Quoted from shaub:Don't you want to be a pinball sherpa?
How does a sherpa compare to a guru and/or a wizard?
Quoted from shaub:Don't you want to be a pinball sherpa?
How does a sherpa compare to a guru and/or a wizard?
Quoted from mpdpvdpin:DP is perfect for newbies. The battles are just a series of lit shots then flashing scoop to finish, it’s as simple as shooting what is lit, How is that unclear?
I recall a pinsider, perhaps in this very topic, complain about the final shot not being clear enough. When you’ve got a Pinsider saying it, all hope is lost for Joe Both-Flippers.
Quoted from PinMonk:, better flipper heat management
Well, I was with you until here. I just bought your Tibetan Breeze fans because the coils on my STH overheat more than they did on LOTR. I don’t think anything has changed. I think the extra cost for dual-wound coils makes them a non-starter, sadly.
Quoted from swampfire:Well, I was with you until here. I just bought your Tibetan Breeze fans because the coils on my STH overheat more than they did on LOTR. I don’t think anything has changed. I think the extra cost for dual-wound coils makes them a non-starter, sadly.
Stranger Things is an outlier for Spike pins. It runs the hottest coils of all the Spike ones, by far. Overall Spike's coil management is a marked improvement from SAM and Whitestar. Their hold temperature management, especially, is amazing.
I haven't temp-tested a vintage LotR yet, but I would not be surprised to see temps well over 200F given the amount of fade they experience. A Spike LotR will have significantly better coil performance overall. Will it still need fans? Maybe, but that's what coils DO - they heat up. Managing the heat progression to moderate it is all you can do as a pinball programmer. You can't stop it, because physics.
Hmmm Not all pinsiders are brainiacs though, evidence found on nearly every page of every thread.
Quoted from BasementFacts:I recall a pinsider, perhaps in this very topic, complain about the final shot not being clear enough. When you’ve got a Pinsider saying it, all hope is lost for Joe Both-Flippers.
Quoted from swampfire:I think the extra cost for dual-wound coils makes them a non-starter, sadly.
so, is spooky going to stay the course and starting next month begin to produce another 1000 machines with knockdown/flutter flippers ? or will they return to using dual wound coils and pass the increased cost on to the customer ? perhaps the switch from multimorphic to ben hecks board will make things more better.
Quoted from Indusguys:I can’t believe Stern would do Rush before Queen or Black sabbath.
Queen is already being developed by the Pinball brothers. I would agree that Queen is a bigger band than Rush and hits the sweet spot for pinball. Can't agree on Black Sabbath.
Rush has a more diverse fan base (generationally speaking) than BS and is tailor made for pinball from a theme standpoint. Led Zeppelin is a huge band but I don't think it translated to pinball very well. Rush, on the other hand, has a host of sci-fi, fantasy themes and concept albums such as 2112.
Quoted from greenhornet:so, is spooky going to stay the course and starting next month begin to produce another 1000 machines with knockdown/flutter flippers ? or will they return to using dual wound coils and pass the increased cost on to the customer ?
I would think that the one place you don't want to do cost-cutting is on the flippers. If the flippers are no good, what's the point in having the rest of the machine?
RUSH is corny.
Quoted from konjurer:Queen is already being developed by the Pinball brothers. I would agree that Queen is a bigger band than Rush and hits the sweet spot for pinball. Can't agree on Black Sabbath.
Rush has a more diverse fan base (generationally speaking) than BS and is tailor made for pinball from a theme standpoint. Led Zeppelin is a huge band but I don't think it translated to pinball very well. Rush, on the other hand, has a host of sci-fi, fantasy themes and concept albums such as 2112.
Quoted from mbeardsley:I would think that the one place you don't want to do cost-cutting is on the flippers. If the flippers are no good, what's the point in having the rest of the machine?
With Spike, Stern has shown that you can do single-wound very effectively, but you MUST manage them well to get good performance (which is down to code/technology base). Spooky isn't there yet, and I think they have more time than is available before the next game to get it right. So falling back to dual wound that they've proven they can do (ACNC, etc.) for the next pin seems like a safer, more customer-friendly option while they work on their code and performance base for single wound flipper coils to at least get them in the neighborhood of Stern's performance.
Quoted from PinMonk:neighborhood of Stern's performance.
without prejudice.... find stern flippers to be clunky and have bad coil stops! so hope there is a better alternative!
Quoted from PinMonk:With Spike, Stern has shown that you can do single-wound very effectively, but you MUST manage them well to get good performance (which is down to code/technology base). Spooky isn't there yet, and I think they have more time than is available before the next game to get it right. So falling back to dual wound that they've proven they can do (ACNC, etc.) for the next pin seems like a safer, more customer-friendly option while they work on their code and performance base for single wound flipper coils to at least get them in the neighborhood of Stern's performance.
The price of a Stern flipper coil and a Williams flipper coil is essentially the same. So what is the benefit to Stern of using the "poorer" design, even if they can (mostly) overcome the problem in software? Is the problem that the Williams design is patented, and therefore needs to be licensed?
Quoted from mbeardsley:How does a sherpa compare to a guru and/or a wizard?
I'm glad you asked, really a sherpa is only 1 part of becoming truly enlightened in the ways of the silverball. A guru tends to educate in the spiritual ways of pinball, a wizard teaches you the sorcery of ball control, nudging and shot accuracy, and the sherpa focuses on all things rules based.
Together all 3 are required for a pinball student to become a Silverball Master! There is no other way.
Quoted from mbeardsley:In my experience, Noobies spend their time hitting both flippers together as fast as they can.
Wait . . . you mean I've been doing it wrong all this time?
Speaking of coils heating up, Led Zeppelin you can backhand that right ramp shot on a fresh start up, but go a few multiballs deep into the gameplay and that shot is no longer,
It even becomes much more difficult to do with the left flipper, they get tired, and you start to rely on the roll in from the inlane to give it the momentum it needs.
It’s my only real knock on the the game though (I have a pro)
Quoted from mbeardsley:The price of a Stern flipper coil and a Williams flipper coil is essentially the same. So what is the benefit to Stern of using the "poorer" design, even if they can (mostly) overcome the problem in software? Is the problem that the Williams design is patented, and therefore needs to be licensed?
Retail, yes. OEM, no way. The prices are not the same at the factory level.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:Speaking of coils heating up, Led Zeppelin you can backhand that right ramp shot on a fresh start up, but go a few multiballs deep into the gameplay and that shot is no longer,
It even becomes much more difficult to do with the left flipper, they get tired, and you start to rely on the roll in from the inlane to give it the momentum it needs.
It’s my only real knock on the the game though (I have a pro)
Coil fade over time isn't a HUGE problem on LZ (see temp chart below), but it's DEFINITELY noticeable in subtle ways later in a session, especially on the backhand you're talking about. Like all the other instances of Stern fade (many much more severe than LZ), the Tibetan Breeze kit takes care of the issue completely.
Coil Testing Chart-2020-03_sml.jpgQuoted from PinMonk:Retail, yes. OEM, no way. The prices are not the same at the factory level.
But I am sure at quantity, the price difference is negligible. Even if they cost double (which I am sure they don't), we're talking about less than $10 per machine. Seems like there are much better places to skimp on than something as critical as the flippers.
But then again, they skimped on the coil stops too, so I guess we know where their mindset is.
Quoted from PinMonk:Coil fade over time isn't a HUGE problem on LZ (see temp chart below), but it's DEFINITELY noticeable in subtle ways later in a session, especially on the backhand you're talking about. Like all the other instances of Stern fade (many much more severe than LZ), the Tibetan Breeze kit takes care of the issue completely.[quoted image]
So Stern expects people to install a $120 cooling kit to make up for the $5 they saved on flipper coils? Seems like a bad plan to me.
Quoted from mbeardsley:But I am sure at quantity, the price difference is negligible. Even if they cost double (which I am sure they don't), we're talking about less than $10 per machine. Seems like there are much better places to skimp on than something as critical as the flippers.
But then again, they skimped on the coil stops too, so I guess we know where their mindset is.
Nope. Coil windings are made of metal. Metal is not cheap these days. The OEM level price savings for volume purchases will parallel and never come close enough to call "negligible." You're increasing the metal content by almost 20% in a dual wound 11629 Williams compared to something like a single wound 5030 Stern. That 20% more metal bridge will keep the price difference about the same even with an economy of scale.
Quoted from mbeardsley:So Stern expects people to install a $120 cooling kit to make up for the $5 they saved on flipper coils? Seems like a bad plan to me.
No. You have to realize that MOST PEOPLE don't play long enough sessions to have issue with fade. Or if they do, they don't care, or don't perceive it as a problem worth worrying about. That's is the calculation Stern (correctly) has made, while continuing to work on heat management from Whitestar to SAM to Spike. On the few Stern/Spooky/JJP pins with really severe fade that comes on in less than 30 minutes, a lot of casual players just don't care enough to worry about it.
And, for the record, flipper fade in longer sessions is a problem for ALL pinball manufacturers to manage, not just Stern. Because physics. None can eliminate it without external forces like cooling, but it can be made better (i.e. take longer to happen, etc) through software and design tricks that reduce the number of flips per minute or length of trap up opportunities.
All of that said, should JJP and Stern include flipper coil cooling on their topline CE/LE pins? Wouldn't be a bad idea to pamper their best customers with a performance boost and bragging rights. Lord knows the CE/LEs cost plenty. Will they? Um, no.
Quoted from PinMonk:Like all the other instances of Stern fade (many much more severe than LZ), the Tibetan Breeze kit takes care of the issue completely.
Oh, how convenient! The product you designed to fix the issue, helps to fix the issue! Seems pretty suspect to me!
Haha just joking, in fact, I just put a set in my AIQ last weekend and they should be mandatory for TMNT.
Quoted from shaub:Oh, how convenient! The product you designed to fix the issue, helps to fix the issue! Seems pretty suspect to me!
Haha just joking, in fact, I just put a set in my AIQ last weekend and they should be mandatory for TMNT.
Ahh, I did not realize that he makes the cooling kit...that explains a lot.
By the way, if Williams coils are so much more expensive to make than Stern coils, then why does Pinball Life sell them for less than they do Stern coils?
Maybe they just hate Stern and are willing to take a loss on the Williams coils...but want to screw over the Stern owners.
Quoted from shaub:Oh, how convenient! The product you designed to fix the issue, helps to fix the issue! Seems pretty suspect to me!
Haha just joking, in fact, I just put a set in my AIQ last weekend and they should be mandatory for TMNT.
Believe me, this coil heat/fade rabbit hole I fell into was not planned or even expected. I had the same issues as everyone else with LotR back in the day, but it never dawned on me to check coil temps in real time until 20 years later when Stranger Things was having such severe fade issues that made backhanding the left ramp, and in later cases even MAKING the left ramp with the right flipper. Once I started testing, I expanded to lots of machines and enlisted help from others and the results kept surprising me. I keep saying it, but Stern's Spike system coil hold being able to manage temps so the coil really doesn't heat up much at all while trapping up is the biggest surprise. The good thing about unexpected detours is they often produce useful outcomes (unlike, say, a Youtube rabbit hole). It's all ended up with a ready-made product that solves fade available for people who want it. Win-win.
And thanks for your support.
Quoted from mbeardsley:But I am sure at quantity, the price difference is negligible. Even if they cost double (which I am sure they don't), we're talking about less than $10 per machine. Seems like there are much better places to skimp on than something as critical as the flippers.
But then again, they skimped on the coil stops too, so I guess we know where their mindset is.
Price delta per coil x number of flippers
Unless you go old school analog EOS, you also increase the circuits to drive the flippers
$10 is not immaterial in a BOM...
Quoted from mbeardsley:Ahh, I did not realize that he makes the cooling kit...that explains a lot.
By the way, if Williams coils are so much more expensive to make than Stern coils, then why does Pinball Life sell them for less than they do Stern coils?
Pinball life has gotten into the parts manufacturing business. It's possible he has different suppliers or economies of scale on different coil types. And don't forget retail price isn't always set by cost, but rather what they can charge
Quoted from mbeardsley:Ahh, I did not realize that he makes the cooling kit...that explains a lot.
You mean how I know so much about coil heating, fading, and why physics matters in the equation?
Quoted from mbeardsley:By the way, if Williams coils are so much more expensive to make than Stern coils, then why does Pinball Life sell them for less than they do Stern coils?
Maybe they just hate Stern and are willing to take a loss on the Williams coils...but want to screw over the Stern owners.
Again, you're judging RETAIL pricing. You can't do that if you're trying to guess what the change would cost Spooky.
Second, what coils are you looking at? I just checked a Stern 5032 - $16.95. Williams 11629 $16.95. I don't know if it's new math or what, but $16.95 = $16.95, generally speaking.
And there can be a lot of factors for why the Stern and Williams are the same retail price at PBL. Different suppliers, different construction, different profit margin by PBL, etc.
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:I love Munsters and it’s my granddaughter’s favorite so it’s going nowhere - but if ever there was a pin that deserved more coding attention and integration of the assets it already has - this is the one .
*Someone* has never played Wheel of Fortune...
Quoted from PinMonk:You mean how I know so much about coil heating, fading, and why physics matters in the equation?
Again, you're judging RETAIL pricing. You can't do that if you're trying to guess what the change would cost Spooky.
Second, what coils are you looking at? I just checked a Stern 5032 - $16.95. Williams 11629 $16.95. I don't know if it's new math or what, but $16.95 = $16.95, generally speaking.
And there can be a lot of factors for why the Stern and Williams are the same retail price at PBL. Different suppliers, different construction, etc.
I value what you do. Keep up the great work.
Quoted from boagman:*Someone* has never played Wheel of Fortune...
I'd play Wheel of Fortune all year long before I had any desire to play more Munsters. Even only mostly-finished, Wheel of Fortune code is Tolstoy compared to the Dr Seuss-sized code of Munsters.
Quoted from PinMonk:I'd play Wheel of Fortune all year long before I had any desire to play more Munsters. Even only mostly-finished, Wheel of Fortune code is Tolstoy compared to the Dr Seuss-sized code of Munsters.
Calling WOF's code "mostly-finished" is an insult to mostly-finished code *everywhere*. Munsters is more complete than WOF's at this point, from what I have seen, by far.
Quoted from boagman:Calling WOF's code "mostly-finished" is an insult to mostly-finished code *everywhere*. Munsters is more complete than WOF's at this point, from what I have seen, by far.
I haven't owned WoF in years, and though I noticed missing animations (extra ball, for sure) and things, the GAME had much more depth to it than Munsters, even in its incomplete state. Munsters code is a DRAG. So much unrealized potential and complete waste of Borg's design.
And when I did own WoF, I liked playing it. The same can't be said about Munsters after the first month.
Quoted from PinMonk:I haven't owned WoF in years, and though I noticed missing animations (extra ball, for sure) and things, the GAME had much more depth to it than Munsters, even in its incomplete state. Munsters code is a DRAG. So much unrealized potential and complete waste of Borg's design.
And when I did own WoF, I liked playing it. The same can't be said about Munsters after the first month.
Okay, but now we're talking about different things/aspects of code, then. Which is fine, and discussing the *quality* of the code of each machine is certainly on the table for debate, but when you reference "completeness" or "finishedness" of code, I differentiate that from the quality of the thing a great deal. Does that make sense?
Quoted from boagman:Okay, but now we're talking about different things/aspects of code, then. Which is fine, and discussing the *quality* of the code of each machine is certainly on the table for debate, but when you reference "completeness" or "finishedness" of code, I differentiate that from the quality of the thing a great deal. Does that make sense?
Hence the reason I compared WoF's "mostly finished" code to Tolstoy and Munsters "finished" code to Dr Seuss. The "unfinished" one has a LOT more code, and hence, more game.
Quoted from pinballaddicted:Too many conditions and too hard to please. If I was your distro you would be way down the list! Lucky I am not your distro!
I think you just told Stern""Serve me up the biggest hot mess of shit you can come up with, and ensure I pay a premium for it".
Quoted from PinMonk:Hence the reason I compared WoF's "mostly finished" code to Tolstoy and Munsters "finished" code to Dr Seuss. The "unfinished" one has a LOT more code, and hence, more game.
Does it, really, though? I mean, I don't know that I can agree with that, as "size of code" can be wide-but-shallow, or narrow-but-deep, and yet both could be the same size...just differently oriented.
Quoted from boagman:Does it, really, though? I mean, I don't know that I can agree with that, as "size of code" can be wide-but-shallow, or narrow-but-deep, and yet both could be the same size...just differently oriented.
I feel like we're slicing and dicing the bigger picture that WoF has more GAME in it than Munsters, even though WoF is notoriously unfinished.
WOF lasted a weekend. I got the to the end of the broken code, and that was it. The game is a dud in my opinion, it’s embarrassing.
The guy that bought it from me, it lasted a week.
Apparently there is one finished or nearly finished version somewhere in a WOF game, according to Keith himself.
When he left stern, it wasn’t with good feelings and that code was left on his work computer and what they did with it was out of his hands at that point (again, according to him)
Munsters on the other hand, is like Monster bash 2.0, it’s addicting, and I don’t really see much issue with the code besides the capped bonus x and a few other minor things.
It’s in my collection currently because it’s just pure fun and a change of pace from the other stuff.
Quoted from Roostking:I think you just told Stern""Serve me up the biggest hot mess of shit you can come up with, and ensure I pay a premium for it".
That is the beauty of this hobby, each to their own. If you do not like it, do not buy it and do not play it. You vote with your wallet and I will vote with mine. I have zero value about your opinion and it will in no way affect how my family loves and enjoys pinball machines from all manufacturers past and present.
Quoted from PinMonk:We disagree.
I still like you otherwise, though.
Quoted from Rarehero:This isn’t an agree/disagree thing. I get that you think it’s a good idea & that you want it. I want a CGC Big Bang Bar...and while it could happen, I don’t know that it will. You’re spreading disinformation by presenting it as an absolute fact that it’s actively being developed.
Who knows if there will be another vault or not? The new stuff seems to be flying off the shelf right now, whatever Stern is making.
If they ever do get around to doing another vault - it would not be surprising if they selected LOTR or TRON.
For all we know they MAY be working on it right now? MAY not. Sounds like one of you thinks it may, and the other thinks it will not. The point is neither of you know if it will happen or not; hell maybe not even Stern right now.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:WOF lasted a weekend. I got the to the end of the broken code, and that was it. The game is a dud in my opinion, it’s embarrassing.
You completed all 7 modes, WOF multiball, 4 trip multiballs (not to mention the big money, wild card, super modes, etc) in a single game in 2 days? That must have been some play session.
Or were you playing launch code? The launch code was VERY incomplete, but I liked the EM-like chimes they took out in the later versions. WoF v5 or 6.02 are both better than current Munsters BY FAR.
Quoted from PinMonk:You completed all 7 modes, WOF multiball, 4 trip multiballs (not to mention the big money, wild card, super modes, etc) in a single game in 2 days? That must have been some play session.
I had it for months and didn't sniff the end (TWSS).
Quoted from PinMonk:You completed all 7 modes, WOF multiball, 4 trip multiballs (not to mention the big money, wild card, super modes, etc) in a single game in 2 days? That must have been some play session.
Or were you playing launch code? The launch code was VERY incomplete, but I liked the EM-like chimes they took out in the later versions. WoF v5 or 6.02 are both better than current Munsters.
Comet is better than the Munsters
Quoted from Pinchild:Munsters was my worst NIB purchase ever
Terrible game
This is a completely subjective statement and incorrect by most of us that actually have owned this title over the long haul. John Borg did a stellar job with this pin, but Dwight fumbled the ball in not giving it proper attention to code like he has on all his other coded games. This is the thing that sticks in most people’s craw. Sales of the game have proven it is not a terrible game, rather the opposite of your personal opinion. It is presently a highly sought after game by many people that now realize they have been duped by the vocal negative few here on pinside that portray it as bad, because it is not what they were expecting. Many wanted it to be Batman 2.0 and I was one of them too and thought a great deal more Munsters material should have been included in the game. But the game itself, is great fun to play and is exciting, not boring in anyway.
I don’t buy the narrative some keep spouting that it was coded to be like an old B/W shallowly programmed game. Don’t buy that for a second at pricing of $10k. When all other $10k Stern’s get oodles and oodles of programming. Case in point: Munsters got to 1.03 and TMNT is 1.41, both coded by Dwight and both are the same price of $10k. Dwight did the same thing on all his other games, although GB took forever. Dwight has shamefully neglected Munsters in a major way and this alone has really put a bad karma over his coding now, to where many will not buy a Dwight coded game for fear he will not support it, just like he did to Munsters. The only way Xaqery or Dwight can correct this travesty is to give Munsters the proper attention it deserves, since we all paid the same for both TMNT and Munsters. Stern would have not sold any Munsters if people thought they were going to give it such little coding attention as they have.
Quoted from Thunderbird:This is a completely subjective statement and incorrect by most of us that actually have owned this titled over the long haul.
Wait, pinside is about objective opinions now?
Is this real life? "
Quoted from PinMonk:Wait, pinside is about objective opinions now?
Is this real life? "
Lol!
Quoted from Thunderbird:This is a completely subjective statement and incorrect by most of us that actually have owned this title over the long haul. John Borg did a stellar job with this pin, but Dwight fumbled the ball in not giving it proper attention to code like he has on all his other coded games. This is the thing that sticks in most people’s craw. Sales of the game have proven it is not a terrible game, rather the opposite of your personal opinion. It is presently a highly sought after game by many people that now realize they have been duped by the vocal negative few here on pinside that portray it as bad, because it is not what they were expecting. Many wanted it to be Batman 2.0 and I was one of them too and thought a great deal more Munsters material should have been included in the game. But the game itself, is great fun to play and is exciting, not boring in anyway. I don’t buy the narrative some keep spouting that it was coded to be like an old B/W shallowly programmed game. Don’t buy that for a second at pricing of $10k. When all other $10k Stern’s get oodles an oodles of programming. Case in point: Munsters got to 1.03 and TMNT is 1.41, both coded by Dwight and both are the same price of $10k. Dwight did the same thing on all his other games, although GB took forever. Dwight has shamefully neglected Munsters in a major way and this alone has really put a bad karma over his coding now, to where many will not buy a Dwight coded game for fear he will not support it, just like he did to Munsters. The only way @xavery or Dwight can correct this travesty is to give Munsters the proper attention it deserves, since we all paid the same for both TMNT and Munsters. Stern would have not sold any Munsters if people thought they were going to give it such little coding attention as they have.
The game blows
Quoted from Thunderbird:don’t buy the narrative some keep spouting that it was coded to be like an old B/W shallowly programmed game.
I think it was Dwight himself that said that he tried to make a simpler game like T2. Possibly with a suggestion from Gomez. I wish I couls find the podcast but it would take too much time to dig through them all.
Quoted from Pinchild:Munsters was my worst NIB purchase ever
Terrible game
I wish Munsters was amazing...I loved the show when I was a kid, the theme music is awesome, and the B&W Premium is one of the most gorgeous games I’ve ever seen.
So many pins with themes I love, but ultimately I won’t buy...GB, Munsters, GOTG, TMNT. Makes me a little sad.
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