(Topic ID: 233519)

What's with all these B List pins selling for A List prices lately?


By NorCalRealtor

4 months ago



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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by drsfmd
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    There are 81 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 4 months ago

    Weird trend lately where nicer examples of B List pins are selling for A List prices. The following have all sold for $5k or more recently: Congo, BSD, I500, T2, even TFTC, and others I'm sure.

    All were nice examples and not bad pins, but with so many other pins perennially regarded as superior (A List) for the same money, why not just get one of those instead?

    $5k gets you a restored Funhouse, a restored Fathom, very nice Creech, very nice WH20, very nice Champ Pub, Metallica, Maiden, LOTR, SM, pretty soon HUO Monster Bash Remakes. Are those choices not superior?

    And what ever happened to having an above-average example of a particular title and as such pricing it toward the top of the usual range? Like if a pin usually sells for $2500-$3000, you ask $3000. Nope. Now sellers are adding +$2000.

    Most recently I'm seeing ads with already jumbo asking prices and in the copy finding that mods & add-ons are Not Included, with a separate price list for those. That's a new one.

    IMO this is the biggest negative that has come about from our hobby surging in popularity. A tremendous surge of greedy sellers, and disappointingly no shortage of impatient new money waiting on the other end. It is making an entire era of pins un-collectible for sane collectors. Seems like you've got to go nearly new, or very old, or very undesirable, in order to get a fair price. Or deal strictly with friends.

    What do you guys think about this? Has the price insanity impacted which eras you are collecting? Do you mind paying $5k for a nice B List pin?

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    #2 4 months ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    What do you guys think about this?

    It's lame, but the market speaks.

    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Has the price insanity impacted which eras you are collecting?

    Welcome to western Canada 2.5 years ago.

    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Do you mind paying $5k for B List pins?

    Not a chance. Pay a couple grand more and buy brand new. Better games with less headaches. Or the complete opposite. Wait for killer deals on older beat up ones and add them to the queue for fixing.

    #3 4 months ago

    In some cases it’s nice machines becoming available that normally don’t trade hands or rarely if they do. There are some titles that people tend to hold onto, so despite “common” production numbers their availabilty would imply “rarity”. Another situation is the cult status of Bally Williams as “ they’re not making anymore” and since as you indicated their “b” titles so they will never get remade by cgc.

    #4 4 months ago

    Good points.

    I also feel like the remakes are making some hesitant to cough up the bucks for classic WPC A-listers, and perhaps the rarity of the B-listers (that most likely won't be remade) is boosting the prices. As somebody that has a TOM (rumored) and a MB (LOL), I'm certainly weary of picking up any A-list 90's stuff now.

    And yes, it's happening rather quickly: I've only been in three years and change. One of my first pickups was a really nice WH20 w/ perfect topper for $3700. Seems like 5k gets you a decent playing beater now.

    I dunno, I just dropped $4500 on a perfect HUO BK2000 so I don't know what the hell my buying habbits are anymore haha.

    Safest bet for me lately is picking up HUO Sterns that have been out for 1-2 years, and will probably continue along that path for the most part.

    #5 4 months ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Weird trend lately where nicer examples of B List pins are selling for A List prices. The following have all sold for $5k or more recently: Congo, BSD, I500, T2, even TFTC, and others I'm sure.
    All were nice examples and not bad pins, but with so many other pins perennially regarded as superior (A List) for the same money, why not just get one of those instead?
    $5k gets you a restored Funhouse, a restored Fathom, very nice Creech, very nice WH20, very nice Champ Pub, Metallica, Maiden, pretty soon HUO Monster Bash Remakes. Are those choices not superior?
    And what ever happened to having an above-average example of a particular title and as such pricing it toward the top of the usual range? Like if a pin usually sells for $2500-$3000, you ask $3000. Nope. Now sellers are adding +$2000.
    Most recently I'm seeing ads with already jumbo asking prices and in the copy finding that mods & add-ons are Not Included, with a separate price list for those. That's a new one.
    IMO this is the biggest negative that has come about from our hobby surging in popularity. A tremendous surge of greedy sellers, and disappointingly no shortage of impatient new money waiting on the other end. It is making an entire era of pins un-collectible for sane collectors. Seems like you've got to go nearly new, or very old, or very undesirable, in order to get a fair price. Or deal strictly with friends.
    What do you guys think about this? Has the price insanity impacted which eras you are collecting? Do you mind paying $5k for a nice B List pin?

    Couldn’t have said it better!! Although I’m fairly new to the hobby, I’ve done enough research to see the drastic price disparities. I have learned to be patient and stand strong on what the true value of the machine is.

    #6 4 months ago
    Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

    Safest bet for me lately is picking up HUO Sterns that have been out for 1-2 years, and will probably continue along that path for the most part.

    That right there is right on the money.

    #7 4 months ago

    Now, that's rare. When something that old is truly mint, CQ, perfect, then that's worth a healthy premium. These $5k B List pins I'm seeing are not at that level.

    #8 4 months ago

    People need more money rolling over old games to buy new ones.

    With lots of new games coming in 2019, more money is needed if we want to keep up.

    LTG : )

    #9 4 months ago
    Quoted from Phat_Jay:

    since as you indicated their “b” titles so they will never get remade by cgc.

    Interesting point, but does their unlikeliness to be remade really make them all of a sudden worth A money? It will take a decade just to remake 1/2 the A-List.

    #10 4 months ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Weird trend lately where nicer examples of B List pins are selling for A List prices. The following have all sold for $5k or more recently: Congo, BSD, I500, T2, even TFTC, and others I'm sure.
    All were nice examples and not bad pins, but with so many other pins perennially regarded as superior (A List) for the same money, why not just get one of those instead?
    $5k gets you a restored Funhouse, a restored Fathom, very nice Creech, very nice WH20, very nice Champ Pub, Metallica, Maiden, LOTR, SM, pretty soon HUO Monster Bash Remakes. Are those choices not superior?
    And what ever happened to having an above-average example of a particular title and as such pricing it toward the top of the usual range? Like if a pin usually sells for $2500-$3000, you ask $3000. Nope. Now sellers are adding +$2000.
    Most recently I'm seeing ads with already jumbo asking prices and in the copy finding that mods & add-ons are Not Included, with a separate price list for those. That's a new one.
    IMO this is the biggest negative that has come about from our hobby surging in popularity. A tremendous surge of greedy sellers, and disappointingly no shortage of impatient new money waiting on the other end. It is making an entire era of pins un-collectible for sane collectors. Seems like you've got to go nearly new, or very old, or very undesirable, in order to get a fair price. Or deal strictly with friends.
    What do you guys think about this? Has the price insanity impacted which eras you are collecting? Do you mind paying $5k for a nice B List pin?

    this is really just reality.

    You would be a perfect example. You have around 70k in machines.
    You like and want BSD.
    However, there are only 855 listed owners on Pinside with a BSD and 647 with that game on their wishlist.

    When you have 70k worth of toys and get tired of buying a majority of brand spanking new prem/LEs, you often want a solid classic form the 90s and you are happy to pay less than NIB for a nice example that somehow survived all these years and other collectors have likely brought back life and put time and money into making them play and look good.

    norcal collection (resized).JPGnorcal BSD (resized).JPGBSD wants (resized).JPG
    #11 4 months ago

    I call it the "jig is up" syndrome.

    Good examples are finally gone after 25+ years. It is likely walking down a set of stairs as more of the lower titles are pulled up to the higher price ranges.
    Until general pinball interest drops, new collectors will continue to pay above average prices due to lack of knowledge or feel they "must have" a certain cookie cutter collection game title. The same same happened with direct WPC A-titles in the early 2000s. Scared Stiff definately comes to mind.

    This applies to other non-WPC games as well. Fathom and Centaur are good examples which spiked in early 2000.

    I can also point to something else. People are starting to finally figure out that not all present new games are comparable to earlier classics. "Retro" remake games made by CGC are gaining faster traction mostly out exposure of availability.

    #12 4 months ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    People need more money rolling over old games to buy new ones.
    With lots of new games coming in 2019, more money is needed if we want to keep up.
    LTG : )

    Lloyd is correct.

    As the saying goes, “a high tide raises all ships”.

    When a new FlavorOfTheMonth LE is $9000, a seller goes “well, look at my xxx, it’s gotta be worth $5000”

    Or ... “if I can get $5000 for my xxx, I’ll buy a new game”

    The problem is with the buyers. If they didn’t fall over themselves to pay the high asking prices, the prices would fall back down.

    Restraint is hard to find in this hobby.

    (Before anyone says “says the guy with 120 pins”, I haven’t paid crazy prices for any of them... if it’s not a good deal, I move on. No FOMO here)

    rd

    #13 4 months ago

    My only issue with this is when the seller puts up a huge price with the words "firm" next to it. I am okay with someone asking above normal price. I mean if someone wants to pay it, who is to stop them? But they get so offended when you offer or suggest the "actual" price range. In my opinion, no offer on a used game should be firm...but that's just me.

    #14 4 months ago

    As a new person to the hobby (looking for my first pin) I have to say I was surprised at the prices for pins these days. I don’t think good classic pins at a decent price are unobtainable, it just seems to have to look harder and be prepared to jump on a deal the minute it comes up.

    Personally I can’t justify paying $6500 for a 30 year old TAF when you could buy a 2-3 year old Stern for $4500-5000. I loved TAF when I was a kid but not that much!

    My current plan is to find a couple of system 11 pins at good prices and then buy one modern pin that is about 2-3 years behind the bleeding edge like maybe a Ghostbusters pro once everyone starts selling them to buy Munsters or Willy Wonka, etc.

    #15 4 months ago

    "The great cash out of 2019."

    All prices up acrossT the board. So high that it's become almost impossible to price something "fair" or whatever even YOU think the market is. I thik a lot of people think, for real this time, the bottom is finally dropping out and are getting out at the top.
    Just theories of course.

    EDIT: and obviously more 'rich' people.

    #16 4 months ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    The problem is with the buyers. If they didn’t fall over themselves to pay the high asking prices, the prices would fall back down. Restraint is hard to find in this hobby.
    rd

    Another great point. How much can you fault the seller for his insane asking price when apparently there's a fair chance an insane buyer will appear? I can't condone pricing insanity, but you're right. You can't completely blame the sellers anymore either.

    I feel extra bad for any new blood of average means entering the hobby today. With the B List now out of reach their choices are very limited. Want ads for Waterworld, Shaq Attack, and Raven are not far off.

    #17 4 months ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Want ads for Waterworld, Shaq Attack, and Raven are not far off.

    We're already there

    Screen Shot 2019-01-09 at 5.32.56 PM (resized).png
    #18 4 months ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    ... if it’s not a good deal, I move on. No FOMO here.
    rd

    This is the biggest problem in my opinion. So many people must have a game and no one wants to miss out on it.

    #19 4 months ago

    I started in this hobby in 2003 when a STTNG was $2000. I've just accepted the fact that Congo is now a $5000 game. But TFTC and Stargate for $5000? I'm still choking on that. But as stated above, market dictates the price and if there are people willing to pay that, I won't call the seller greedy.

    #20 4 months ago

    Just wait for the recession...

    #21 4 months ago
    Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

    We're already there [quoted image]

    Damn! LOL. Things are even worse than I thought.

    #22 4 months ago

    When I bought my first machine Genie was $300 for a project. My grail is Addams and they were for sale all the time for $3500 and I thought that was too high at the time. Never did I think that routed ones with electric chair holes the size of tangerines would be listed for $8000. I should have bit the bullet back then and just bought one. When I got in the hobby you only saw Medieval Madness for 10 to 15K and now you can get a brand new one for 7k so something’s have gone the other way.

    #23 4 months ago

    Yeah, those T2 pins that people are asking $3500 to $4500 for are just crazy. It's not even a good game. I'm just glad I bought most my games years ago and still like early non-DMD games. If it really has to be a DMD game there are many nice Stern games out there for same price that are funner to play.

    #24 4 months ago

    The high and higher prices of new pins can't help but pull the used market up as well. Until pinball becomes unfashionable (once again), this is just how things are gonna go.

    #25 4 months ago

    A market doesn't have to make sense for it to exist and for people to run prices up, speculate, etc. It just needs enough "players" buying into it, feeling that even though what they're paying is HIGH, it's still not at the top. Just look at what happened with Bitcoin for a while. As long as it looks like the market will keep trending upward, all is good. Soon as it's no longer all rainbows and sunshine, people are a bit more careful in throwing money around. I'm with others here in regard to the next economic downturn deciding where the peaks of pricing occur.

    I've been wondering if there are any other recent collectible / hobby markets that have seen this kind of rise in pricing in the last 3-5 years. Aside from video arcade games that is.

    #26 4 months ago

    Too many new buyers want to jump right into NiB machines without even trying old used games first. For the most part, this is a mistake. I found out I actually PREFER the gameplay of early SS pins, imagine that. Save myself lots of money. Get a Stern Meteor!

    #27 4 months ago

    Music to my ears! Everyone laughed when I spoke of my shaq attack as my secret retirement nest egg. Bwaaaaahhhaaaa

    Who's laughing now!

    Public Service to newbies-

    In no way let me steer you to a shaq, it's cancer.

    #28 4 months ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Weird trend lately where nicer examples of B List pins are selling for A List prices. The following have all sold for $5k or more recently: Congo, BSD, I500, T2, even TFTC, and others I'm sure.

    All were nice examples and not bad pins, but with so many other pins perennially regarded as superior (A List) for the same money, why not just get one of those instead?

    $5k gets you a restored Funhouse, a restored Fathom, very nice Creech, very nice WH20, very nice Champ Pub, Metallica, Maiden, LOTR, SM, pretty soon HUO Monster Bash Remakes. Are those choices not superior?

    I have been collecting since 1999. Since then, I have never seen pricing go downwards on Solid State pins. What is kind of funny though is that the "better" games you listed were mostly lowered priced titles for a long time (often only being within a 100 or 200 from the prices of the B titles you mentioned). I passed on PLENTY of of those B titles at $800, and plenty of those A titles at $1000/1100.

    I think it is a combination of NIB pricing exploding, much larger parts availability to make most tiles look new, and the supply of used machines from operators dwindling. Most of the used machines I see available today are in much nicer shape than the ones that were always readily available in the early 00's.

    11
    #29 4 months ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    It's not even a good game

    Yes it is. T2 is a perfectly good game, fun to shoot, great sound, not too hard or deep, good for parties. What's stupid really is the dumb snobbery. Creech is A list! BSD is B list! Who gives a fuck? If the game is good and you want it you can pay for it or not.

    In this age of idiots making videos to beg to buy Batman 66 I really can't move my needle over someone buying a nice classic they want to enjoy.

    #30 4 months ago

    Too many people believe the price pumpers. Also the high price of restoring a game adds to perceived value of a nice original. Also finally rare is becoming valuable in this hobby. I passed up many games like eclipse , catacomb, asteroid annie , pink panther , seawitch ,because nobody wanted them. Now they are approaching new pro prices , if you believe the hype.

    #31 4 months ago

    I gotta laugh when dudes just slap a new set of decals on and then call it "restored". All this new money doesn't know any better.

    #32 4 months ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Yes it is. T2 is a perfectly good game, fun to shoot, great sound, not too hard or deep, good for parties. What's stupid really is the dumb snobbery. Creech is A list! BSD is B list! Who gives a fuck? If the game is good and you want it you can pay for it or not.
    In this age of idiots making videos to beg to buy Batman 66 I really can't move my needle over someone buying a nice classic they want to enjoy.

    Dumb snobbery? Okay Snidely. We all know some pins are better than others, and more valuable. A,B,C is a very general and sensible way of grouping them together. If pinball labels offend you that's on you.

    #33 4 months ago

    I used to ask, “what’s with these b-list pins selling for $2500?!”

    I was used to buying Congos and doctor whos for 900 bucks all day long.

    I’ve learned to accept it. So should you!

    Until of course, the bubble bursts! Which I’m told monthly is about to happen.

    13
    #34 4 months ago

    “B list” games are just as fun as a lot of “A list” games.

    #35 4 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I used to ask, “what’s with these b-list pins selling for $2500?!”
    I was used to buying Congos and doctor whos for 900 bucks all day long.
    I’ve learned to accept it. So should you!
    Until of course, the bubble bursts! Which I’m told monthly is about to happen.

    Hell, people in this thread are still predicting it. Apparently the new prediction of the bubble bursting every week for years has been wrong every time.

    #36 4 months ago

    The buble has been predicted to burst any minute for years now still waiting....

    #37 4 months ago

    Prices on all games are going up because nib games are going up or vice versa.
    10k now for nib le wow!

    #38 4 months ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Yes it is. T2 is a perfectly good game, fun to shoot, great sound, not too hard or deep, good for parties. What's stupid really is the dumb snobbery. Creech is A list! BSD is B list! Who gives a fuck? If the game is good and you want it you can pay for it or not.
    In this age of idiots making videos to beg to buy Batman 66 I really can't move my needle over someone buying a nice classic they want to enjoy.

    I was one of those idiots you mention but don't really feel like I was being one at the time or even now - was a bit of fun actually

    #39 4 months ago

    This is nothing new.
    These games have been going up in value for years.
    IJs cheaper than ToM

    At the same time my health insurance that was $300 back then is $1290 a month now and the groceries that were $200 a week are $400.
    It isn’t a A or B title it is typical inflation and so it goes.
    Just like when my mom tells me about 10 cent drinks and $150 house payments.

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
    #40 4 months ago

    A couple operators that ive cleaned out of pinballs 15 or so years ago are now looking for pinballs as their locations are requesting them again.

    #41 4 months ago

    Some great points above.

    I think Remakes of the A titles make the B titles a little more appealing because any Schmoo, like myself, can buy a new MB, AFM or MM and get it delivered next week. These A games are still special to own and play - true, but owning the A listers, like MM and MB, isn't as big of a deal anymore collecting wise. That being said with BSD randomly going for $4000+ every now and then, you would think that a game like TZ would raise to $8,000+, but TZ could get remade, so that keeps the current TZ price in check. BSD will likely not get remade, so the B listers get a bump in value while the A listers hit a ceiling. If the B listers get too much of a bump they will also get remade though, so.......

    Also Solid players just love to play pinball also. Solid players like to hang out with each other and compete and play in leagues ETC.. These players like the A listers but also covet the B/C listers to play and practice on, especially if the game is not as common. A skilled player may more likely run and play a BSD than AFM for the experience. You see AFM everywhere now, but BSD not so much, so owning BSD can get you more street cred than AFM. That could make a lot of B list prices go up also.

    I mean I think AFM is a better game than BSD, but I think BSD is a little cooler to own than AFM. I know I am not as cool as a typical BSD owner so all good here with my AFM.

    #42 4 months ago

    Or are we at the point where B/W buyers don't care if they take a hit on resale just like the hits folks who buy NIB are willing to take all the time?

    "Bought BSD for $5,000, had it a year and sold it for $4,200 to fund my $5,000 Flintstones"

    Is this a new thing?!

    #43 4 months ago
    Quoted from pinnyheadhead:

    Or are we at the point where B/W buyers don't care if they take a hit on resale just like the hits folks who buy NIB are willing to take all the time?
    "Bought BSD for $5,000, had it a year and sold it for $4,200 to fund my $5,000 Flintstones"
    Is this a new thing?!

    Now that would be a giant pinball sea change. Pinheads have gotten used to breaking even or making money on their games. That’s how they justify spending thousands on a “box of lights”. As that begins to break down, you have to wonder if the continued rise in prices is sustainable.

    #44 4 months ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    As that begins to break down, you have to wonder if the continued rise in prices is sustainable.

    Continual increasing prices is not sustainable as demonstrated by pinball technology and games of the past. What happens is a leveling out based on age and economic prosperity. It starts up again in 10-15 year intervals.

    People have to be willing to wait and watch the wheels of time turn. WPC games have around a decade or so left in their "premium" status. The only thing can accelerate this negative aspect is a poor economy or loss of fashionable interest. This second part is highly unpredictable.

    If a pinball collector is patient, no money is generally lost.

    People should keep in mind that NIB and used game markets are not interchangeable, which is a common error. I have seen this noted several times in this thread.

    #45 4 months ago
    Quoted from pinnyheadhead:

    "Bought BSD for $5,000, had it a year and sold it for $4,200 to fund my $5,000 Flintstones"
    Is this a new thing?!

    For some the answer is “Yabba-Dabba do.”
    No thanks.

    #46 4 months ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    If a pinball collector is patient, no money is generally lost.

    Exactly.
    If I’m buying a “keeper” I will pay premium if need be, as it seems price will catch up eventually. I bought a STELLAR BSD 2-3 years ago and paid $3,500 to my door. Local friends couldn’t believe I would spend that much. Same friends now tell me that my game is easily over $4,000 if I were to sell it. I just did it again last week. I spent over 3k on a T2 (something I would NEVER had done) but guess what? When it’s time to sell years from now I would bet I’ll get it back

    #47 4 months ago

    By the way, going with the above statements I’m picking up the last of the “B” and “C” titles I would want in my collection, while they are “affordable”.

    #48 4 months ago

    T2 not a good game ? That’s BS

    #49 4 months ago

    Wow! Read all the posts. I guess, after all, I am not totally insane to completely restore a Space Jam? New play field, plastics, decals.... and al?
    OMG! )))

    #50 4 months ago

    I remember when comic books were a nickel and a pack of baseball cards was 10 cents.

    Like Lloyd said, people need to free up $$$ to buy the new NIB's and some smart buyers are patiently picking up good deals on the secondary market

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