I could say the same thing and we still average out. There are a lot of people who would buy if they could get a LE for 8K.
If you read what i'm saying is, it's faster and cheaper to produce a single line without options, if that is true, then the full machine could be cheaper to produce.

The complexity of the options and making them different makes ALL of the machines more expensive. Can you agree with that, or does it make them cheaper?

Just the design process is more difficult, then you have the different wire harnesses, code, graphics, etc. You get the point. It's expensive to make all of these options different.

The Pro offers a good budget option… or at least it use too. I see your train of thought though because Premium is usually the way to go. The LE and packages like it create so much hype and fomo on their own I feel like we ride their waves sometimes instead of the “new game” itself.

Just a wild guess but I’ll wager that at least one staff member at Stern has consider dropping to one model only and you’re completely wrong.

6000 units each way and the cost of the LE has dropped 1K and the gross profit is the exact same.

Now you will say, well the LE cost "MORE" to make so less profit for them, it's only slightly more, but you are not factoring in the huge savings of being able to produce just one variation from the start, the QTY savings in ordering from sub contractors, the line efficiency, the distribution efficiency, the savings from pre production.

How many people pass because the PRO is whack and they cant find a LE, on and on. How many people play the pro in a bar and aren't impressed and don't even know the LE model exists?

In my model the LE is now only 1K away from the PRO, you could say less people can afford because no PRO, I would say more people can afford the LE.

example 1 (resized).JPG

To be fair, the le does cost more to make. Mirrored backglass, shaker, art blades, better ( supposedly) speakers, a few more playfield objects, powdercoat, side armor, invisiglass and on last 2 games, foil cabinet art.

Coming from a software development perspective (particularly UX design), I agree. Stern should can the Pro and design the best ONE GAME they can. Keep the LE the same game with bling like they have been doing. That strategy really should lower the price some, if they were ethical. Maybe meet in the middle between Pro and Premium prices of today. As a designer, there's nothing I hate more than making something I'm happy with, and then needing to figure out how to make it worse. I mean, Stern designers do a great job making Pros good, but it's a waste of resources. They could be well on their way designing the next thing if they only had to worry about 1 game.

Yeah jjp did it with ts. One model. Issue is arcades that can’t afford the prem or don’t want mechs.

Gary's investors are making a lot of money. A LOT.

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I would say closer to 4k. Kaneda had Nick parks on in 2019? and let it slip a pro costs 3000 to make back then. If they can still profit on the home pin at a msrp of 4599 there is a lot of profit baked into the pro.

Really awful take here. As someone who spends many thousands of dollars to bring pinball to people who otherwise can’t afford to own I’m actually pretty offended. Pinball would not be thriving as well as it without the resurgence of location pinball and the operators who grind it out for the pure love of it. The major reason operators get the pros are that they come off the line first and we are the first to get them AND the lack of unique mechs tends to keep games running well longer with minimal maintenance. Do I buy premiums for home? Yeah. Are home buyers important too? Yeah. It’s all important for the pinball ecosystem. Stern knows this and that is one of the reasons they are so successful.

It was meant to be brash, but it is too much. I’m not really interested in creating more pinball deserts. I know my area would be fine… so that’s really where that train of thought came from.

Well I’m offended that you’re offended.

Joking aside, good point on pros being easier to maintain due to fewer mechs (usually) for operators

Valid point, but you're still going to buy machines regardless of one Mech and if you own an arcade you should be able to maintain a Mech along with all of the other things to maintain, I don't see it as a deal breaker, and just think how much extra coin you will get with play on the better machines.

"The major reason operators get the pros are that they come off the line first and we are the first to get them"
Again, why is this a better business model? The lesser machines are sold first so we buy them, SMH.

Best reply sir, stripped machines ending up in arcades as the prime example of this game.

Seriously, Stern should have this warning flash on the PRO models for arcades:
"Player beware: This game is a stripped down, less fun version because the arcade cannot maintain the Premium version we designed, there's actually a lot better version we make but you will have to look on the Pinside map to locate someones home and then befriend them to try it"

Pro’s are great on location. Less shit to break, better roe. Most cases I’d go pro over prem. Not much difference in the cash box.

You’re just basing all of this off of personal preference, you prefer premiums so you want to try and make them cheaper. There really are people who prefer to buy pros and they’re not all operators. More mechs don’t necessarily mean a better game. I have a mix of pros and premiums, JP I have a prem and guess what, I turn the trex off. TMNT I have a pro, I wouldn’t have bought it if it was premium only.

You assume everyone who buys a pro would buy a prem if they were a bit cheaper and that’s not the case. Firstly they may not see value in the machine at a higher cost than a pro and secondly they may have a limited amount of money they can or want to spend on machines, that may mean instead of buying 6 pros they buy 5 premiums.

I actually like not having mechs to tweak on my pros and many of them have the basic same gameplay as the premiums. The novelty of the toys wears off for a lot of people who play everyday.

I pretty sure Stern know what they are doing with the 3 models, if there comes a time they believe 1 model, whichever one that may be, will be more profitable and still keep operators buying as that’s how a lot of people get into pinball, I’m sure they will adjust.

For their own longevity Stern need to introduce pinball to new people all the time. Location games are great for that and there will be less of them if premiums are the only models. Also a lower cost of entry into owning your first machine is important, along with something less intimidating to maintain. (Somehow you find the funds for more once you’re hooked but it’s harder to justify on your first game)

If there’s any adjustment in the 3 model system I actually see it being making the cost between a pro and premium greater.

Yes, you are the exception to the rule but I don't know if a game is 7K vs 8K will make a ton of difference for any buyer. Truth is, if you have 7k to spend on a toy, then another 1k is no major hurdle. Yes there is always a group of people that go for the lowest price of everything but that don't mean they are ruled out as buyers at a fraction more, it just means they go cheap and don't care about frills.

From what I have seen in these forums, the MAJORITY wants LE, i'm simply saying I think the LE COULD be produced cheaper and more efficiently if not for the lower model.

I remember back in the day T2 sold like 18k units, had Mech and one model. Addams family 20K units. Imagine owning a T2 without the cannon and gun handle!

But hey, maybe i'm wrong, maybe the complexity of all of the changes in parts and assembly makes it cheaper for everyone involved. I'm sure Stern knows or maybe it's like how Blackberry knew the keyboard was the best way to go, who knows.

Maybe I am the except to the rule for home buyers I’m not sure. I just think about some premium models that I wouldn’t buy if they were the only option and I think others feel the same. Imagine only having prem GotG with no pro option, I don’t think it would have sold anywhere near as well but I could be wrong.

I think the other thing to consider is that operators choosing pros aren’t necessarily arcade owners. Sure if you own an arcade with a bunch of machines at one site, fixing and tweaking mechs isn’t a big deal but if you’re an operator with 100 machines over 40 locations or something, you don’t want to travel 100+ miles every time a mech breaks. These are the locations that draw in new people, the people who would never consider visiting an arcade etc.

How about an arcade mode then, put it into arcade mode and the Mech is bypassed. Might be better then under building 50% of the games for all of history.
I guess i'm thinking long term, think about Timmy, 100 years from now who is restoring his game trying to figure out how to convert it to LE then realizing it's not possible.

I love the Pro model option. Cheapest option and less/no mechs to break? Winning.

Haha, you probably prefer crank roll up car windows too and no A/C. Less to break.

Have you ever had an electric window break on you? Or freeze on you in the winter? It sucks when trying to go to McDonald's and get a coffee and you gotta open your door like a bum.

Stop with the fake business modeling. Pinball machines, like ferraris, alfa romeos, and rolex watches are a "giffen" good. I understand that demand siders dont like that perspective but in the us we are always a supply side economy. If you dont like that move to the eu and pay 25% vat.

To me it is not about the price difference. I am just concerned how it plays. Is the LE always the best-absolutely not. I really do not care for mini novelty upper and lower playfields,etc. on most LE's that to me-can ruin a well flowing game. As soon as I saw the Jetpack on a stick for 007 I got a feeling that the mech would slow the game down and not be enjoyable to me. Am I going to jump in on an 'LE' because it is the best-no. I will wait and check out the Pro. I feel if more pinsiders keep an open mind-it may change these misconceptions of LE being the best-sometimes less is more.

Fake business modeling???

The basis of the argument is that making 1 model is cheaper than making 3 different ones. And the statement Tyler_Durden is making is absolutely correct if all resources focus all efforts on one outcome. From a manufacturing standpoint, the resources for creating 1 SKU will always be cheaper than creating 3.

Cheaper, yes but cheaper doesn't always mean more profitable. I think we just have to accept Stern has done the numbers and considered everything and this is what makes them the most profit for now, that may change in the future of course.

I have machines on locations with unique mechs and I am under the hood on those more often than the others. It’s part of the job. Now, if every single game I had was like this then the time spent maintaining would negate any profit. If techs make $80 hr I’d blow my profit margin in a few hours a week. I appreciate game like STH, TMNT and GZ pro which print money and never break. They allow me to spend the time keeping other more intricate games running.

What if you could disable the feature you choose as you choose. I have games from the 90s I can turn settings off on. Your argument is based solely on your profit margins and that a mech is going to break every day. I don't think that's fair.

It's more of a what if argument. Well what if the mechs are fail safe and don't break?

100% fake modeling. If pinball machines were fords who would want any of them. People buy them for exclusivity. If I could buy a pinball at walmart, I wouldnt collect.

Also, the premium and le upgrades are where they make their money.

it all comes down to marginal costs. prove me wrong.

Thank you Lounge for making some sense! I'm just trying a have little pinball business discussion.

Everyone is bringing their own personal preference and what if's into it. I have no skin in the game, but from a manufacturing standpoint I know pinball is difficult and making 3 options for the same game is far more difficult especially with the lower numbers they do. The pricing structures seem to be a "what can we get for this" vs a fixed profit margin, so I ask why. Obviously Stern thinks it's best for their profit, why else would they make it so much more complex on themselves.

Obviously arcades and alike buy the cheapest game and don't care about the user experience.

Obviously "most" home games are LE if giving the option and if price is close.

Obviously making 3 versions adds to the overall unit cost for ALL games vs producing one version.

The question is, do they sell more lower costs units or make more profit on some machines to offset this waste in manufacturing. I doubt they really know at this point because you would have to do an A-B run but then the theme would have to be the same, demand and so on and it's just not possible to do an equal comparison this way.

You re not understanding marginal costs.

These modern pinballs covered head to toe in stick on dot matrix vinyl decals arn't exactly collector quality. Give me screen printing and catalyzed clear coats and then we can talk collector quality.

In other words, they are fords dude

Is a mclaren built better than a honda?

Research giffen goods and marginal costs and get back to me.

Ill say it in your language. Mclarens are built like shit but are cool af and expensive. People buy them for that reason. same idea with pinball.

I speak millennial too bro. Im just educated.

If you believe this is true then you are agreeing with me that maybe the best route is to not offer the pro model and to streamline production.

I mean why not just sell LEs if that is where the profit is, as you say.

Okay, but I don't see how this relates to anything.
What doe's this have to do with producing one model vs three?

#gaslighting

I would argue that on paper, yes, Stern would make more money on a single pin model, at least in the short run.

HOWEVER, in the long run this would really screw them. I don't know about you, but I got into pinball after not playing since I was a kid after I found some pinball machines on location. Even if they make a little less money on them it is CRITICAL that Stern gets their pins out to locations for people to discover and enjoy. Every Pin on location is essentially a "Showroom model" that lets people take a test drive before they go out and buy it. I don't know of any New pinheads that discovered pinball in a friends basement. It is all off of location play. There is a reason Stern ships the first of any new pin out to locaitons before even filling LE orders. People want to play it. Up until the recent pinball market squeeze caused by COVID, it was pretty much standard that LEs didn't sell out at launch, and many people would wait to play a game on location before ordering it. There are still many pinheads that think buying blind is nuts. If I had any other option, I would.

Also... is the plan really to open up LE order BEFORE (or at the exact same time) they show a reveal video?

https://traffic.libsyn.com/poormanspinballpodcast/EP_126.mp3?_ga=2.221166360.1490378194.1663764937-732653579.1661986303

I just discussed on our podcast that I think Stern should go to single game plus LE bling model and maybe pros are soon going to be too expensive for what they are.

Take a listen and send me the hate mail pro lovers LOL

Wait until Tyler learns about Stern's home model of games taking up space on the factory line when they could be pumping out more premiums

Also I would say most of the time, pros tend to play better than premiums. There are a couple exceptions and some "meh it's not that different and just personal preference," but generally speaking I rarely think the premium is OMG.

Of course part of that is they design the game around a pro, and then add a few extras to make it a premium. So a lot of premium upgrades aren't heavily utilized, often mostly cosmetic, or rarely add a substantial difference to the core gameplay and ruleset. (and then if they do, it's a subjective question of if any of it is good)

That's what I'm saying, if every model "on location" is a stripped down version, is that a preferable unit to get people to want to buy a better one, which mind you, they don't even know exists?

I mean what other business put's stripped down models at dealers in hopes to get orders. That makes no sense. You would want the opposite, the best model at the dealer and then sell them a cheaper more profitable unit or more expensive unit.

Counterpoint: put the most reliable game in front of people who are already going to be intimidated about what to do when something breaks. Let the distributor upsell them when they're actually in a show room