I'm getting so sick of people bashing the iron hide playfield. Take the control gate off and I bet only 5-10% of the people playing the game can get through it and collect all three awards. With the control gate it is boring but without it's tough.

Also sick of the wood chopping. It's enough already. You shoot 4 shots of which none can be the same shot in order to start a mode. Then the mode starts and requires you to shoot lit shots (LIKE EVERY OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET). If you don't want to take 4 shots to start a mode then set it on easy.

Rant off....

It's a tough one. DO you prefer fan layouts or more original types of games. That is what will tell you what you will like better. People bitch about the flow on TF. I have no issues with flow. Balls come back just as fast on TF as they do on my ST and MET. I think they are both fun games but I think more people will like the play of TF over AV since AV is a different layout and with the shots being so tight it can frustrate you fast.

This thread was a "which is better" tread and since I own both I have every right to be here.

I'm just saying, it's getting so freaking old hearing that. It's not nearly as bad as the vocal's try to make it seem. I just feel it's time for those that like things to be just as vocal as those that want to bash things.

I did. But I actually asked the OP a question which will help answer his question better than having a thousand people say "this is great" of "this sucks" about either game? Games are a feel thing. I learned my lesson about letting a forum chose what I should buy next or what I would enjoy more. My direction was to make the OP think about what types of games he prefers by asking - "It's a tough one. Do you prefer fan layouts or more original types of games. That is what will tell you what you will like better. "

If you look at both games they are fairly on par with each other. Both have goods and bads. This choice comes down to theme and which type of layout you prefer.

Theme - personal choice.
Dots - I couldn't care less. I don't watch a DMD while playing. I think as a community we put to much focus in on DOTS.
Sounds - AV has better call-outs but I feel TF has better music and sound effects. This will relate to theme though. If you prefer AV's theme you will probably like AV's sounds better.
Game play - Both have fairly tight shots and people claim them both to be "clunky". Both have some flow but both have some stop and "clunk" features.
Rules - TF is better for the novice or lesser skilled player. AV is better for those that can obtain longer ball times and progress through the game. AV at first can get boring. Takes time to get through some of the entry things to get it really going. TF, you are off and running right off the start.
Ramps - Nothing better feeling than nailing the BW ramp, especially in sequence. Nothing more frustrating than hitting the BW ramp when needed and it rejecting. I love the fact that starscream can screw you over and divert the ball. Neither of the ramps on TF have a rewarding type of feel but the starscream feature is pretty cool. Ramps are also where a lot of the "clunk" and "cheap" comes from. I think the ramps are a good ideal. Never once heard of or seen one broken plus you have more art options with them. Standard ramps look cleaner and don't wobble with the ball in place but they have there disadvantages as well.

You are really looking at two very different type of games. In fact the only things these two pins really share is the hatred towards them on the forum.

That does happen. You can have a 10 min game outscore a 30 min game depending on how well you progressed through the game. The only lopsided part of AV I'm aware of is the bonus. I've had several games where my bonus will double my score due to the 25X. We're talking about 50+ million point bonus on 50-75 million point balls.

Funny story, I had a buddy over a couple months ago whom played my TFLE. He played for about 20 mins and put up 100 million points and didn't beat a single robot. The rest of us were laughing at the fact he hadn't beat a robot but were also very surprised to see his score get that high without beating one.

Beat away at the shield targets to try and bump your bonus multiplier up quicker. In order to do it via the in lanes it takes 6 shots for each multiplier (would take forever). The random award will throw out a +5 periodically. On a longer ball you'll generally naturally hit the shields so it's not a focus of the game I go for. Best way to score good on AV (IMHO) is to try and stack objectives with MB's. I try to never do Hulk or Loki until I qualify as many Avengers as possible. This helps to collect them faster too. Scoring seems to be slow until you get to the point of the VS mode battles.

Eskaybee would be the best to answer that question though as I recall him having some killer games on his AV. My high is 409 million but that was a fluke game where I almost beat it (a little longer than an hour game). Most my GOOD games are 150-200 million. A standard game for me is 50ish million.

Yup, and that is one of the reason's some dislike the game. If you don't know the strategy and are also shooting the shots necessary to progress through the game it will turn what felt like a rewarding ball into a disappointing ball. This is one of the reasons why I like the game so much. You can't just blow a score away like some other pins by just keeping a ball alive. This can be a good or bad thing based off the player.

Sorry OP if some of these back and forth conversations aren't inline with the thread. I think they are good discussions which could help you with your initial question.

*edit - adding another comment vs another post

While I agree that AV looks better this also gets a lot of dispute. Some absolutely hate the "Christmas tree" lighting of the LE o AV. Some like the red and purple theme of TF while others think it's to dark. With that said, I don't think either got decent artwork as both are a bit disappointing in that regard.

I'll be the buzz kill. Neither of these pins look like they will pull an IM or TRON LE money wise. Because of that I would say to just wait till you can put some quality time on both. If you find you like one then go for it. If not, you aren't out anything. I doubt holding off would cost you any $$$.

There are very few people that are in the middle on these two titles. They are more love hate types of pins. Either you love them or hate them.

Let me guess. You played them on route or at a show?

AV is ball hang up city behind the hulk if you don't set it up right. Get that switch in front of him sensitive and it's fairly uncommon after that. If you have a pro it's even less common. I guess Star Trek should be next to it in the hall of fame as I get easily 4-5 times more ball hang ups (lower pop bumper) in it than I do AV.

I also don't get the flow on TF. Shoot optimus and it comes right back to you via the inner loop. When he is up you bash him and it comes back immediately (no stop and go). Both ramps feed the balls back to me just as fast as my MET, ST and AC/DC do. They don't "look" as smooth but time wise, it's about the same. Only stopping is with megatron for ball locks and the all spark. I wouldn't even remotely consider it a stop and go type of pin. I'd like to hear more as I always hear this and I don't get it at all. I get just as much flow on this game as I do my other Sterns in my collection. The ball may not look as pretty going through the ramps but they return pretty quickly.

No, because it's a comment 99% of the people make that have only played it on route and via poorly set up machines.

I'll explain. If you play a crap game on route that is poorly set-up your feedback could be very different than playing the same game that is properly set up. With AV it makes a big difference on how it's set-up and that piece of information is extremely valuable in this debate.

I stand behind my comment, that if AV is a ball hang up hall of fame member than ST is right next to it. I get way more hang ups in that pin than I do AV. heck, I could probably name off half a dozen more games that have worse hang up issues than AV does as well. the only stuck ball location on AV is the hulk arms. That is EASILY rectifiable via setting the sensitivity on the switch in front of the HULK. To me, that argument is as bad as saying my car is a piece of junk because I have it tuned for a 2.76 pulley but I have a 3.2 pulley installed on it and it doesn't run right.

Step outside the box and quit trying to find ways to call me out and you'll understand I'm just trying to bring a difference in perspective to a debate that get's lopsided all the time. Feedback is relative and I have every right to debate it so deal with it.

I'll talk ya'lls word for it.

On the Black Willow ramp in the gap that the lifting hulk ramp creates. - never once had a ball stop on my BW ramp. I have a pro though. Never seen one stop there on the LE's I've played either though.

Top /Right hand corner from a very fast / clean Loki, Capt.America shot - Same with this. Never once had it stop there either. Only thought would be a low pitch game getting stuck at the control gate maybe. Never seen it so can't comment on that.

And the slots in the right ramp where the locks are... - Yup, this was a big issue until the update kit came out that came with a decal that covers those screw holes as well as an extra plastic to help with Hulk saucer bounce outs. had it happen a lot until that was installed. Since then, never once happened again.

Since we are talking about stuck pinballs. - I do get them stuck under my Iron Hide mini playfield from the auto launcher. Don't see it mentioned much so it may just be my machine.

'Well don't lump us Michigan guys in the 99%rs!" - Fair enough. I actually never noticed where he was at. I just looked in his collection and saw he doesn't own one now nor in his past thus my assumption. I know there are some on here that look to be a dick and cause drama. I'm not really one of those (at least I don't feel like I am). I'm kind of an up front and blunt person which makes my message get confused some though. Believe it or not I generally type a message 3-4 times before getting something to post as I'm trying to reword things that originally could come out sounding harsh.