I think most of the increased cost with the high-res lcd is programming the clips and effects for them. I don’t mind the 90s dmd’s.

I would give up the lockbar lcd touchscreen pinbar thing.

I bet the lcd screens aren't really costing much more than custom making dmd panels was. Maybe cheaper even...

I'd give up cabinet art?

I'd give up the backbox entirely too.

Expensive licenses.

Money?

With JJP pins I've found you don't have to give up anything. I know that sounds like a fanboy comment but in my opinion JJP is the only pinball company today that matches and exceeds Bally / Williams in terms of mechs. Combine that with the modern tech JJP uses and I don't have much interest buying older pins.

Considering the crazy prices of today's NIB pins there's no excuse, other then greed, for companies not to include multiple interactive mechs on a pin.

Licensed themes. Display / animations. Bluetooth / networking of machines (I think that's a thing now, I could be wrong).

Well said....

Except speed and fun factor at least for me. Not trying to argue just saying, I think JJP does make a beautiful machine with lots going on, the trouble is that hasn't translated into fun for many consumers which is the business of making pinball machines. Thats why they can't compete with Stern, yeah sometimes those Sterns seem empty and not worth the money but damn are they fun to shoot and they are smart with theme choice.

A whole lot of the cabinet could be redesigned if it's strictly for a home collector. As an example, losing the coin door could probably get me a set of drop targets instead of one wide touch target bar.

LCD screen animations is by far the biggest thing that could be cut back on.

Yet many consumers love JJP games and think they are fun and fast. I've noticed the people that hate on JJP games don't have have one and likely never will. Also, JJP doesn't need to rush out 4+ titles a year to compete with Stern. They are a competitor to Stern as customers have been giving them money for 7+ years now that otherwise would have gone to Stern. Stern has lost millions of dollars in game sales to JJP.

There's more to pinball then speed. Super high flow games from Stern have come at the sacrifice of interactive mechs and features. For $6k - $9k+ I need more then a couple ramps and orbits in a pin. Any game can be made super quick that way. For todays crazy NIB prices I want multiple interactive mechs, detailed 3D molds versus flat plastics, high quality animations, deep code with great mode choreography, etc. In my opinion only JJP is doing that.

Agree 100%

I don't why u keep going with that narrative, "Hate" JJP games? U know u are overly sensitive with this company. They have made what 5 games? isn't that a little low to suggest they "Never Will". U see what I'm saying here. Its great that u love all the mechs and feel ur getting ur moneys worth but that's not how the majority feels otherwise JJP would be a real contender.

When did JJP start selling $6k pins?

Referring to Stern at that range. Yes for $6k - $7k a Stern pro should come with more then a couple ramps and orbits.

What is this majority you speak of? The Stern fanboy narrative that JJP isn't a contender or a real pinball company because they don't sell as many games as Stern is beyond played out. JJP doesn't need to put out 4+ rushed pins a year with a minimal number of features to compete with Stern. That's not the company they are trying to be, that's not why JJP was created. Starting with Wonka JJP now has a model, their standard edition, to target operators while still having their high end game models that they are known for. The same could be said for Stern, they are not trying to be JJP and couldn't release 4+ games a year at that level. There's room for both companies.

This mindset that any company building high end products sucks and isn't a competitor is an odd one. I guess Rolex, and Ferrari should stop making products because they will never sell as many watches and cars as Timex and Ford. Those craft beer companies? They should just give up, they will never sell as many beers as Molson Coors.

I could do without the legs. I've got an excellent driveway and a cardboard sheet, it would be imamaculate

I would give up buying Stern games and buy from a company that already includes this --> JJP

Wow u really have gone off the deep end. I try to respect my elders and I'm not sure how old u are but I have to ask, R U ok? I mean that's disturbing. Ok u right. I'm a Stern fanboy and JJP is a "real" company, I always thought is was a fake company but u have clarified that and they are a contender and threat to Stern. Stern who rushes out good selling pins 3 or 4 times a year is I would think anyway very concerned about the new standard model and Wonka pin which is sweeping the nation right now. Its a good a thing that Stern does sell rushed apparently lack luster games cause they couldn't handle manufacturing JJP pins in that same efficient manor so thats good, as for that second paragraph I really think u might need an MRI or other test cause something's broken. My ridiculous answers show how ridiculous the questions are.

"The mindset that any company building high end products suck and isn't a competitor" where did u come up with that? Who said that? Get help sir.

People who don't like JJP's games don't own them? Gasp.

There's nothing about having a fast, flowy game that says it can't have features. JJP games just have weak flippers and most of their layouts aren't designed with speed/flow in mind

The Ford/Ferrari and Timex/Rolex arguement isn’t a pretty weak one, what’s the cost difference between those? 10-50xs difference.
Anyone buying a Stern premium most certainly can afford the small increase in price to a JJP.

100% on this. I don't need a licensed theme, just one that is not octoberfest or food truck

Give me a cool theme
Great Art / Video Assets
Fun Gameplay
Interesting Mechs

I'll lose both LCD and DMD. 16-digit doesn't cost much to animate for.

Unfortunately, if I were designing this game, I would probably spend so much on R&Ding the perfect modernized alphanumeric display that there would be nothing left for extra mechs.

Pinside.

I’d give up those super high quality playfields they’re using nowadays. Simply too much of the cost is going towards that sweet sweet playfield. Downgrade the playfield to the worst wood possible with no clear coat. Bring back the high quality mylar! Then the manufacturers will obviously have enough of a margin to put more expensive toys back on the game. Right? Right guys?!! kappa.....

First off I don't think every game needs more mechs, but licensed themes is probably options 1-3. I'd say cab art but I don't think that adds much.

I would give up size. If I could get a 3/4 scale pinball machine at full price but absolutely packed to the gills with multiple mechs... I'd be all over it. I want the moving ship with the articulated giant squid that throws balls at the ship while the talking pirate parrot on the playfield mocks your ancestery.

First is the LCD. The cost isnt in the hardware, its in the dev time for them. I mean they look awesome for spectators, but for the player, you never see half the crap because who is paying that much attention to the screen while playing? Im concentrating more on the ball then on what sweet animation is playing.

Someone else said coin doors. This seems like a no brainer. Why do all the machines have coin mechs still and not blockoff plates? Easy way to save some on the BOM. If you need them, sell them at a reasonable price separately.

Most of the other stuff doesn't really add that much cost per machine. I mean say art for the playfield/plastics/sides/etc. Maybe you pay a one time fee or royalties if its an outside designer, but overall thats peanuts.

The only other thing, ands its actually possibly the most expensive thing, is the license. Im totally OK with the what Ill call "Grade B" license. For example, Deadpool is based on teh comics, not the movie. GREAT move. Its doesn't get dated as easily and you dont need things like the actual actor who did the movie. People all say they would do without a licensed theme, yet when any are announced, people are all over bashing it as a dumb idea (look at the deeproot thread for a lot of examples). I never by a machine on license alone, but a lot of people do. Also, the average person who isnt a pinhead will walk up to a big license and play it on location just because its that license. Not really true for unlicensed games. How well has Houdini, Octoberfest or Dialed In sold? If they were big licensed themes, even if the game sucked, people would buy it for that connection alone. Its smart business. Me, I dont care about license. Ill play Fish Tales, Whirlwind, Whitewater, Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, etc all day long. You know why those are great games? They are fun.

Why is paying an artist to do detailed cab art a one time cost, but developing graphics for the LCD not?

Ever played Safe Cracker? Meh.

Pop bumpers don’t always need to be three. Stand targets are often not adding any excitement to a game.

Safecracker had full sized mechs and ball. I mean 3/4 sized mechs and 3/4 sized balls.

I would rather have a cool mech on the playfield than a shaker motor as long as the shaker can be added later.

Oh, in that case, keep dreaming.

I've bought a couple games with shakers, turned 'em off. Modern shakers don't even shake, they just rattle the fcuk out of everything and make a farty buzzing sound. However they coded Earthshaker to have a variable rumble was awesome.

I, for one, would play this.

Ha, reinventing every mech wont make them cheaper.

Powder coated cabinet parts; toppers; lighted speakers; coin door and coin mechs (why? It's in my house).

Scoops without subways seem like they would often cost more than they are worth.

Mini lcd screens on playfields are not usually as enjoyable as mechanical toys.

Can go either way

Reinventing the wheel. Adding new stuff to a pinball machine that makes a pinball machine not look like a pinball machine. I play pinball to 'escape' the world problems and to be briefly removed from today's technology (ie phone and internet). This is why I hated the idea of JJP Dialed-In. When I play pinball I don't want anything to do with a cell phone or touch screens. This is why I am not a fan of this new Deeprot Pinbar thing. Maybe I am just too old (over 50) and the younger pinball players want to be 'dialed-in' to touch screen technology when they play pinball? However, how many 20-somethings are actually buying new pinball machines today?

No, they don't want it either. Early 20-somethings raised on smartphones go to barcades to escape, do something physical. Grab a beer, grab a joystick, shove a pinball machine, hook up, whatever. Same as it ever was. iPhone killed Megatouch seemingly overnight. No more thrill in playing touchscreens at the bar when you interact with one all day.

Then why do pinball manufactures do it?

Deeproot's goal, I thought, was to make pinball machines easier to build and therefore lower the cost. Adding unnecessary touch screens, playfield glass hinge systems, new leg level things, speakers near the coin door and playfield lift systems add to the cost/assembly labor to produce a game.

Well are you asking aboot pinball manufactures or Deeproot?

For sure coin mechs - offer an upgrade kit for Ops that need/want it.
Side art (cabinet and head) - make it optional - a set of decals that can be purchased separately
Topper - optional
Shaker - optional

All of this (and more) could be check boxes at time of order. But this could introduce more complexity and forethought on the manufacturing side unless you leave it all for installation by the customer. I'd be okay with that. You could also use this as a revenue stream for the distros to install this stuff prior to shipment...

Add me to the camp that bought all of them NIB and have one left. Stern’s are 10x more fun.

Right. Deeproot has not manufactured anything yet so I'm sorry for calling them a pinball manufacture.

I would give up the popbumpers.
Then you will have extra space for better stuff. And it will save you 3 coils.

Totally agree, especially with the Hobbit. Every time I play it my ball times are way too long and I never have any fun playing it.