Highlands Ranch, CO
I voted nudging, but all the choices in the poll are required.
(Topic ID: 216955)
Some random thoughts and anecdotes about game knowledge...
1) Flipper skills and game knowledge have been continuously see-sawing for me over the last few years. There have been long periods of time where to practice for an upcoming event, it made more sense for me to study game rules...and other times it made more sense for me to just play and work on skills. If one got too far ahead, it was more beneficial to work on helping the other catch up.
2) There are 3 people locally who I expect to know just about everything regarding game rules on any game I'm about to play on location. Two are in the top 100, and the other is in the 2000s. The guy in the 2000s plays around 50 tournaments a year.
3) Of all the times I've heard someone lament their lack of game knowledge, I'd guess that 80-90% are cases where they're comparing themselves to players significantly more skilled than them in all/most other aspects.
4) *Some* game knowledge is very important. But even on modern Sterns, two or three sentences is all a good player needs. I was there when the current #45 in the world played his first three games of Iron Maiden. We talked about rules as he played, and his scores were 150m, 500m, 1b. On his second game, with no prior rules knowledge, he broke the Grand Champ....and then doubled that on his third game. In about 900 total plays on the machine, the next highest score across all players is around 600m.
5) I was playing Tron while thinking about this thread last night. I do somewhere around 1-4 ball control moves per controlled shot. Regardless of my rules knowledge, it takes me several moves/decisions just to get the ball to a place where I feel I can put that knowledge to good use.
Rules knowledge isn't #1...but it's the best scapegoat.
Assuming a modern machine, I'd say:
1) Accuracy (if you never miss, your game will last nearly forever)
2) Ball/Flipper Control
3) Most impactful 5% of the rules
4) Nudging
5) Mental Game
6) The other 95% of the rules
Quoted from ryanwanger:If you want to know the next thing you need to work on, start keeping track of how you lose each ball. Not just where it went, but what caused it to be out of control in the first place.
I started to do this last night -- mentally, not actually documenting. Thinking about the specific drain and the actions that led up to it. I do think that documenting this after each ball and reviewing after 5 or 10 games will be a valuable exercise. I also think that capturing every game on video and reviewing would be very beneficial. Nothing fancy, even a phone capture would do. Being able to watch the entire game for pros and cons.
I believe the best advice we can use will be from the great Chubbs Peterson.... it's all in the hips 
Just watch the movie “Tilt!” and do the same things Charles Durning does, especially that little dance.
They seem to do “just enough” to get a first instead of second or third instead of a fourth. They do this way more than the rest of us. Guess this falls under the nerves control.
I'm a good player that doesn't know Stern rules, so when I see great players I always think their deep knowledge of Stern games is what sets them apart 
Nudging and flipper skills take you from a noob to a competent player. The best players I see are the most efficient ones. They know what to stack, when to get what multiplier, when to time out modes because they just aren't worth it. Accuracy is #2, but if you're wasting your shots inoptimally because of lack of rules knowledge, it might as well be a missed shot.
The worst plays I see aren't "You flubbed that nudge" or "You missed The Final Draw shot!", they're "You could've just started tri-ball with the Smart Missile!" and "You had the game with your Powerball Mania bonus, why did you tilt!"
Quoted from ryanwanger:Assuming a modern machine, I'd say:
1) Accuracy (if you never miss, your game will last nearly forever)
2) Ball/Flipper Control
3) Most impactful 5% of the rules
4) Nudging
5) Mental Game
6) The other 95% of the rules
I am surprised to see mental game at #5 on your list. I feel like that is much higher and really plays into ability to be accurate and flipper control.
If I am playing for fun but focused (i.e. mental game is on point since no competitive stress) then I find the accuracy and control follow that mental state.
I am not sure how to explain it, but the whole "the game slows down" level of focus can make everything else fall in line.
I honestly suck at accuracy and ball control most of the time, but have the occasional ability to block out all distraction and light it up. I dont have the patience or persistence to work on the other stuff, but the focus is fun to try and improve.
Quoted from arcademojo:spyderturbo007 Hmm, I'm playing you This Thursday! What are you drinking? Got to keep my points up.
I'll never turn down a free Stella.
Quoted from Whysnow:I am surprised to see mental game at #5 on your list. I feel like that is much higher and really plays into ability to be accurate and flipper control.
If you get to include other aspects on the list under the umbrella of mental game, then I suppose it should be #1.
I totally agree that it helps with all those other areas. But a great mental game can't help someone who can't: hit shots, control the ball, nudge, or learn the rules.
Guisborough
Just ask Keith Elwin. There was an interview in Esquire magazine years ago that said "To win at pinball is to fail at life". I'm feeling bumper stickers fellas!
Quoted from Frippertron:Just ask Keith Elwin. There was an interview in Esquire magazine years ago that said "To win at pinball is to fail at life". I'm feeling bumper stickers fellas!
I love that... where is the t-shirt and bumper sticker crew...
Quoted from DNO:It was GQ, for the record.
And I have the tshirt, really.
Knew it was one of those lifestyle magazines. I guess Keith thought the interview went real well and that jerk snuck that comment in there.
Quoted from Nokoro:So I was just watching one of Bowen’s tutorials and noticed that he doesn’t take an unsafe shot. He plots and thinks about how to get to where he wants to go by taking safer shots that are less likely to go SDTM. I wish I had that discipline and accuracy.
Wouldn’t taking safe shots and avoiding risk fall under gameplay knowledge rather than accuracy?
Quoted from Eskaybee:Wouldn’t taking safe shots and avoiding risk fall under gameplay knowledge rather than accuracy?
Well, yes. Except for when I try to go for the safe shot and hit the dangerous shot instead. 
Quoted from Eskaybee:Wouldn’t taking safe shots and avoiding risk fall under gameplay knowledge rather than accuracy?
This is a very key point you make as I never understood “Gameplay Knowledge” to mean that. To be specific:
Gameplay Knowledge A:
Rules of the game like what shots score the most points, how to progress through modes, what modes to avoid altogether because they don’t score well, stacking multiballs or multipliers, whether bonuses are important etc.
Gameplay Knowlege B: Stuff like: Safety due to probablily of shots leading to drains (sucker target shots that are often designed to lead to drains). This is knowlege that can be be very specific to how the ball travels on some examples of this pin and not others. For example, on some examples of a game, hitting side of game while ball rolls down outer loop to push ball away from sling as ball comes to flipper. Knowledge like which shots are better/easier to backhand either to increase shot probability or reduce chance of side-to-side which can lead to outlane drains.
Although you could read about A or B and have it benefit your gameplay to a great extent, usually B is the knowlege you might pick up only from watching pro videos because it can be more subtle and change from one example of the game to another. B is the type of knowlege one would gain after owning a game for an extended period of time or what an pro would look for and understand much more quickly since their understanding of these subtle aspects is much deeper than a casual player such as myself. This includes all the ball bounce dynamics of the table including how the ball reacts hitting different parts of slings at different speeds, how and when drop catches, dead bounces will work effectively, nudging to get a lane or shake out of outlane and tons more.
So my main point is that up to this point I thought the poll’s “Gameplay Knowledge” referred to only A and not B. If the voters are including B as well then I am much more inclined to agree that it is very near the top.
It’s a good point made by Eskaybee and worth discussing.
What did you voters think of when you you read “Gameplay Knowledge” in the poll? Is there a name for Knowledge type B in our hobby?
Quoted from spinal:This is a very key point you make as I never understood “Gameplay Knowledge” to mean that. To be specific:
Gameplay Knowledge A:
Rules of the game like what shots score the most points, how to progress through modes, what modes to avoid altogether because they don’t score well, stacking multiballs or multipliers, whether bonuses are important etc.
Gameplay Knowlege B: Stuff like: Safety due to probablily of shots leading to drains (sucker target shots that are often designed to lead to drains). This is knowlege that can be be very specific to how the ball travels on some examples of this pin and not others. For example, on some examples of a game, hitting side of game while ball rolls down outer loop to push ball away from sling as ball comes to flipper. Knowledge like which shots are better/easier to backhand either to increase shot probability or reduce chance of side-to-side which can lead to outlane drains.
Although you could read about A or B and have it benefit your gameplay to a great extent, usually B is the knowlege you might pick up only from watching pro videos because it can be more subtle and change from one example of the game to another. B is the type of knowlege one would gain after owning a game for an extended period of time or what an pro would look for and understand much more quickly since their understanding of these subtle aspects is much deeper than a casual player such as myself. This includes all the ball bounce dynamics of the table including how the ball reacts hitting different parts of slings at different speeds, how and when drop catches, dead bounces will work effectively, nudging to get a lane or shake out of outlane and tons more.
So my main point is that up to this point I thought the poll’s “Gameplay Knowledge” referred to only A and not B. If the voters are including B as well then I am much more inclined to agree that it is very near the top.
It’s a good point made by Eskaybee and worth discussing.
What did you voters think of when you you read “Gameplay Knowledge” in the poll? Is there a name for Knowledge type B in our hobby?
I was thinking more type A. Knowing what shots to backhand, bump off the wall, etc. doesn’t even work on every example of those games so knowing that stuff can actually LEAD to drains. So I think gameplay knowledge should be mostly rules.
Quoted from spinal:This is a very key point you make as I never understood “Gameplay Knowledge” to mean that. To be specific:
Gameplay Knowledge A:
Rules of the game like what shots score the most points, how to progress through modes, what modes to avoid altogether because they don’t score well, stacking multiballs or multipliers, whether bonuses are important etc.
Gameplay Knowlege B: Stuff like: Safety due to probablily of shots leading to drains (sucker target shots that are often designed to lead to drains). This is knowlege that can be be very specific to how the ball travels on some examples of this pin and not others. For example, on some examples of a game, hitting side of game while ball rolls down outer loop to push ball away from sling as ball comes to flipper. Knowledge like which shots are better/easier to backhand either to increase shot probability or reduce chance of side-to-side which can lead to outlane drains.
Although you could read about A or B and have it benefit your gameplay to a great extent, usually B is the knowlege you might pick up only from watching pro videos because it can be more subtle and change from one example of the game to another. B is the type of knowlege one would gain after owning a game for an extended period of time or what an pro would look for and understand much more quickly since their understanding of these subtle aspects is much deeper than a casual player such as myself. This includes all the ball bounce dynamics of the table including how the ball reacts hitting different parts of slings at different speeds, how and when drop catches, dead bounces will work effectively, nudging to get a lane or shake out of outlane and tons more.
So my main point is that up to this point I thought the poll’s “Gameplay Knowledge” referred to only A and not B. If the voters are including B as well then I am much more inclined to agree that it is very near the top.
It’s a good point made by Eskaybee and worth discussing.
What did you voters think of when you you read “Gameplay Knowledge” in the poll? Is there a name for Knowledge type B in our hobby?
To a certain degree I thought of it as both; rules being the more obvious. But, the ability to watch an opponent play and pickup on the games’ awkward bounces, setup, and nuances and apply it to your gameplay would certainly fall under gameplay knowledge I would think. Which is why I brought it up
1 week later
Quoted from sethi_i:But I was meaning to focus on their abilities with regard to completing the final modes of games, not just winning tournaments.
Lots of pinball skills translate interchangeably between single-player wizard mode attempts and competitive play... but certainly not all of them.
Nudge more. A LOT more. Nudge when the ball is in spots that you've never nudged before. Play with players who are much better than you to get better appreciation for nudging. Gameplay videos are terrible for the purpose of seeing just how much and how often top players nudge.
Play one-handed. Seriously, especially if you have pins available to you on Free Play. Playing one-handed teaches SOOOOO much: forces you to anticipate much much earlier with your flipper decisions and nudging decisions, forces you to use the flippers to bounce more than to flip, forces you to slow the game down.
Specifically for wizard mode: use your game rule knowledge to jot down some notes of the sequence/order you want to do things to accomplish the milestones required for the wizard mode goals -- FORGET ABOUT SCORE.
Last: play for "wizard" modes cooperatively. The most fun I've had recently in pinball is going after Reactor 9 destruction on TNA with friends and a few drinks.
Quoted from Snailman:Nudge more. A LOT more.
Quoted from Snailman:Specifically for wizard mode: use your game rule knowledge to jot down some notes of the sequence/order you want to do things to accomplish the milestones required for the wizard mode goals -- FORGET ABOUT SCORE.
I think these are my numbers 1 and 2.
From everything people have said, I think to reach wizards modes, you take the shortest route and keep the ball in play. Knowing the rules, to know what is necessary and what isn't and how to get extra balls, has to be number 1. Don't waste shots and risk losing balls on things that don't advance to the wizard mode. As for nudging, this to me is a close #2. You have to keep the ball in play. Those 3 or 4 shot "house-balls" are a killer. I really need to eliminate those. My best games are always the ones where every ball is productive. That sounds pretty obvious, but it's easier said than done!
Knowing what to shoot is key. Just saw a video of a top player playing Whitewater. Hit the same two shots ignoring all else over and over about 100 times. Fishtales was basically 3-4 shots over and over. Paragon, 2 shots. They know the quickest route to the most points and exploit it.
Quoted from Snailman:Lots of pinball skills translate interchangeably between single-player wizard mode attempts and competitive play... but certainly not all of them.
Nudge more. A LOT more. Nudge when the ball is in spots that you've never nudged before. Play with players who are much better than you to get better appreciation for nudging. Gameplay videos are terrible for the purpose of seeing just how much and how often top players nudge.
Play one-handed. Seriously, especially if you have pins available to you on Free Play. Playing one-handed teaches SOOOOO much: forces you to anticipate much much earlier with your flipper decisions and nudging decisions, forces you to use the flippers to bounce more than to flip, forces you to slow the game down.
Specifically for wizard mode: use your game rule knowledge to jot down some notes of the sequence/order you want to do things to accomplish the milestones required for the wizard mode goals -- FORGET ABOUT SCORE.
Last: play for "wizard" modes cooperatively. The most fun I've had recently in pinball is going after Reactor 9 destruction on TNA with friends and a few drinks.
I love when the Pinburgh champ drops some knowledge! Thanks Colin.
Something I haven’t seen mentioned is recovery skills. I’d put those in 3 categories:
- recovering a ball that’s headed to drainland
- recovering a game after a really bad ball
- recovering a tournament after a really bad game
The first is physical, but the other 2 are 100% mental. I actually find those to be harder. When someone has 2 house balls and rallies to win on ball 3, that’s some Jedi-level stuff right there. Very rare for me.
Quoted from swampfire:Something I haven’t seen mentioned is recovery skills. I’d put those in 3 categories:
- recovering a ball that’s headed to drainland
- recovering a game after a really bad ball
- recovering a tournament after a really bad game
The first is physical, but the other 2 are 100% mental. I actually find those to be harder. When someone has 2 house balls and rallies to win on ball 3, that’s some Jedi-level stuff right there. Very rare for me.
repeat after me :
"pinball is a 1 ball game" ... "pinball is a 1 ball game" ... "pinball is a 1 ball game" ... "pinball is a 1 ball game" ... "pinball is a 1 ball game" ...
yesterday, just got 2 games on my T3, on these 2, the 1s ball was a direct house, but anyway i'll go to WM the 2 games
but OK, playing home is not the same of course
The OP never answered my question whether he's interested in location or tournament play (at high level, I presume). Those are completely different and people are conflating a lot of these ideas into one.
Conflating EMs and modern machines also doesn't make any sense.
In tournament play the best players can execute a strategy where the ball is under maximum control. Top players are never 'flow' players. Also, nudging is completely over-rated because top tournaments set their games EXTREMELY tight (EMs are different, of course).
There is no getting to wizard modes and any of that stuff.
On location tilt can be very loose and as long as you're physically strong you can keep the ball live forever. On location I also presume many people ARE interested in completing modes and getting to wizard modes, and trying more risky and fun strategies. I know that's what I'd do.
Quoted from pinballOsp:Top players are never 'flow' players.
Andrei Massenkoff is. I would put Daniele in there too.
Quoted from pinballOsp:Also, nudging is completely over-rated because top tournaments set their games EXTREMELY tight
Top players put on a clinic of nudging even on the tightest tilts
Quoted from pinballOsp:There is no getting to wizard modes and any of that stuff.
See Elwin’s complete dismantling of HOTK at circuit finals a couple years back.
Top players are going to be top players at tournaments and on location.
Quoted from pinballOsp:On location tilt can be very loose and as long as you're physically strong you can keep the ball live forever.
I’d like to challenge you to a dollar game on my local Medieval Madness. You’ll never tilt it and I would say the average ball times are under one minute.
Maybe the key to success is playing and not posting on pinside. It is very rare to find any of the IFPA top 25 posting here.
Quoted from pinballcorpse:Maybe the key to success is playing and not posting on pinside. It is very rare to find any of the IFPA top 25 posting here.
As a starting point it’s good to learn some tips on -how- to play when you practice. You also don’t see pro golfers taking group lessons but that doesn’t mean that taking lessons is a waste of time. The not-asking-basic-questions stage comes after you have the answers not before. Knowlege of all kinds is needed when starting out and I’m definately in that camp so have learned some things from this thread.
Quoted from pinballcorpse:Maybe the key to success is playing and not posting on pinside. It is very rare to find any of the IFPA top 25 posting here.
That's funny. Levi and Colin are probably our top rated "regulars" and I know they are top 25 material. I don't religiously follow the rankings but they are both legit beasts.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Andrei Massenkoff is. I would put Daniele in there too.
Andrei is awesome (and unique) and local but the fact is he struggles in certain types of games which demand control and not flow. He's outside the top 40 and hasn't been top 10 in quite some time.
Quoted from chuckwurt:see Elwin’s complete dismantling of HOTK at circuit finals a couple years back.
You post ONE example and the easiest mini-wizard mode to get to. So, no, wizard modes are not the goal of tournament pinball. Except HOTK
Quoted from chuckwurt:Top players put on a clinic of nudging even on the tightest tilts
So do many non-top players -- nudging does not make you a top player. There are many top players who barely ever nudge.
How much tournament experience do you have ?
Quoted from pinballOsp:So do many non-top players -- nudging does not make you a top player.
100% agree. See where it ranks on my list of skills on the front page of this thread.
Quoted from pinballOsp:There are many top players who barely ever nudge.
Agree here too. They don’t need to cause they are extremely accurate (my #1 trait a top player has)
Quoted from pinballOsp:How much tournament experience do you have ?
4 years give or take.
Fair enough on the other points. More wizard mode examples: scared stuff or bust! Tour the mansion or bust! Haha. But you’re right, most tournament players do not have the goal of reaching the wizard mode unless the game is setup to dictate that as a viable strategy. Just depends on the game and the setup and the payoff of getting there.
Another one. Slay the beast in gladiators!
Quoted from pinballOsp:The OP never answered my question whether he's interested in location or tournament play (at high level, I presume). Those are completely different and people are conflating a lot of these ideas into one.
I've posted many replies stating that the question was intended to figure out how the top players get to and complete "Wizard Modes"...not win tournaments. I even stated that in the original post. But I also understand why so many people take it to a discussion of tournament play. The way I phrased the topic title, the fact that pinball is a competitive game, and the fact that many skills translate to both all make the tournament discussion valid as well.
Quoted from Nokoro:So I was just watching one of Bowen’s tutorials and noticed that he doesn’t take an unsafe shot. He plots and thinks about how to get to where he wants to go by taking safer shots that are less likely to go SDTM. I wish I had that discipline and accuracy.
You are right that not shooting death targets, etc. is a good strategy. But being a top competitor takes more. Watch Bowen get a five ball multiball on Aerosmith in the finals of NYPC to take a win (PAPA Youtube). Those were extremely unsafe shots and he missed a lot finding it. He knows when a dangerous shot is necessary. A lot of his tutorials are not competitive strategies, they're getting to wizard modes and landing GCs. Plenty instructive though!
Edit- yeah I just saw that this wasn't specifically for competition. Oops. Anyway- there's more than one way to skin a cat. Pinball is fun, doing it well is really fun!-end edit
There's no magic bullet for being a good competitive player. There was another thread like this a while back and my answer was "being able to adjust". Miss a shot, but know how you missed- adjust, make the shot. Adjust to a weird feed- don't put the ball there anymore or make a move to change it. Adjust to the scores on the machine- maybe take the most dangerous shot because you have to. This has to do with focus and careful observation. Your brain can do a lot of the work for you (if you've already developed skills) if you can get it the information.
I think it has a lot to do with game knowledge which is an area I feel I lack and is very very possible to obtain. Put a top player on a machine and a mediocre player on a machine for 1 minute each with the outlane and the center drain blocked so neither can lose the ball and I guarantee the top player kills the mediocre player because they know WHAT to shoot to get the most points.
Quoted from pinballcorpse:Maybe the key to success is playing and not posting on pinside. It is very rare to find any of the IFPA top 25 posting here.
This is more of a result of the nonsense that goes on here. Keith, Bowen and other top dogs regularly post over at Tilt
Kamloops, BC
Thank you for your nice response overall. I felt bad about the tournament question, that is none of my f'ing business. I am in agreement with you overall
And let me add Andrei is really awesome to watch in person and a very nice guy, too
Oh, and medieval madness is pretty hard to move around, I'd throw my back out trying to do death saves/bang-backs on it so good point there.
Quoted from chuckwurt:100% agree. See where it ranks on my list of skills on the front page of this thread.
Agree here too. They don’t need to cause they are extremely accurate (my #1 trait a top player has)
4 years give or take.
Fair enough on the other points. More wizard mode examples: scared stuff or bust! Tour the mansion or bust! Haha. But you’re right, most tournament players do not have the goal of reaching the wizard mode unless the game is setup to dictate that as a viable strategy. Just depends on the game and the setup and the payoff of getting there.
Another one. Slay the beast in gladiators!
Quoted from sethi_i:I've posted many replies stating that the question was intended to figure out how the top players get to and complete "Wizard Modes"...not win tournaments. I even stated that in the original post. But I also understand why so many people take it to a discussion of tournament play. The way I phrased the topic title, the fact that pinball is a competitive game, and the fact that many skills translate to both all make the tournament discussion valid as well.
Thank you for clarifying. As chuck posted, of course if you're a top tournament player you'll have no trouble reaching the wizard modes.
Luckily for most of us -- myself included -- wizard modes are accessible to far more people then placing top 10 in PAPA A
Personally I've beaten most games on location and I would get destroyed and owned in A and B. I know many local guys who have reached the various wizard modes and yet would be unable to compete with the top 100.
My personal strategy for location wizard modes is:
1. complete understanding of bounces, safe returns and traps on the machine
2. complete plan for multi-balls, extra balls and modes. This is repeatable so I can learn it
3. use multi-balls to make progress, not score high
4. get all the extra balls I can
5. nudging and slide saves
6. often 1 death save per ball it's sad I know
It seems pretty simple but what do I know. Hope this helps
Quoted from pinballOsp:Personally I've beaten most games on location and I would get destroyed and owned in A and B.
It’s funny you say this because I’m the exact opposite for whatever reason. I’m a much better tournament player than I am a wizard mode hunter or hell even a high score chaser. I’ve put up way fewer initials than I have won competitive matches.
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
