Do we see a pattern here?
A few weeks ago: " The remake will never happen".
Last week: " It's all rumours".
Today: "It might still not happen".
Ship date: "It won't have the same quality as the original".
After delivery: "But it's still missing the Williams logo".

Why so much hate on the remake? I pre-ordered it because I always wanted one and this saves me at least $5-7K. IMO, if you're an original owner, your game is now worth anywhere between 7-11K. Right now, $7k. After the remake ships, if quality is not the same as original, originals will then jump to $9-11+K. It is a gamble all around for buyers of the remake (will they meet the delivery date, quality/playability of new build?) and original owners (will it be worth the $7K as of today, or will it climb higher?).

$7k for your restored MM? OP don't sell yours short just yet. If this guy can sell his unshopped MM for ~$8k in less than a day, right after the new MM remake no less, yours is worth way more than that.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nice-unshopped-medevial-madness-for-8800#post-1182280

If you *had* the cash, what was stopping you before from buying a real MM?

If you can buy a $15K+ motorcycle, what stopped you from buying a $15K pinball machine?

Either you are a cheapskate or never *had* the cash to begin with.

It's kind of like the new Camaro, many people just want a showroom new one, but there's a good group of people that want the original and those can sell for more than a new version.

I may prefer the original restored and mint but if they are not available and too expensive then maybe a new model will do for now.

It was 4500 Euros. lol

If anyone is going to sell, sell now. Once these new MM's hit, that's when the prices will bottom out. I guarantee you there are a ton of pinball folks out there that don't read pinball forums at all, and have no idea about the MM repros. You should be still able to get a decent price for an original MM at the moment - plus of course there is still a long wait until the repros actually start shipping. I would think that for me - if you wanted to sell an original MM - you're better off listing it immediately and seeing what happens after a few weeks. And try to target the masses, not pinball forums where everyone that wanted an MM has already ordered one.

This guy just posted today and wants $14K

orangecounty.craigslist.org link

The general consensus at my table at Expo tonight is that mine (all original, one owner HUO) was worth $14k+.

I've had a tentative offer at $10k, but made it clear I would not sell at that price.

I would maintain that restored games are closer to remakes than one that is all original. My view is :

Player grade original < PPS remake < high end restoration < HUO original < NIB

Why would anyone want to sell a high end restoration or better for the cost of either a standard or LE remake? Makes no sense.

I would take a high end restoration (Hep,JM, BK ect) over a HUO MM (JMHO)

Anybody who truly understands how economics work, know that the buyers of the knock-offs will want to make a profit one day when they sell their MMR.

That profit will be at least $1500 ~$2K which makes the MMRs now worth $9500 ~ $11K.

....and you're back to square one, with the originals still leading at their current $15K price.

This price cycle will continue to climb until demand stops or when PPS stop flooding the market.

In the end, there will be more collectors than players.

Just watch....

MM current price was a result of supply VS demand. Now with about 2,000 new maybe more, price is likely going
to drop well below the new releases. Why would you by the old , knowing due to age , cost for maintenance -replacement is guaranteed to greater . NIB appears to be 100% more attractive.

+1....what he said!

Which they weren't willing to spend. At least that's why I got in on the remake instead of ponying up the casheesh for a routed pos.

If a clean restored MM came up locally for eight grand now, I wouldn't buy it. Rather have newer tech and ALL new everything rather than someone else's resto attempt with all or any QC issues, and mix in of 1996 parts with restored pieces.

At least this way I get a warranty.

This is all unchartered waters until someone actually gets to play PP's NIB MMR, isn't it? So, yeah, I guess it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay.

A few years after the remakes come out, the used remakes will be worth less than a nice original. It's that way with pretty much any remake of anything collectible since the dawn of collecting.

I think it would be "funny" if real mm's started flooding the market before the remakes come out. They could adjust the market value below what pps is selling them for and alot of orders could get cancelled.

Whats your point? Why did I not give you my money? maybe I am cheapskate but I spent 15 on the bike and added another 10 in parts and custom work. So I do seem to spend it. Usually it goes to Stern.
But at 8k MM NIB is attractive as the other titles released will be.
What wont make sense is buying any old titles when there is even a chance that NIB will out.

Most pinheads say that 1/2 of the originally produced games have been lost/flooded/ChuckyCheesed over the years; so it is conceivable that if there are 2000 remaining MMs in the world - MMR could double the pool of available games!

How is that for a cool thought?

I've been wondering the same thing. Do you think it's possible they may end up selling way more? They could keep on producing this game as long as there is a demand.

Its a gamble , but I would say as long as the NIB MM's play like the originals then the originals are going to take a hard hit .

I know I would not touch a second hand MM for 7k when I can now own a NIB for 8K .

I would say its worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay. i personally think an authentic Williams game will always bring in fair value. Hobbiest/collectors will want originals with the Williams logo, Williams gutts/CPU board etc. What collectors want is only available in small numbers especially in the condition most are looking to purchase and own. Is it worth 5-7k more to own MM in it's original authentic state, to the collector...absolutely.

For those who own a HEP or Keller I'd say its still worth what you decided/decide to purchase it for. You can't take back the manual labor, pecision craftsmanship, patience and dedication that went into restoring an original c5 to a C10. It's a classic, and most certainly a trophy in ones collection representing a piece of pinball history.

I'm personally OK with hearing of the remake. Competition is healthy for the market and I wish the best for Rick and Planetary. My thoughts with only 1000LE's, they too will go from 7995 to 10-12k over time. It's a bad ass game and now more will see finally what all the hype on this title is all about. Fun times, lets enjoy being a part of all this pinball craziness.

"Which they weren't willing to spend". Uh...that's my point! So those people weren't in that market to begin with. So selling MMR for $8k didn't take 1000 people out of that market.

What's a nice MM worth?

mccain-in-depends-adult-diapers.jpg

I like this one.

Oops-I-Crapped-My-Pants_square.jpg

They sold 1300 in 6 hours - those went to people who:

1. Did not need their wife's permission
2. Were at the Expo, or just happened to be reading Pinside in the middle of the day.
3. Had cash and were ready to spend.

Now, it's not inconceivable that they will sell another 2000 to people that:

1. Need their wife's permission
2. Are not on Pinside every day
3. Need to sell other items or save up some funds.
4. Skeptics that need to see the remake in person.
5. Were at the Pinball Life party and missed the news.

Like I said earlier, Rick may easily double the available pool of MMs in the world, and that kicks ass!

need the wifes permission. HA! classic stuff. Makes me giggle every time.

4k euro max. i think 3k euro is a good price.

Many people that are new buyers won't admit it, but I would venture most, over 50% of these will end up hitting the for sale market within 1 year of getting it. Of the 4 people I know getting one, I can see all 4 doing it. 3 have sold one in the past as it wasn't their favorite game, and another thought it was a great deal and never had one on his want list.

So here is how I see it playing out:

1. Many of them have already owned and sold one in the past. So why not grab one, market has shown appreciation in this pin, sell and buy one of the many new pins coming out with a little extra in my pocket. They will dump them.

2. People that have bashed MM in the past are now owners. I guess buying one is going to make them a convert. They will dump

3. Flippers that flip all pins will buy multiples- gauge the market and sell when they can profit. Not if, but when, they will dump

The other 50%:

These are the people who really wanted a MM, they will keep the pin and be the new crop of forum defenders against the flippers who will proclaim, "I had the PPS MM and the game is over-hyped. I sold it within 2 months, as it did not do anything for me. I couldn't wait to dump it!!!!"

I was upset when I first heard about it because I own an original and thought it would plummet in value. I was even more upset when I heard people in "the know" were dumping their original MM's in the past few weeks. Pretty unethical stuff going on. It kind of ruined Expo for me in a little way even though I had no intention of selling my game. I've done my own version of a HEP restoration and found out I have one of the very rare blue playfields when I sent it out to be clear coated. It looks and plays like new so I'm probably going to be okay. Let's face it, no one has seen let alone played a reproduction. These guys still need to get final approval and the demand may have them crapping their pants wondering how they are going to deliver all these games right now. I saw the picture of the back box on Pinball News and that sure doesn't look like an original Williams game to me. Has that system been vetted? No offense but with this project, and I hope it goes well, you don't know what you don't know.

MM Backbox-311.jpg

Kind of hard to pull a man card about asking a wife permission to make a purchase when you should have yours pulled for "giggling".

Mancard rule number one: Men don't giggle, we chuckle or chort

And then we fart.

giggle or not. I still don't have to ask the wife anything when it comes to pinball. Price of giggling like an asian school girl....... $10 Dollaa....price of being able to drop $1000s on toys at any given time, fill the kitchen and dinning room with pins when out of space......without the wife saying a word....Priceless.

I see the exact same thing happening. People who have bashed MM in the past are now buying the remake. I also know of people who have owned the pin in the past, sold it, and are buying again.

Makes me chuckle or chort. But certainly not giggle.

Then go get that Gladiators. That one will leave you giggling.

Updated technology

is that really the entire board set for the MMR?

That is pretty damn cool.

What is the big draw to own a MMR if it's emulated, this is what the rumors have been ? Would be equiv. to owning a MAME or one of those Chinese multigame Jamma boards, how is that better and would it play 100% true to the original ?

Plus one big hybrid driver board underneath.

65.jpg

That seems like an awful idea! Why would anyone ever put an unprotected driver in the cab and hung from the pf.

Lots of dirt and lots of vibration is a bad thing in this case I would think???

Could be emulated. Could also be gate arrays. Was there no announcement around what the cpu board actually does?

The troll mechs seem to be going straight up through the middle of the board.

I can see it now, troll pops up....machine resets.

Many circuit boards are mounted to original MM playfield, they are fine with the vibration.

Service will be easier with the driver board right next to the components they are driving.

Glad they are thinking outside of the backbox.

Here is a question that got me wondering-

When has a copy/remake/redo of anything become more valuable than the original regardless of slight improvements?

The closest comparison I can think of that would be oranges to oranges is the BBB remake. Original is still worth more. In fact, in all collectible hobbies 99% of all originals sell better than copies/remakes/redos. Condition being paramount of course.

I am not talking about routed beaters with 50,000 plays, compared to a NIB MMR, but an average MM, 7 on a 10 scale, would still probably come in around 8k. Yes, that is a lower amount than a week ago, but the supply has increased so their would be a price adjustment in the original.

So to answer the original OP question, I would say a NICE MM is equal to what the reproduction is worth, around 8k. In 5-10 years if both machines are kept in a HUO environment, I would guess the original would be worth slightly more.

One thing worth noting when saying "original" is now the implication of being all original and unrestored. There are MM's out there right now which are'nt going to be much more original than the planetarys will be, with all new cabinets, playfields, decals, plastics, mechs, everything! Board sets and wiring harness may be all that are original. If planetary makes it right, it'll near the value of the heavily restored ones, but shouldn't ever quite reach an original, clean, unrestored MM.

That was a joke.

Rest assure, the end of eBay listings like this is pretty damn near...

image-526.jpg

I have one of those perfect original unrestored ones and am very happy with it. And we'll continue to be for a long time

Pretty much a no brainer there. And with the #'s being sold, the law of supply and demand will bring the market down much lower. Original HEP's and the like will still get a premium, but used originals and HUO MMR's will be $4-5k in a couple years. Non-remakeable pins like TAF will shoot up in their place.
At the end of the day, unless you are into pinball for investment, who cares. I just love to play them and am stoked that I may be able to get one someday now.

All I know is I played a beautiful fully working and awesome playing MM at the Explosion. That being said, It sure did not play like it was worth $7995.
I mean it was cool and all, Just not $7995 cool. More like $6000 cool, maybe $6500 cool

Having a pinball machine and a bus pass gets you on the bus.

Having a pinball machine that your buddies don't have and a bus pass still gets you on the bus.

All you guys that really think original MMs are magically worth less than 8k, please find me a SINGLE nice condition fully working MM right now for that price.

You may be able to find a routed beater that needs a new pf for around 8k, but not even close on a fully functional one. I have no dog in this race since I do not own a MM and have no desire to purchase a MMR, but it is sad how much some of you guys are trying to down play the market value of MMs.

There may be some sort of impact when (IF) MMRs really come to fruition in a reasonable quantity in the future but that reality is a long ways out.