Get a few drinks in me and I'm notorious for giving a game (ahem especially a new significantly lighter stern machine) a good flick of the wrist and get that ball back. I blame having a few DE pins in the house for too long during the pandemic.
Why is this considered in poor taste?
Quoted from mbrave77:ive always seen its not good for the machines
I agree if the games are too close together. Bad for the cabinet heads.
I kind of refuse to believe that it's any worse for the cabinets than any other big save.
And yes, obviously, a no no in tournaments of competition play.
A lot of stuff that seems like a great idea when you’ve “gotten a few drinks in you” isn’t always a good idea in practice.
On location, sure, why not? With a wiling floor and enough room I’ll go for it. But it’s incredibly disrespectful and in bad taste to attempt a death save on someone’s private home collection for any number of reasons that don’t really need explanation.
Pinball machines are built to endure way more abuse than a mere death save, but I can see why people wouldn't appreciate someone else manhandling their $6000 Stern. I do death saves on my own stuff all the time, but saving a ball is rarely worth pissing off another owner.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:A lot of stuff that seems like a great idea when you’ve “gotten a few drinks in you” isn’t always a good idea in practice.
Fair enough.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:On location, sure, why not?
I should clarify that that's exclusively a location based activity.
Just seems only a hair away from a legs-off-the-ground tilt. If I saw someone doing it at my location they would be out on their ass in seconds. No refunds!
A lot of collectors and operators wouldn't appreciate you doing death saves on their machines, and you get so used to doing it on your own machines. As soon as that ball heads down that right outlane you instantly feel like shuffling the machine left to right to initiate a death save. If you accidentally (or intentionally) pull it off at someone else's gameroom or on location, I'd expect to get an earful or kicked out. Also, if you start entering competitions and you do a death save, you're disqualified.
So, once I could do it, I just kind of stopped doing it as I didn't want to get so used to doing it that I might accidentally pull that trick out when I didn't want to.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:legs-off-the-ground tilt.
First time I've heard this term.
Why would it be ok to do on location? Ultimately, someone owns the game, whether it's the owner of the establishment, a route owner, enthusiast, etc. If your own game, of course, do whatever you'd like.
Quoted from FatPanda:Why would it be ok to do on location? Ultimately, someone owns the game, whether it's the owner of the establishment, a route owner, enthusiast, etc. If your own game, of course, do whatever you'd like.
It’s a debate that rages through time, throughout the ages, and throughout the annals of RGP and Pinside history.
At the end of the day, a location game is accessible to the general public, and the general public always has a wide range of what they think is acceptable and what they will do. “Death saves” are far from the most egregious behavior a public pinball can be subjected to. We’ve all seen it…gum, graffiti, stickers, cigarette burns…long story short, ultimately, you can’t protect your location game from what some drunk or 12 year old is going to do to it.
It’s just something anybody would need to consider before putting their game in a bar or public location.
I like how many of you assume people like me enough to invite me over to play their home collections.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:A lot of stuff that seems like a great idea when you’ve “gotten a few drinks in you” isn’t always a good idea in practice.
On location, sure, why not? With a wiling floor and enough room I’ll go for it. But it’s incredibly disrespectful and in bad taste to attempt a death save on someone’s private home collection for any number of reasons that don’t really need explanation.
Pretty much this. I have no problem abusing my own games but I'm not going to do anything to someone else's game that may cause damage.
Quoted from radial_head:I like how many of you assume people like me enough to invite me over to play their home collections.
I mean, it's surprisingly happened with me (people inviting me over), LOL.
So again, I've yet to see a death save cause damage outside of heads banging together (which is a big no no in my book).
What damage does this cause to a game again?
Quoted from radial_head:So again, I've yet to see a death save cause damage outside of heads banging together (which is a big no no in my book).
What damage does this cause to a game again?
Other than the heads banging together, as long as the leg bolts are tight, and the cabinet has good structural integrity, you've probably got more of a chance in damaging the flooring than the machine*.
Speaking of cabinet structural integrity: There were some recent DMD era Sterns (looking at my AC/DC Luci) that didn't have good cabinet corner bracing. Those I wouldn't want to death save on, out of fear of cracking a cabinet corner seam. I added metal reinforcement angles to my AC/DC Luci. After that, I was fine with the death save attempts on it.
*Edit: I suppose there is the potential to damage legs. See Drypaint's post 3 spots below.
Quoted from FatPanda:Why would it be ok to do on location? Ultimately, someone owns the game, whether it's the owner of the establishment, a route owner, enthusiast, etc. If your own game, of course, do whatever you'd like.
I asked a local operator, who owns Tilt, if he's concerned about aggressive saves, and his answer was a non-committal "well, the business is called Tilt, so?"
Quoted from CrazyLevi:A lot of stuff that seems like a great idea when you’ve “gotten a few drinks in you” isn’t always a good idea in practice.
On location, sure, why not? With a wiling floor and enough room I’ll go for it. But it’s incredibly disrespectful and in bad taste to attempt a death save on someone’s private home collection for any number of reasons that don’t really need explanation.
Why is it ok on location but not someone's home? That makes no sense. My collection is at my location and it is not public property. I have two machines right now that are on the floor with bent legs from two different jerks that wanted to "practice" death saving.
One is a custom powder coated game that I won't be able to match the finish on.
There is another location near me that had Metallica and a few other Stern's from that period get cabinets split during league from a few dudes that thought it was cool.
If you want to death save stay at home and fk up your own machines. Don't come to my place and do it.
How does $0.50 to a $1.00 give you the right to run the risk of damaging someone's property? If your ball drains, be a man and deal with it. It's a game, throw a few more quarters in, I'm sure most of us here are not 10 year olds with no jobs.
Here is an image I had made...
Can someone explain the difference between a “death save” and a “slide save”? I think I have seen and done both but looking for clarification.
I have not worked the “slap save” into my muscle memory toolbox yet and tend to just jink it when the flipper is just out of reach often (but not always) to the protest of the tilt mechanism. Obviously this method has a far better payout on machines with tilt warnings…
To me, if you can do death save easily on any game that means the tilt is not tight enough and also the legs are not tight enough. A new Stern feels like it weighs 1000 pounds if you tighten the leg bolts a little extra and put it on rubber feet. The plastic aprons on Pros seems to bounce more than Premiums and LE metal aprons, so that is in the mix too.
Slide save is on tile or concrete usually. If there are no cracks in the floor and it's truly smooth, you won't hurt the game, maybe scratch the floor though. The machine will slide, moving the playfield under the ball.
Slap saves are fine. They can be loud, but won't break or bend anything.
Quoted from LORDDREK:Can someone explain the difference between a “death save” and a “slide save”? I think I have seen and done both but looking for clarification.
A slide save is an aggressive move to one side or the other when a ball is headed for a straight down the middle drain.
A death save is when a ball goes down the right outlane and then a player nudges the ball when it hits hits the apron to bounce into the trough, bouncing the ball back into play.
It's fucking obvious why that's illegal in a tournament or league play. However I think an argument that a slide save is somehow nicer on the cabinet and its structural integrity is bullshit.
Quoted from Rum-Z:Speaking of cabinet structural integrity: There were some recent DMD era Sterns (looking at my AC/DC Luci) that didn't have good cabinet corner bracing. Those I wouldn't want to death save on, out of fear of cracking a cabinet corner seam. I added metal reinforcement angles to my AC/DC Luci. After that, I was fine with the death save attempts on it.
Yeah I've heard about this about this era of Stern cabinet even up to Aerosmith but I've never seen it in person. Honestly though, I still don't think that a death save is any worse on a brace than an aggressive outline shake, but maybe I'm wrong.
Quoted from drypaint:One is a custom powder coated game that I won't be able to match the finish on.
Sounds like you should reconsider what type of work you're getting done on the games you put out on location. I mean, if I roll up to a nice tricked out Prem/LE game or whatever, sure, I'll be a little gentler than I am normally I guess, but mostly because it's owned by some sad sack that parks their car in two spots at the grocery store so people's doors don't accidentally bump into your car.
Quoted from drypaint:Here is an image I had made...
[quoted image]
Sweet!
Quoted from John_I:To me, if you can do death save easily on any game that means the tilt is not tight enough and also the legs are not tight enough. A new Stern feels like it weighs 1000 pounds if you tighten the leg bolts a little extra and put it on rubber feet. The plastic aprons on Pros seems to bounce more than Premiums and LE metal aprons, so that is in the mix too.
Not here to wave my dick around here especially about something that people seem to hate, but I can pretty consistently do a one handed death save on the Stranger Things (Pro) we have on location near me that I am (for the most part) responsible for servicing and maintaining. A nicely done death save won't turn heads or cause attention like a slap save does.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them if you do them for fun on your own games or on a friend's collections where it is deemed acceptable, the problem with having them allowed for tournaments is that if the tilt isn't set perfectly the ball/game times will be incredibly long because it's essentially another way of giving yourself extra balls. Even if the tilt is set super sensitive you can still get away with death-saves if performed right.
As far as damaging games I think there's a big variance in technique of how players perform death saves. On a modern Stern with a plastic apron you shouldn't have to move the game more than a 1/2 inch left and right to do them successfully, yet you see people man-handle machines and slide them 6 inches both ways and hit the machine next to it when trying to save the ball. I set my tilts up tight at home and unless a death-save is executed perfectly it's going to tilt.
Quoted from radial_head:Sounds like you should reconsider what type of work you're getting done on the games you put out on location. I mean, if I roll up to a nice tricked out Prem/LE game or whatever, sure, I'll be a little gentler than I am normally I guess, but mostly because it's owned by some sad sack that parks their car in two spots at the grocery store so people's doors don't accidentally bump into your car.
I should reconsider my business plan because there are a small handful of inconsiderate, man children out there in the world that can not help themselves and deal with the loss of a shiney ball? What does it matter of it's an LE or a pro? And what does a car parked in two spots have to do with it? I think you are really reaching here.
Quoted from LORDDREK:Can someone explain the difference between a “death save” and a “slide save”?
A death save generally involves sliding the game in two directions, not just one. That corrective reverse "slide" usually requires a hip check or a kick to the leg of the machine.
I don't think it disrespectful if done right, honestly you can do it without hardly moving the game.
I can Death save any stern any where any time with any BAC. That Bob hits once or twice and settles imMediately.
WPC forget it. Terrible at it.
I would NEVER do an old game with a tired cabinet.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:A death save generally involves sliding the game in two directions, not just one. That corrective reverse "slide" usually requires a hip check or a kick to the leg of the machine.
I have never heard that definition of a slide save before. Not saying you are wrong, I have never looked it up. In fact if you are right, then I need to brush up my vocab! I always thought of it as sliding the machine on a smooth surface, which can be very easily done. Even on accident. My 9 year old daughter who weighs no more than 85lbs accidentally slid a new Stern Rush in the warehouse of our distributor. Not on purpose, she was just trying to keep the ball alive. She turned red with embarrassment when it happened, but managed to save and cradle the ball. I keep rubber feet on our games to prevent this.
Quoted from drypaint:I keep rubber feet on our games to prevent this.
Yes, the rubber feet prevent sliding/ death saving on most surfaces.
One could say that if an operator of public games wants to prevent these things, this is a better way to do it than making posts here about how awful the practices are.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yes, the rubber feet prevent sliding/ death saving on most surfaces.
One could say that if an operator of public games wants to prevent these things, this is a better way to do it than making posts here about how awful the practices are.
???... As an operator I am looked down on for participating in a forum dialogue where the topic is presented as a question? What better way to bring awareness from a shared point of view. Maybe a few people will walk away from this and think differently when they walk up to someone else's machine.
Quoted from drypaint:???... As an operator I am looked down on for participating in a forum dialogue where the topic is presented as a question? What better way to bring awareness from a shared point of view. Maybe a few people will walk away from this and think differently when they walk up to someone else's machine.
Why are you getting agitated? This isn't personal, just opinions. Nobody is "looking down upon" you.
Like I said, the best way to protect your games from behavior you don't like is to be proactive. If this keeps you up at night, buy cheap rubber feet. Boom. Not an issue.
If you are worried about 12 year olds harming the games, ban 12 year olds, or hire someone to watch them play. Same with graffiti, vandalism, etc. etc.
Agitated screeds here really won't accomplish much. The reality is that public games are public, and most public games aren't exactly in a "museum setting."
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Why are you getting agitated? This isn't personal, just opinions.
Like I said, the best way to protect your games from behavior you don't like is to be proactive. If this keeps you up at night, buy cheap rubber feet. Boom. Not an issue.
If you are worried about 12 year olds harming the games, ban 12 year olds, or hire someone to watch them play. Same with graffiti, vandalism, etc. etc.
Agitated screeds here really won't accomplish much.
Re-read my post calmly and it won't sound agitated.
Quoted from drypaint:Re-read my post calmly and it won't sound agitated.
Sorry the three question marks gave me the wrong impression.
Quoted from drypaint:???... As an operator I am looked down on for participating in a forum dialogue where the topic is presented as a question? What better way to bring awareness from a shared point of view. Maybe a few people will walk away from this and think differently when they walk up to someone else's machine.
I agree with you 100%,I collected money for an operator before when he was busy.Went to a location where there were always problems and I hung back and observed for awhile.These guys were bear hugging machines and wrestling them around and I confronted them they said oh these machines are always broken,I responded do you think what your doing might be the reason.The guys were embarrassed and left.I recommended the operator remove all machines from that location.There is no reason someone should treat other peoples property like that.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It’s just something anybody would need to consider before putting their game in a bar or public location.
Hmmm.. maybe this is why I see less machines out there
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Sorry the three question marks gave me the wrong impression.
The reality is, some people are savvy and can pull it off with no harm and very easily. Most people are sloppy and risk a mess, because they don't know what they are doing. I find many feel practicing on someone else's machine is better.
We had a discussion at league one night about death saves as illegal. If they are considered illegal by league and tournament standards, then how good is a high score if it was achieved after a death save. It could be like a corked bat in baseball, where there is an asterick next to it.
Quoted from drypaint:The reality is, some people are savvy and can pull it off with no harm and very easily. Most people are sloppy and risk a mess, because they don't know what they are doing. I find many feel practicing on someone else's machine is better.
We had a discussion at league one night about death saves as illegal. If they are considered illegal by league and tournament standards, then how good is a high score if it was achieved after a death save. It could be like a corked bat in baseball, where there is an asterick next to it.
This is all true.
But none of that will stop the practice on location.
Rubber feet dude. Done and done! Unless someone figures it out and steals the feet lol.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This is all true.
But none of that will stop the practice on location.
Rubber feet dude. Done and done! Unless someone figures it out and steals the feet lol.
Sadly true... But for the record, all my games have rubber feet. It's actually what I think contributes to the damage when overly aggressive acts in side to side motion is practiced. I still have to have them for a variety of reasons though.
I’ve bought several WPCs from an operator that had cracked cabinets probably from aggressive save attempts.
The Data East point is funny, I’ve found Death Saves on my LW3 are so easy and fun.
I used to struggle a lot with them, if you want to death save your own game for fun, you genuinely are not trying to move the game much. It is maybe 2 inches of movement at the most! The ball needs a little extra momentum to bounce off the inside of the apron back up to the flipper.
A death save is an artificially created Lazarus ball. A Lazarus ball is when the ball drains so hard and fast down the middle that it pops back out. Usually you should scream and swear and it gets everyone going. It’s a real hoot.
My arcade has carpet so sliding the games will probably hurt you more than the machines.
Quoted from TheLaw:Becasue the ball has already drained and it should be over. At a certain(t) point its a lite "Cheaty"
Second this. The ball was essentially over and its cheating. Its abusive to the pin.
Its sort of up there with wearing a visor when you play golf...
yah you can do it but it automatically makes you come off like a huge douche
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Its sort of up there with wearing a visor when you play golf...
yah you can do it but it automatically makes you come off like a huge douche
I genuinely laughed at that!
Quoted from radial_head:Yeah I've heard about this about this era of Stern cabinet even up to Aerosmith but I've never seen it in person.
AS on location in Concord, NH. GB on location in Nashua, NH.
The GB was so bad that the pin was on a platform with casters underneath when I found it to play. Needless to say, Stern’s experiment to save $4 didn’t work out that well.
D1395BF9-15C0-408F-B99A-364016BC8EBE (resized).jpeg66A58683-4BB9-4A13-9BD7-F069A8EE06D3 (resized).jpeg
Quoted from radial_head:First time I've heard this term.
Picking the game up off its front legs because you're pissed you drained, commonly followed by letting the machine crash back down . Is there an actual term for this?
Quoted from Yoko2una:GB on location in Nashua, NH.
Hold up, Penuche's I can get you're trying to tell me that a bunch of 8 year olds at Fundworld are death saving the shit out of a GB?
Quoted from Elvishasleft:when you play golf...
You could have taken out the visor part and the statement still would have been true. 
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-s-so-bad-about-a-death-save?hl=drypaint and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
South Berwick, ME
Edmonton, AB