Well, what should we expect from a company that eliminated service rails from the Pro models up until Maiden? I spent $70.00 to install them on my ST! And that requires drilling two holes through playfield which would not sit well with a lot of people. I don't see how you could get to the back end of playfield to do anything without them. Unless of course, you pull the playfield out! WTF? Sheer genius!

That "also-ra" is still around making pinball. Williams? Gobbled by Scientific Games in Nevada. Not a soul left in Chicago.

Just because Bally/Williams left for more profitable operations doesn't mean Stern has ever approached the level of their mechanical designs.

Left and got bought up. What a legacy. Tumbleweeds rolling at the old WMS building.

I'll take Stern's games any day over a 90's Williams game that looks like it's powered with a weak 9-volt battery.

LED lighting didn't exist then.

I wasn't the one comparing two different decades.

So yourself.

You're confusing mechanical design with lighting. That's your first mistake. Pinball is ABOUT mechanical design, and Stern is a pale imitation of Bally/Williams' mechanical design. The lack of subways are just one manifestation of that.

I'm not confusing anything. I'm stating a preference. You seem to worship Williams and think they could do no wrong.

And Data East had plenty of firsts in pinball design, which you're ignoring here.

LOL!

Hell, you see this lack of mechanical in the new JP2 pro. The original DE JP had a full animatronic T-rex that bends down and eats the ball! The pro doesn't even move it's jaw! Nodda! I don't expect it to have as much articulation as the Prem/LE version, but come on man! At least the jaw should move! But at least we got service rails! Oh the luxury!

That's not an argument.
The Pro is the Pro. And whilst it is the thing you find on location nowadays it can't be compared to a 90's Bally/ Williams Game.

JP2 Premium das a pretty good job mechanicallywise.
It has a signature toy and some little ones around it.

It's not worship, it's just stating facts. The fact is Stern's mechanical designs are nowhere close to Bally/Williams in ingenuity or complexity. A LOT of that is due to el-cheapo-deluxe cost-reduction constraints from above, but there's a good portion that's simple lack of imagination/complacency at Stern.

Well, you realize that most of Williams Pinball designers and coders work for or have worked for Stern? So essentially, Stern is Williams now.

And as for Data East/Sega being an "also-ran", he's a few of their innovations off the top of my head.

First Solid State Flipper (RoboCop)

First DMD (Checkpoint)

First select your own music (Checkpoint)

First Twin Ramps (TMNT)

First Subway shot (TMNT)

First pin to accept cash (Lethal Weapon)

First game with multi-axis levels (Lethal Weapon)

First to reward Death Save (Rocky + Bullwinkle)

First ever Super DMD (Maverick)

First pin to allow 6 players (Baywatch)

First pin with team mode (Batman Forever)

There are more I'm sure.

Look, I don't mind if you prefer Williams. You just don't have to shit all over Stern in the process. Some of us will defend them.

Why are you pulling Data East into this (I didn't do that)? To deflect from the fact that Stern's el-cheapo-deluxe cost reduction edict of "no subways" is bad for pinball?

Well, for starters, this comment you made earlier.

Their "el-cheapo" roots as an "also-ran" company would be the Data East/Sega era......you know.....when they actually competed against Bally/Williams.

So, essentially.....your own words.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

You're confused. Data East was basically Stern Electronics. SEGA absorbed that. Stern Pinball came from that.

If you read the post carefully and UNDERSTAND IT, I was comparing Stern Pinball (not stern electronics, or data east, or sega pinball) to Bally Williams DESIGNS (I explicitly said DESIGNS). I didn't make a contemporaneous comparison. Get it?

Point is, Stern Pinball is cheap. REALLY cheap. Like el-cheapo-deluxe cheap. This cheapness and rampant, relentless cost-cutting is widely known and accepted. This cheapness has held back their pinball designs because it includes the ban on subways. For example, Iron Maiden could have been a LOT better if Stern hadn't forced Elwin to cut the vari-target and subways from his Archer design. Fact.

Ya, I get your point, but it still doesn't seem right to me that the new JP pro doesn't at least have some movement to the T-Rex. It's not right!!!!! It feels like we're going backwards here! But there are so many other improvements to other aspects so...

Here's some facts for you:

Data East was not Stern Electronics. Stern Electronics was formerly a pinball company called Chicago Coin that went bankrupt, and Gary and his dad bought it up in the late 70's. Stern Electronics went out of business in the early 80's. Data East, a Japanese electronics company, created an American pinball division and hired Gary Stern to run it. That started up in 1986. Hence, this is why Stern celebrated their 30th anniversary in 2016.

And your post (that I quoted) was clearly talking about Stern's roots, not current Stern. Otherwise it wouldn't be "roots".

So, it's time to starting climbing out of that hole you've dug for yourself.

Fiction. You have been saying this for 2 years now. Stern didn't force me to do anything on Maiden. The vari-target was removed because the ball kept getting stuck. The subway was removed because there was no longer a vari-target dumping into it. There is no ban on subways. Not sure where you come up with your facts but as the designer I have the real facts.

Between your games and the fact that you are communicating with your fellow pinheads, you are easily one of the best designers out there. Maiden is the only game I play daily.

And JP will soon be the only game I play daily!

I know what you mean but when I bought my first NIB, I bought GB Pro "because ze toyz won't add hat much to the game". What I got was a still pretty game with a slimer on a fishing rod as the sole toy.

It's kinda the same here but JP Pro still has all the same shots and 3 flippers.
So, no, I wouldn't agree that we're moving backwards. We're improving... But just very slightly.

The LE models are definately going backwards in terms of added goodies tough, but it's not that you have to buy these...

Yea, If I were Stern, I would totally worry about what dr is doing, I mean they have been killing it lately! /sarcasm

This guy lol. Weren't you the one who bitches non-stop about Oktoberfest animations, without once mentioning game play?

IMO, nobody comes close to Stern. Stern is all about having fast flowing games. I'm personally happy that JP Pro doesn't have a moving T-Rex head. It slows the game down and creates problems. If you like all the gimmicks and toys, then go with JJP and spend the money. Additionally, if people keep complaining it'll eventually drive up the prices, by Stern trying to please everyone. Stern definitely had the chance to raise prices significantly with all the new companies coming out with their higher prices trying to fill the pins with bullshit that breaks down. Careful what you wish for.

Doesn't matter what you put in the machines, Stern consistently makes my favorite games.

Well, is that a fact? because...I remember playing this 35 years ago.
2019-08-16 19_13_40-The Six Million Dollar Man pinball backglass - Saferbrowser Image Search Results (resized).png

Lottsa facts going around!

image (resized).jpg

Well, in that post I said "off the top of my head". My "facts" post was about the history of Stern Electronics and Data East, and those are indeed facts.

In looking back at Stern's pamphlet for Baywatch, the wording meant it was the first 6 player game for the company, not in the history of Pinball.

So, my bad.

If I am paying for another wedding there had better be a new bride. Also FWIW I have been married 20 years and have no plans on spending money on a wedding.

Also since I am just now getting caught up in this thread, it has been a long week. I grew up in the late 80’s into the 90’s loved playing the Williams pins, but I would gladly take a new Stern premium over the routed to death A list Williams pins. I also really enjoyed playing the system 11’s but I would spend the extra 2k for a new Stern pro. Stern’s offer better lighting, better sound, new experience and technical support. That is why I can’t wait for Elvira!! It checks all of hose boxes for me.

sk8ball himself said the premium/LE plays faster on the Stern podcast...

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

You know who else isn’t a fan of subways at Stern? Lyman. He doesn’t like it when the player can’t track where the ball is. And you know, makes perfect sense to me.

There are other ways to do tricks with vanishing the ball. The Shadow’s sanctum lock. Metallica’s hammer lock.

Stern has long held onto the belief that location play matters and that pinball should be inviting to new players. Subways aren’t really to be honest. They’re a pita for ops too.

I won’t make up facts about what Stern allows. But I don’t believe every decision they make is because they’re cheap. That sounds like emotional cheap shot territory to me. And why people pull “facts” out of their asses.

I find that sewers add a sense of wonderment for new players. When newbs come to my tournaments, they are amazed by the sewer magic of STTNG, even if the game kicks their ass. They also have little trouble learning sewer shots like the piano on tz and the chair on TAF. Disappearing balls via sewers is just plain cool and fun.

Good news to hear there is no ban. Keith, what are the chances of your next machine being an unlicensed theme called Sewer Madness?

Here's the good stuff.

Get dunked @vireland. Show some self-respect and eject yourself from the thread now please. Full rekt status confirmed.

But luckily for Stern you aren't.

You usually try to avoid to do something that is directly compareable.

There's no benefit in this.

Even better fact.

Definitely no shortage of “Ass Facts” around here.

Do any of you think Stern will run a few more Ghostbusters and GOT’s after the code updates?

You are right, DP better change plans.

What plans?

To not develop Alice in Wonderland because someone on pinside said it's a good idea for Stern to make it?
So because of that now it's a fact that Stern will do it?

You should do a podcast. You definately get to win the TWIPYs!

DS Nadine said Stern is definitely making an Alice in Wonderland pin. Tell everyone

You are the one who suggested Stern not to develop AIW, as DR is developing it supposedly. I merely turned it around by suggesting DR should change any plans.

I know.

And it makes no sense at all in chronological cause effect.

I thought Elvira 3 was next??

Vaults "don't count".

Maybe if DR and Stern were on the same level. DR is vaporware, Stern could announce AIW tomorrow and would sell a shit ton without a worry in the world what DR might do 3 years from now. Anyways

Mad Max!!