Night Moves is the greatest cocktail game made! Congrats! It has a really awesome rule set for such a small game

Galaxy is a great game!! So sad people keep killing them! yes Quicksilver is amazing, but Galaxy is too!

Those Pepsi machines are terrible. I believe that model should weigh about 600+ pounds. Hate moving them.
They’re only worth like $200

Agreed -- I'm waiting on boards returning so I can fix another friend's machine up so I can finally play it again! Night Moves and Caribbean Cruise are *awesome* games..definitely a break from what most cocktail tables offer...which isn't much.

I really don't like the idea of killing one game to make another, but given that this Galaxy has a TERRIBLE paint job, a shot backglass, and only a so-so playfield..it's a perfect candidate for such a conversion IMO. If it didn't need a new glass and cab repaint, at a minimum, or if the PF were really nice..I probably wouldn't consider it. We'll probably attempt to touch up the playfield, once stripped, to see if it can at least live on in some other application.

Hahahaha yeah I agree. I think that's about what he paid, and I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to just get his money back out of it. Definitely a silly purchase IMO, just buy a damn mini fridge -- or a real fridge -- and call it a day!

Donor pins
------------------------------Quantity produced-----------------------------Sales price

Hot Hand............................ 4117 ..................................................$1000.00

Meteor................................ 8362...................................................$1500.00

Galaxy ............................... 5130 ..................................................1200.00
====================================================

Star Gazer........................... 869................................................... $9,000.00
...
Quicksilver .......................... 1201................................................. $8500.00
====================================================

Wide Bodies

Flight 2000 ......................... 6301 ................................................ $2000.00

Cheetah............................... 1223 ................................................ $6500.00
====================================================

Greatwich's production numbers for his Star Gazer play fields.

"around 100 Star Gazer play fields".

Seawitch play fields. "Around 40"
======================

Mirco Quicksilver play fields. Who knows? I forget how many QS play field harnesses Third Coast has said he made but less than 50.
====================================

Dragonfist 302 $5,000.00 +

The numbers support sacrificing some of these old Sterns and converting them.

I'm not against it happening (although I do cringe a bit seeing it done with Meteor which I simply love) because those rarer games deserve to be played as well, regardless of value, I just wouldn't personally do it to a game that isn't otherwise VERY flawed (ruined glass, bad cabinet, blown out playfield, etc). I wouldn't take a nice Meteor or Galaxy and convert it but I also wouldn't condemn anyone else for doing it. There are definitely multiple valid arguments--on both sides--on this whole thing as far as I'm concerned.

These days, there are enough options for aftermarket boards and such that you can literally start with a partially populated playfield and end up with a fully functional game. With things like APC + LISY, you can actually get the original rules working on games as well via pinmame. Just a thought before sacrificing machines to build new ones....

I'm not even sure what some of that is, but it sounds like a hell of a lot more work than taking a beat donor game built on the same platform and swapping out PF/roms to build a restored different game. JMO. I think there are enough ways to either reuse good parts in something else (lots of games out there need better parts!) for anything worth saving. I would assume most people who would do a conversion wouldn't just go out and beat usable parts (which aren't needed for the conversion) with a hammer. I know I wouldn't.

Lots of ways to skin this cat, should one care to do so..

This might sound kind of dumb
but I think those quicksilvers and stargazers have no "Pinball Soul" that are made from the meteors and galaxies. They never were in an arcade bar or bowling alley as a quicksilver or stargazer . I love my early ss for their play and how cool to think of all the games played on it and all the places they have been.
Just my goofy way of looking
at things.

I'm currently refurbing a meteor now.

While it's neat to think about the history these machines have--where they've been, what they've seen, and what's been done to them--I'd argue that any restore, not just conversions, loses this "soul" the second they get restored. New playfields, new paint on the cabinet, new backglasses, etc..the act of restoring is simultaneously the act of undoing the historical elements, all the patina and imperfections. It's not necessarily a "bad" thing, it's just "a" thing. JMO, I'm certainly not saying this is factual information. Merely my take on it.

It definitely is. One of my projects right now is documenting the difficulty in doing just that(F-14 pf to fully playable game, with options for original and enhanced rules) with an APC board. I'm also working on repowering a Middle Earth with a cobrapin.
I fully admit that I have a problem.
But, I'm just pointing out that there are options for building games like this that don't take donor machines. Or at least, not complete machines.

EDIT:
It occurs to me that I was just back in Kansas last week. I should have pinged you to grab a beer.

I hear you. I try to reuse all the original parts. I touched up playfield ....etc.etc.

Lots of ways to skin a cat for sure.

JMO but I would think most people who would want to do a Quicksilver or a Star Gazer wouldn't want to do it without the end product being desirable as an "original"/"complete" game (IE using original parts--cabinet, platform, whatever) because it's a lot of work to do this and should the need to sell ever present itself, they wouldn't want to be handcuffed to any sort of oddball configuration that would limit their ability to sell. Kinda the same argument with putting a hardtop on a machine (which I've now done twice -- I don't care).

Like I said, I don't really *love* the idea of converting a perfectly good game into something else, but if the game is already crap -- with a gross cabinet, shot backglass, bad playfield, etc... I think it's perfectly fair to consider conversion to a rare game vs. dumping money into a game that's not worth much once done. If one has to spend $1000 to restore a $1500 game but can spend $2000 to turn it into a $6000 game they may never get to play otherwise? Well, from a dollars and cents standpoint it seems like an easy decision to me.

Absolutely! I didn't get any of the pins from the warehouse haul, unfortunately. I was really hoping to snag a Meteor. But... my old Meteor is one of the aforementioned projects on my list (CPR playfield, cab repaint, etc) and it will circle back to me someday. So, no REAL need to go grab one now. Just gives me more incentive to go visit my friend and play his.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to the huge pile of pin parts that was in Wichita at Bob Nelson's Gameroom Warehouse. I like to think that it's still sitting somewhere in storage, waiting to be found....

Agreed.

My restored Flash Gordon has far fewer OEM Bally parts in it than the Flash Gordon I'm building "from scratch"

I give all the props in the world to people who keep things original (original playfield, original plastics, original backglass, non-repainted cabinet, etc) and somehow churn out a really nice example..that's a hell of a challenge IMO. But at the end of the day is it better than a restored game with half of it being new production parts? Or a conversion? Or some other scenario? IMO it's all whatever you want it to be. As long as it's a working, playable pinball..it's pretty damn cool as far as I'm concerned.

My apologies! I did NOT mean to start this war!
I agree that they did make a ton of them so it’s a fair point to use games that had large production numbers. I just worry eventually they’ll end up “rare” like loads of other old EMs and early solid state titles that people used to think sucked and would fit for parts. Remember that back when these were coming out Stern games were basically scoffed at. This whole Classic Stern craze is relatively new.

Good luck to all of your builds though! I wish one of those cheap player Galaxy’s would come up near me!

I just ended up with a pile of parts left over from restoring FG and said to myself "hey I can build a pin from this!"

So here we are..

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flash-gordon-part-ii-

There was a $500 project one that was on CL a few weeks ago, never looked into it of course as I was busy with other things.

Hahaha I don't think you started a war. Nothing wrong with some spirited conversation! I certainly can see the concern here but I would imagine the number of conversions that will actually take place (as noted above) is still going to be super low in the grand scheme of things. It's not an *easy* conversion to do. Hell I'm not even sure I'm really up to the task, but I'm damn well going to try.

I certainly didn't come from a background of classic Sterns but the more I play them, the more I love them. They're just so silky smooth when they're set up correctly and well maintained. I think it's great that other people are coming along for the ride as well. They deserve to be loved!

No need to apologize. It is merely a discussion on the merits or demerits of converting an old pin.

One pinsider was restoring his original Star Gazer. For his restore, he used a Greatwich play field and a Greatwich back glass. And I believe he went with Alltek boards. And of course, a new paint job on his OG cabinet.

I'm am building mine using a Dracula cabinet. A Greatwich play field. And a Greatwich backglass and Alltek boards. We both have the 16B-6 transformer. ETC.

Whose pin is most original if the only limiting factor is the serial number on the cabinet? And without more data from Stern, what good is a serial number?

I know this from when I was test playing my Star Gazer build. It is a blast to play !

Ok my thoughts...

On the topic of cannibalism and the death of one machine to save another, this is a hard call. I am all for getting a title I want working using a title that "sucks" in my own opinion, but that may not align with people who don't think the donor title "sucks". From a historical perspective, every time a pinball machine dies, a demon gets its wings, so breathing life into one by sucking the life out of another is not really doing the hobby many favors. I would rather see every viable machine restored to working order, but there are only a few copies of certain titles left, and without knowing it, someone may kill the last working version of a machine to restore/repair a title that has hundreds of copies still in existence. That is the downfall of cannibalism.

Now given a certain machine has no life left to give us due to blowout pf, or nearly totally flaked bg, or a cabinet that has seen dryer days, then, and only then should we consider it "dead" and it's carcass available for the vultures.

The thought of dumpsters full of old pinball machines still brings a tear to the eye...

Just pretend they are NIB. So, no 20 years of living in a smoke infested bar.

People hate the analogy but many a muscle car has been saved by sacrificing a 4 door variant.

How many pins have been saved through aftermarket playfields and electronics that did not exist a few short years ago? Whole pins were tossed in landfills because there was no market for them dead with no replacement parts. How many pins have been built from virtual scratch? New cabinets, backglasses, wiring harnesses, etc. With the guys in Australia making Fathom and other classic Bally titles I'm curious how close the new parts will be to original stuff and available to the public.

Once "unloved" titles will appreciate in value once a certain level of them is reached making conversions a less attractive proposition.

I think that's a terrific analogy.

No really because there's no four door versions in the pinball world, they're all the same prized coupe.

Ro-Go is the equivalent of a 4-door Chevelle, IMO.

I brought home one of these! Some say underrated game, some say a pile of Junk. It is not my favorite but it is my wife's favorite. It will fit in nicely with my WPC-95 collection. I am 4 games away from having all of them so "one step closer".

More like a four door Chevette!

Brought this home tonight. Was surprised to see a new rotten dog mpu combo driver board in it.

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Pin-sitting this half decent Eight Ball Deluxe Limited Edition for a buddy during his move. He inherited from his uncle, so it’s been sitting in a basement for a long time. Definitely looks like it got a lot of play, and there’s at least a few wiring hacks going on that I’m gonna have to figure out. I think he wired the coin drop switch up to one of the targets so that he wouldn’t have to put quarters in it and credits would rack up during play (facepalm).

Also some acid damage on the MPU board it looks like. Otherwise not bad!

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If he had that much electrical knowledge to understand how to make that work... why on earth would he do something so dumb...?
At that point just jumper the credit button to the start button! People are so weird

WPC-95s are great machines. We’ve had a really nice Junkyard for a few years. We just brought it upstairs so my 3 year-old son can play it more. This is my wife’s fav pin too. It’s a quirky, oddball original theme for sure, but also a fun game with some clever features. The time machine is fun! Congrats on your addition and near completion of that series!

They will never play the same, as they were not factory built. It's more like a clone, copy of an original, but truly not an original. Or a Frankenstein pinball - many different parts made into one.

At the end of the day, we're all dying with very little time ahead of us on this planet, so what does it matter? I want to see someone really do something bold. Take a Dragonfist and convert it into a Meteor. That would make a great thread.

After 40 or 50 years in the field the originals dont play like factory built either.

True, but they can be cleaned and brought back to a much better starting point (never as when it left the floor), but much closer than a Frankenstein machine that uses reproduction parts from top to bottom.

It's like building a "33 Hot Rod from Factor Five Racing. Is it a real 1933 Ford? No. It's a new car built to stay as traditional as possible.

I think your summarization of a restored (new playfield, etc) machine as being "Frankenstein" is kinda laughable, but whatever boats your float lol.

I would hazard a guess that no two pinball machines coming off the line will play the same. They were not put together with precision in mind. Big Game had a GI light sitting right under a rubber in the sling area and I had to move that light.

Am I in the right thread? https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-machine-did-you-bring-home-today-post-your-pictures

What do you call a Star Gazer with a repro play field and all of the original parts under the play field were transferred to the new play field? Is it a Frankenstein or a Star Gazer with a repro play field?

Exactly. I can show you on my Blackout in which they didn't even put the posts in the correct locations on the playfield. While restoring Flash Gordon I laughed like hell the stuff that was out of square from the factory that had to be corrected. I suspect half the line was stoned while slamming stuff together.

I've only seen that one a couple of times. That looks great!

A repro PF isn't the same as the original pf. I took my original QS pf and had it restored and cleared. So it isn't exactly factory, but still numbers matching.

Frankenstein being a new pf, galaxy cab, retooled targets/mechs, plastics, new wire harness, new repo backglass, etc. A game with just a new pf I wouldn't call a Frankenstein machine.

Seriously though, if it floats your boat, rock on. We'll be dead in 30 years so it won't matter.

Get a room folks...

Yes! But unfortunately people mostly own machines to play and that game plays well...umm.... let's just say "it plays".

On the topic of cannibalization... there are a few dynamics. You can have this perspective that no machine should ever be sacrificed but to me, that does not make sense. Every game is different. You can also say, chop them all up for the most value/resale value. I don't think that is the smart approach every time either. With both sides, sometimes it makes sense to chunk a game and make it into a better one and sometimes it does not. Depends on the game and what is your end goal.

Personally, I like the way original games in decent condition play. Have I restored a couple to "like new"? Certainly. Have I saved a few beat ones that should have been gutted and just repaired them anyway and kept them? YES again. Would I destroy a common game or even a rare one to make another rarity or another common game? Probably not but, if the details dictate that it makes sense to reach whatever my goal is, then I certainly would.

You can build ANY game from scratch if you are so determined. But, whether or not that makes sense is a matter of each individuals commitment to the time vs. the end result. If every single person's time was unlimited, no game should ever be sacrificed but, that is simply not the case. Everyone's time is always limited. If not by life, then by death itself.

Haha, it *looks* cool..but I hear ya!

Scored a 90's Jurassic Park pin today. Probably not what you were thinking, but the price was right...$5...and the kids like it. It will go well with my Jurassic Park Pro.

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HUO? Documented?