a 30-750 and 23-600 flipper coil?


By goingincirclez

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 9 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by zacaj
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Rebuilding the flippers on my Pinbot rescue. It's been playing fine, but I like to have the original travel without slop and worn coil stops, etc., and had every reason to think the original parts were still there.

To my surprise it turns out that the coils were different as a result of work done before I got it.

One is a 23-600. The other is a 30-750. Both are OEM Williams blue-label coils.

So in theory, the larger wire with fewer windings (23-600), should have been stronger. But it didn't seem to be noticeably so to me. Apparent response and speed was the same. Can't say I noticed any playability issues. So does it just happen that the smaller wire with more windings (30-750) average out pretty close to identical, performance wise?

~~~~~

Complicating my situation somewhat: the game manual calls for 23-600. But the one in my game overheated at some point and trying to replace the sleeve was very difficult now the new plungers do not fit or operate nicely. But the 30-750 in the game is just fine, AND I happen to have a spare 30-750 as well... although it's a Pincoil "Yellow Label" and supposedly yellow means "weak". So I could have a matched pair by spec, but not by color or conventional wisdom, nor what the manual calls for. Sigh.

At any rate, how much would this affect the game?

#2 3 years ago

Greetings!
I looked up the Pincoil SFL 19-400/30-750 and the photo shows it rated at 28 volts.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SFL-19-400_30-7

The Williams 23-600/30-2600 coil on Marco's website shows it to be rated at 50 volts.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SFL-23-600_30-2

I would just buy a pair of new 23-600 coils/sleeves and do your rebuild from there. At least you are using the factory recommended part numbers. It seems that one was used on 25 volt flipper games around 1980 like Firepower and Black Knight. Then around 1984 they changed to the 50 volt coils for games like Pinbot, Sorcerer, and High Speed.

#3 3 years ago

7-150

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from Catalyze:

I looked up the Pincoil SFL 19-400/30-750 and the photo shows it rated at 28 volts.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SFL-19-400_30-7
The Williams 23-600/30-2600 coil on Marco's website shows it to be rated at 50 volts.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SFL-23-600_30-2

See, this is what I find fascinating. On paper, you'd expect the 28V coil to be far less powerful and responsive. But it's not! All shots are makeable, and response time is fairly consistent (aside from the slop of worn links) and equal to the stronger 50V coil. I've been playing the game for almost 6 weeks now and there's been no hint that one coil is almost twice as powerful as the other by rating.

Which begs the question as to what's really going on here?

I've even considered the possibility that maybe a coil was re-labeled incorrectly, but that seems to be unlikely.

#5 3 years ago

It'd not twice as powerful though. I don't know resistance off hand but you're running the 28V coil at 50V, so actually it'd end up a bit stronger than the 50V coil, which is 'weaker' since it knows it'll have more voltage driving it. I've been trying to figure out exactly how the math works for all this without success though...

The big thing to note is that the 28V cool has a much stronger hold winding (to account for the weaker voltage it was designed for), so if you gold your flippers up it's going to get hotter a lot quicker than the correct coil.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The big thing to note is that the 28V cool has a much stronger hold winding (to account for the weaker voltage it was designed for), so if you gold your flippers up it's going to get hotter a lot quicker than the correct coil.

Indeed, and yet it's the *correct* coil that melted down to an extent, and is giving me trouble. Go figure! Seems everything I had to fix in this game was sort of the inverse of expectation.

#7 3 years ago

Well......(deep subject)....maybe the missing correct coil got old/swelled/hot and just broke so it got replaced with whatever was handy. Your other correct coil is even older and is starting to go out like the missing one did. So you have an old worn correct one and a newer incorrect one. Time to get two new correct coils and go buy a Black Knight for your 25 volt coil....lol. Good luck and post a photo or two of your game.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

you're running the 28V coil at 50V, so actually it'd end up a bit stronger than the 50V coil, which is 'weaker' since it knows it'll have more voltage driving it. I've been trying to figure out exactly how the math works for all this without success though...

Ohm's law V=IR
Voltage = Intensity (current/amps) times Resistance
You know the voltage and the resistance (when new and as measured in your game). Solve for I
I=V/R to find the amperage for each coil.

Your 30-750 is the hold windings. The coil is 19-400/30-750 wired in series. Measure the 19-400 part to get R. I don't see it on the chart at https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html
There is a 21-400 there R is 2.3 The 19-400 R is less. Measure it.
12.2amps=28v/2.3ohms
21.7amps=50v/2.3ohms

Your 23-600 has an R of 4.7 ohms according to Marco
I=V/R.
10.6amps=50v/4.7ohms

So your 19-400 at 28v is a bit stronger at 50v is a lot stronger.
I do not guarantee my math is right.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Ohm's law V=IR
Voltage = Intensity (current/amps) times Resistance
You know the voltage and the resistance (when new and as measured in your game). Solve for I
I=V/R to find the amperage for each coil.
Your 30-750 is the hold windings. The coil is 19-400/30-750 wired in series. Measure the 19-400 part to get R. I don't see it on the chart at https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html
There is a 21-400 there R is 2.3 The 19-400 R is less. Measure it.
12.2amps=28v/2.3ohms
21.7amps=50v/2.3ohms
Your 23-600 has an R of 4.7 ohms according to Marco
I=V/R.
10.6amps=50v/4.7ohms
So your 19-400 at 28v is a bit stronger at 50v is a lot stronger.
I do not guarantee my math is right.

That's how I understand it too, but that doesn't hold up to how the games actually play for me
The coils in my Hot Tip are 1.1ohms @ 28V = 25A.
Black Knight are 0.9ohms @ 28V = 25.2A
T2 are 4ohms @ 50V = 12.5A

Black Knight's flippers blow Hot Tip away, and they still pale in comparison to any fliptronics game. I can understand the Hot Tip vs Black Knight a bit since Hot Tip has worse designed mechs, but BK and T2 have almost the same mechs in them...

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