Interesting enough, my entire family did not like wizard of oz at expo, but now we own one and love it. I will use Ironman as another example, hated it on route, short game times were a rip off, at home it's a keeper. I have a buddy that operated and he said IM was one of his worst.

So I agree, some games are too hard for beginners. But most arcade go'ers want to have never played and start the game and have fun. Most non pin folks just try to keep the ball in play....having no idea there are rules.

Turning pinball into a redemption game? Time to bring this bastard back.
1991-williams-slugfest_1.jpg

I remember being under 10 in the local arcade back in the day. Went to this one all the time. They had around 3 pinball tables at all time. I think out of the 4 or 5 years we went there, I played a Demolition Man once. Pinball seemed like a "big kid" game at the time, especially considering how high off the ground they are. (I did see little step stools in later years)

Seriously, the only "pin" we ever put money in was Slugfest, and I think that was because you won baseball cards.

We realized later that someone had to physically put those cards in there, and that person would probably take all of the good cards for themselves.

That's a major problem I see. Most redemption games reward better play with more tickets. Pinball rewards better play with more playing time, whether as an extra ball or a replay. Maybe standardizing the time of each game, or at least narrowing the variance in such a way that a novice player will still feel as though they accomplished something. For instance, in a mode-based game, instead of having a small hard-to-hit scoop lit for one mode which needs to keep being relit with another shot, maybe it would be better to just have the modes run concurrently. (a la TAF's Tour the Mansion) Perhaps the game could give a speed bonus for finishing modes ahead of time or one for making the scoop. This way, all players can see most of the game in a minute or two. I'd hate to add more work for the programmers, but I really do think an "arcade mode" would help people novices enjoy the tables more. Like for Metallica, it could be:

Level One: Ride the Lightning (hit Sparky 5 times)
Level Two: Lady Justice (make 4 ramps/loops)
Level Three: Fuel (hit left targets 4 times)
Level Four: Grave Marker (complete inline drops and hit marker)
Level Five: Coffin (hit captive ball 5 times)

It's probably not the best order, but you get the idea. If they lose the ball, they lose a life. If they finish in less than 30-45 seconds, they get a bonus. If they finish all five, they get a frenzy multiball for 60 seconds.

Was this posted? From a recent AMA on reddit.

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Bottom line is profitability - especially earnings per square foot.

Pinball machines are a big investment and they take up a fair number of square feet. That's OK as long as they pull in a lot of coins, but most locations aren't seeing the coin drop.

Maintenance is an issue. Broken games don't earn money and too much labor spent on maintenance cuts into returns. Reading Eddie's log from Modern Pinball shows how much effort it takes to keep these games running and earning. As we've read from others, it seems unless the location operator is a pinhead, they eventually get sick of the maintenance costs and the "out of order" signs and replace the pin with something more reliable.

Then there is the issue where people have seen machines sitting there and no one one is playing them:
-We have novices who look at the modern games with deep rules sets, scratch their head, play it once, and too often it leaves them confused and frustrated. They aren't going to keep pumping in coins trying to learn it.
-Meanwhile too many of our own community won't play pinball on location because they can play in homes or they don't like location machines.

If there is to be a future for pinball, we should look at what those other games are doing to get put in there instead. At a minimum, they are more reliable and are more approachable for novice players. Maybe they also have features and themes that attract a wider audience.

But it would also help if we got out there and supported pinball on location. Guys - if we won't play them, why should anyone else?

Was at a D&B type place today in AZ and the pin section was getting a lot of traffic. They had about 16 machines and all were in order and working decent. Let one of the employees know that a rubber was busted on one of he machines and they had it fixed within 10min. Seemed like they had at least a couple competent guys there.
This spot had a ton of retro video games and tons of new ones like SW pod, giant electric connect 4, and tons of ticket games. They obviously see a good return on the pins or they wouldn't have so many, etc
Just sharing this experience because it worked and could certainly work at a D&B. You had to swipe your card to play the games too...

Dave and busters is a publicly traded company as of October 2014 that sold 94 million dollars in shares. Any company that has investors needs to be profitable and return the investment (IE increase in value). There's no way D&B is ever going to put pinballs in unless they know it can return investment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_%26_Buster%27s

Easy for me. I don't go to Dave and busters. I give my money to places that have pinball.

I ask again:

How many of you guys went to D&B to play Pinball regularly when they still had Pinball machines?

closest one to me was 40 miles away, maybe once every couple months at best. If the gameworks (30 miles away) had the newest sterns, I would probably stop in once a week. Unfortunately I'm not going to drop $2 for a 2 minute game of mustang that has an empty ticket dispenser, or $.75 for a non-working iron man or 24.

Very few of us.

Thus no more pinball machines at D&B.

and have johnny law come and shut you down! pinball is just coming back from old laws that banned it in some areas.

The game has a memory for the missing tickets, just tell an attendant and they will make it right.

If you win a TON of tickets, they bring you shrink wrapped bricks of them, rather than just a paper receipt - it looks good for you to carry them around.

Or give them away to sons of MILFs.

I use to go to the original D&B's location in Dallas and play pinball in the 90's. They had an awesome selection of new Bally/Williams games in great condition. For the time they were the best maintained games in the area, at least that I was aware of. I would walk in, start a four player game, and then order a beer when the server came by. Basically what I do now at my house, except for the server part. Once B/W stopped producing pins D&B's never bought any new Stern's and then started slowly getting rid of their existing games. I think they've been pin free in the DFW area about ten plus years now.

Something that I've heard before but no one has brought up here yet is that pinball usually doesn't earn as much per square foot as redemption or a new video game, which is the reason D&B's always gives for not buying them. But once you factor in residual value you end up better than a video game. Basically a five year old pin holds more of its original value than a five year old video game does. D&B was originally supposed to be an adult arcade. Kids were allowed until 9:00pm, but even before that they always had to be accompanied by adults. That's pretty much all gone out the window now. A few weeks ago when I was at our closest D&B's there were kids literally running around the entire time like it was a McDonalds play-land. The old D&B's would have pins even if they were just breaking even on them, because they knew it brought in adults who would then spend money on food and drink. Now they are basically a higher end Chuck E. Cheese.

Back in the 90's myself and a bunch of friends (both male and female) would go to D&B's several times a month and spend a bunch of money on food, DRINKS, and games. There was something for everyone and D&B's was constantly experimenting and trying out unique new things. Giant linked cockpits with PC's and 32" monitors, Galaxian theaters, shooting gallery with rifles. Now every game they have can be found at other large entertainment centers like Main Event. They hardly ever get new video games and when they do they buy the same games for every location. So even their own locations have the exact same games! Having pinball now would be unique, at least in DFW where we don't have many places that have any pins let alone ones that are well taken care of. I really miss the old Dave & Busters.

Well, some enterprising middle manager probably figured out that in the same amount of time it takes four twentysomethings to nurse two $12 D&B TNTeas apiece, they could have an entire birthday party of 15 kids each armed with $20 Power Cards which will be drained and refilled at least once. No contest. Singles like myself complain that there aren't many "adult spaces" left, but I can't help but think the reason is that kids are profitable. They spend a lot, quickly, and with little restraint. They aren't as good at the games as adults, inebriated or not, so the payouts aren't as high. It's the best of both worlds as far as D&B are concerned.

I remember the one in Houston used to have the Battletech pods, remember those?

Well but the profit comes from the alot of the Redemption games / ticket games. In FL Laws that where meant to target the sweepstakes parlors made Disney Parks removed redemption and claw machines. Also other places have / may have legal issues with them. Also a lot of the older ones have a lot more true skill then most of newer ones.

Now they should have coin pushers with real coin payout. I miss the old IGT Flip It game that was in Casinos. Some bars in WI and other places have more basic ones with real coin payout.

Non corporate adult places don't have the Redemption BS and they do good with Classic video games some of the new games and pinball.

Is that where they ended up? There was a podcast (gameroom junkies? broken token) talking to the guy that brought a couple to one of the comicons near atlanta. Those things barely fit through doors and have to be broken down a lot. I used to play those downtown chicago at north pier. What an amazing experience, from the enclosed game, to the atmosphere of the building (playing interviews of mech pilots), to getting statistics printouts of your battle.

That was in the late 90s, I don't think they are there anymore.

They used to have them at an old LAN center in Dallas before it closed, last time I saw them they were in the possession of some group that brings them to cons, they were at the Houston Arcade Expo a couple years ago.

So much talk about maintenance but even the occasional stuck ball could be huge issue.

At the Silverball in Asbury Park with, you know, 100s of pins, Whitewater served up 2 balls in the shooter lane, and the spring wasn't strong enough to get them up the ramp.

I asked the girl behind the counter for help. She knew nothing about them and I told her I could help, but she wasn't allowed to open up games.

Finally our solution was to physically tilt the machine up -- way up -- to allow both balls to be free.

Because, pinball.

LOL

I worked at an arcade and this is a standard professional technique. I'd be careful even mentioning such a ghastly offence on Pinside though

We had a public league a couple years back. The arcade had a hard time keeping up with maintenance. Because it was pinheads, nearly everyone in the league was twice as qualified to work on the machine as the employees. When the league managers offered to fix issues (for free) for our finals so that they played correctly, they denied them because management didn't want customers noodling around in their machines. needless to say, a couple months after the league was over, they sold all 18 pins because they weren't making enough money and had too much upkeep (even though 50 people coindropped $10 or more at least once a month, plus any days we came in to practice beforehand).

Definitely would have to be sensitive when speaking to a place about upkeep and such. Pinheads love to call out every single detail and while that is good to notify, I think a lot is in the delivery and when they see literally 100 regular casual players play and don't comment on anything and 1 pinhead with a list the size of Texas, it gets old and they just wanna get rid of them. That said, I personally welcome comments but Im a pinhead myself

and that same place had pinball in the 90's for some time.

Apparently the new Dave & Busters in Euless, a suburb of Dallas/Ft. Worth, opened with two pinball machines. It would probably be a good idea if we played them to show there is indeed a market for pins on location.

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Here is your chance guys, go pump tons of money in those and you *might* convince D&B.

I for one jump at the chance to show places that pinball location players are alive and well and kickin...ah shit Rolling Stones never mind I'M OUT

Being a store so close to D&B HQ, I'm sure it's a test market run of pinball being reintroduced into the D&B game floor. Make sure they get played a ton TX Pinsiders!

Many years ago (15+), the D&B's in Houston had one pinball machine. Theater of Magic. It was one game that usually was open. I played the hell out of it (made me fall in love with that game). It was the only pinball machine.

D&B is all about profit per square foot. Even if they had regulars propping pinball up, it could still not compete with other machines. Just too much overhead.

Plus, I dont think D&B is appealing to the crowd that supports pinball.

Looks like it's regulated to a niche audience (Pinball).... There is demand for these smaller operations. Pinballz and Joysticks are packed (Austin and Houston). Maybe the focus should be on growing/supporting these smaller boutique businesses?

If that's the case...Maybe they should have picked a better game.. Tron i get...but RollingStones? Argh...........

It depends how many tickets i get. I need them Chinese finger traps

You play that one after a couple drinks.

After 20 years of saving up tickets at D&B's I finally found something I could use...a cigar ashtray. The way they are focusing more on kids now I wonder how much longer you'll be able to find ashtrays, shot glasses, and pint glasses at their redemption centers?

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Pretty cool. Only cost you 5K.

Thanks for posting that. I looked but did not see it on the Pin Map, so I just listed it a little while ago after calling them to verify. I love to play location pinball, and do so a lot whenever I travel. So next time I make it to Dallas I will sure stop there. I always consult the Pin Map to figure out the places to play, and I love hunting down new places to add to the Pin Map. I've been a member here less than a year and already found 64 new locations to add in six different states; Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Texas, Arizona, and Nevada. (Actually, the only reason I do it is for the extra karma points.......oh wait.)

Three things:

1) I've never seen a video card reader like that at a D&B.
2) I wonder how much a game costs.
3) Does that have the Stern version of the redemption software?

If you buy a $10 card refill, you are paying roughly $1.61 a game at most D&Bs.

You can never know exactly, because they always post strange prices like "6.3 Chips per play"

Three more things:

1) I was just in the local D&Bs yesterday, and it'll be a minor miracle if VIDEOGAMES are still a part of D&B's business model over the next decade. More and more redemption games are going in, more and more video games are going out. And they've switched to ticketless, so finding a credit on, say, a Wheel of Fortune game isn't worth playing since you're just giving tickets to whoever swiped their card.

2) I did play a whole lot of pinball at D&Bs when they had it. However I'm sure my money isn't as highly valued as... *other* Pinsiders.

3) I actually saved up enough tickets over the course of the year to win an iPad. But the amount of money I put into it, I probably could have bought three iPads.

I honestly don't remember if they had any pinball machines last time I went to D&Bs.

Who cares? Who wants to play pinball so bad that they want to hang out at some crappy tacky chain bar at the mall?

All of the newer D&B's in Dallas /Ft.Worth use that same type of reader. All games on Wednesdays are half price. Plus if you register your power card you constantly get coupons in your email for $20 free on your card if you reload it with at least $20. So if you go on a Wednesday and use the credits you only paid half price for you end up playing all the games for 1/4 the normal cost.

That style cabinet had a ticket system that hung off the right side. So I don't think these spit tickets. I believe the newer cabinet has the ability to dispense tickets out the coin door. If it had a ticket mechanism that is.

that's because redemption makes more money. That and there's a new video game released what, once every 18 months? Some of those games are starting to look pretty dated.

and yet there are barcades without the redemption BS that seem to due good as well other local bars that have a few games with good ops running the games.

We just hired the Former VP of Games of Dave and Busters. I will have to ask him this question and see what he says.

JJ

Go visit the locations in seattle... and discover that the scene that is surging is about as far away from FEC as you can get.

we would in the 90s... but we would also go there for a good bar time. Now we do neither When it first opened in our area it was a novel idea, and the arcade was enjoyable. Non-gamers would do the golf simulator, linked nascar, etc.

Now the bowling/bar/gamecenter idea was a newer idea.. but I don't know of anyone who makes repeat visits to any of these novelty places except for company events or birthdays. They just aren't hitting the formula to get regulars.

Very well put, flynnibus.

If you're not an EXXXXTREME MMA BRO DUDER it doesn't really seem like D&B is interested in retaining your business, no matter how many $40-tokens-for-$20 coupons they dole out.

That doesn't seem true to me. We go as a family when we can, and we always have a great time. If you aren't using a coupon or special to get half priced games you are getting fleeced.

You can even pay for food with tickets now if you want.