(Topic ID: 326749)

What to do with this System 9 MPU?

By ROMM

3 months ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 14 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by ROMM
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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00_6810_pin_assignments.jpg
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#1 3 months ago

Looking for suggestions!

Picked up a Sorcerer recently, and the last owner said there were major issues with the MPU. It had battery damage that was repaired, and the board was actually salvaged, as the game mostly works other than no music, sound or speech. However, there are some hacks that were done, and some parts were not repopulated as you can see in the pics below. The board is completely missing SW2 (sound check switch) and I'm not sure, but the section that is missing components looks like it has to do with a reset (??). I can't even tell the jumper configuration at W1 and W2. As far as what comes out of the speakers, it is a humming sound that fluctuates with the lights, and moving the volume knob in the cabinet, the humming does fluctuate. The sound also fluctuates when moving the speech/sound mix pot on the sound board. I've looked at numerous threads about the sound issue, but not sure if I need to repopulate and repair the current damage before diving into the sound issue anymore. I've even contacted Dumbass about buying a new System 9 board, but the wait is long. Would love to have one though. He also suggested the Rottendog MPU9211, but I'm not sure who could burn the EPROMS correctly so that the board would work in a Sorcerer.

A few things I've tried (haven't checked any voltages yet, and I don't have an oscillator):
-swapped U4 and U13 memory, game boots and plays
-pulled and re-seated associated sound roms
-pulled the board and checked for continuity on the repaired traces and they show good
-many screws were missing form the MPU and sound board, installed all screws and they are good and tight

20221129_201938.jpg20221129_202004.jpg20221129_202022.jpg20221129_202032.jpg20221129_202046.jpg
#2 3 months ago

Parts aren't missing...the reset section has been scraped and reconfigured to use a modern reset generator as described in the PinWiki.

Corrosion is still evident by the black splotches under the solder mask.
It's a shame that whoever did the work didn't do ALL of the work.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#3 3 months ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Parts aren't missing...the reset section has been scraped and reconfigured to use a modern reset generator as described in the PinWiki.
Corrosion is still evident by the black splotches under the solder mask.
It's a shame that whoever did the work didn't do ALL of the work.

Thanks for pointing this out. I've been referencing the PinWiki quite a bit and missed that section. Didn't even bother looking under the "MPU boot issue" section as mine is booting fine. It's section 5.4.10 if anyone else was wondering

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_System_9_-_11#An_Alternative_to_Rebuilding_the_Reset_Circuit_.2F_Using_a_Reset_Generator_.28System_9.29

#4 3 months ago

One pin not soldered on that 6810 RAM.

pasted_image (resized).png
#5 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

One pin not soldered on that 6810 RAM.
[quoted image]

Nice catch. Looks like the next two are shorted to each other too.

#6 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

One pin not soldered on that 6810 RAM.

That is pin 13. It is the CS3 signal. It is tied to the E signal.

Quoted from pete_d:

Nice catch. Looks like the next two are shorted to each other too.

Those are pins 14 and 15. Those are ~CS4 and ~CS5. They are both tied to GND.

OP: I can't see what the sound processor at U11 is. If it is a 6808 you can install a 6802, remove the 6810 (U12) and move W2 to W1. W2 is currently installed and this ties the RE pin to GND. Doing this disables the internal SRAM of the 6802. If you move the jumper to W1 this will tie RE to VCC and enable the internal SRAM of the 6802 that replaces the 6810. The 6808 does not have any internal SRAM so if you want to use this solution you cannot use the 6808.

Relevant information:

00_system_9_cpu_sound_schematic.jpg01_6802_6808_re_pin.jpg

#7 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

One pin not soldered on that 6810 RAM.
[quoted image]

Make sure to clean the flux off with 90% isopropyl alcohol.

#8 3 months ago

Woa this is getting over my head lol. Last night I looked at the schematic for the pin that is not soldered and I figured it would be pin 2 not pin 13 lol. WTF? the pin is all that way at the end, not in the middle of RAM! Wow these schematics are hard to read! What is an E signal? What is VCC? U11 is a 6808. Swapping the jumper and installing different types of RAM is a solution? How? Sorry for the goofy questions! Much appreciate all of the helpful pointers and comments!

#9 3 months ago
Quoted from ROMM:

I've even contacted Dumbass about buying a new System 9 board, but the wait is long.

Hard to imagine not buying a Dumbass board though. I think it would be very worth the wait, even if 2 or 3 months. I'm sure this is a project game you bought, which I'm sure you have other parts of the game that need attention while you wait on this awesome new board from him.

Quoted from ROMM:

He also suggested the Rottendog MPU9211

I'm surprised. Rottendog boards are inferior and a crap shoot as you may get a working one, maybe not. Not to mention potential compatibility issues.

#10 3 months ago

Yes I will probably get one of his boards eventually. I plan to keep this machine, not flip it. It is a project. However, most everything is working well, better than I thought when I got the machine the other day. I've got every switch working, every solenoid, and all of the lights, except for the diagonal string and top string in the backbox that are part of the same circuit. Fixed the drop targets and spinners, working good now. Game works and plays well, scoring bonuses, specials, multi ball. Even the knocker and bell work. It does need some LED's (game is very dark with the incandescents) and some new rubbers. Has the incorrect plastics over the slings. Oh and the backglass is great! Cabinet is ok, fine for me.

#11 3 months ago

I see a Sorcerer Hardtop in your future. I would just play it hard until it comes available. Sure is a good game.

#12 3 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I'm surprised. Rottendog boards are inferior and a crap shoot as you may get a working one, maybe not. Not to mention potential compatibility issues.

I try to provide an option for those that cannot or do not want to wait. I usually put the caveat that there are potential issues with the board that can be found on this forum. I do this as a courtesy not really a recommendation. I actually recommend repair over replace but some boards are cost ineffective to repair. When I go into a store looking for something and it's not available I often ask the attendant if there is an alternative to what I am looking for. I preempt this with the suggestion. I have found a lot of people are unwilling to wait so for them, something is better than nothing.

Here is the paragraph I wrote (verbatim):

"If you cannot or do not want to wait then the Rottendog MPU9211 is compatible but requires EPROMs with special preparation for compatibility. You cannot use your original EPROMs with the MPU9211."

I see that I forgot to caveat the information. I'm a believer that people should do their own research on products but I also realize that not everybody does. Must've been busy thinking about something else. So common for me nowadays.

EDIT: Explicit clarification. I agree with PinballManiac40's comments and assessment. Rottendog boards do advertise themselves as "most affordable". When I see this I instantly think of "you can have it done quickly, cheaply or properly but you can only have two of the three". The implication here is that it is quick and cheap.

#13 3 months ago
Quoted from ROMM:

Last night I looked at the schematic for the pin that is not soldered and I figured it would be pin 2 not pin 13 lol. WTF? the pin is all that way at the end, not in the middle of RAM!

00_6810_pin_assignments.jpg

Quoted from ROMM:

What is an E signal?

01_6800_6802_e_signal.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_power-supply_pin

Quoted from ROMM:

U11 is a 6808. Swapping the jumper and installing different types of RAM is a solution? How? Sorry for the goofy questions! Much appreciate all of the helpful pointers and comments!

Quoted from DumbAss:

If it is a 6808 you can install a 6802, remove the 6810 (U12) and move W2 to W1.

3 weeks later
#14 3 months ago

Just a quick update. A fellow pinsider was able to get most of the board back to stock configuration and working 100%! Me and guests have been playing the machine quite a bit for the last week and it’s worked great so far. I’ll still probably get a Dumbass board eventually after the playfield restoration is done. Thanks again for all the excellent comments and information.

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