(Topic ID: 15288)

what is this yellow pack by these flipper coils?

By mojozone

12 years ago


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    #1 12 years ago

    Hey guys, trying to learn about system 11b pins, what are these yellow pack, is it fuses? what is its function? thank you. DSC04811.JPGDSC04811.JPG

    #2 12 years ago

    It's to supress the spark

    CAPACITOR 2.2 UF 250V AXIAL NP YELLOW
    #C2.2M250VA-NP
    Yellow wrapper 2.2 uF @ 250 volt axial lead non-polarized metalized polyester capacitor typically used in a parallel circuit with flipper end-of-stroke switches.

    Reference:
    Data East 125-5002-00
    Williams 5045-12098-00
    Weight: 0.5 oz

    #4 12 years ago

    Good question I have never noticed these on any of my pins.

    At first glance I was thinking fusable link.

    Thanks pin family for sharing the knowledge.

    #5 12 years ago
    Quoted from Shoot_Again:

    Thanks pin family for sharing the knowledge.

    yes thank you

    #6 12 years ago

    When you press the flipper button you are breaking a set of points open. Those are those round things touching together that make sparks. The sparks will destroy the points over time. Like TPF said the capacitor suppresses the spark by "absorbing" energy when the points open. This makes the spark less violent and helps prolong the life of the points.

    #7 12 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    When you press the flipper button you are breaking a set of points open. Those are those round things touching together that make sparks. The sparks will destroy the points over time. Like TPF said the capacitor suppresses the spark by "absorbing" energy when the points open. This makes the spark less violent and helps prolong the life of the points.

    Good points by all. I would also like to add that if those fail you could encounter all kinds of weird problems - middle of game resets, boot problems, component loss, etc.

    #8 12 years ago
    Quoted from jwwhite15:

    Good points by all. I would also like to add that if those fail you could encounter all kinds of weird problems - middle of game resets, boot problems, component loss, etc.

    This is an inaccurate statement. The only function of the capacitor is to prolong the life of the switch contacts. You can completely cut that capacitor out and a game will function just fine without it.

    The diode(s) on the flipper coils are what prevent the symptoms you listed by shunting the induced EMF of the collapsing magnetic field back towards the positive end of the power supply. If those blow, you have bad news in a hurry.

    #9 12 years ago
    Quoted from TheKorn:

    The diode(s) on the flipper coils are what prevent the symptoms you listed by shunting the induced EMF of the collapsing magnetic field back towards the positive end of the power supply.

    Thinking about that more, that may not be how they function. It may be that they're instead causing a short circuit when the collapsing field reverse biases the power supply, and using the inductance to dissipate the power that way. Hmmmm... Too early to think about things like this.

    #10 12 years ago
    Quoted from TheKorn:

    TheKorn said:The diode(s) on the flipper coils are what prevent the symptoms you listed by shunting the induced EMF of the collapsing magnetic field back towards the positive end of the power supply.
    Thinking about that more, that may not be how they function. It may be that they're instead causing a short circuit when the collapsing field reverse biases the power supply, and using the inductance to dissipate the power that way. Hmmmm... Too early to think about things like this.

    To early to read it also. I'll read it again after lunch. Mmmmmm coffee........

    #11 12 years ago

    This has been a public service message from Professor Korn, the man who brought us the "hair dick". My eyes, my eyes!

    TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
    #13 12 years ago
    Quoted from jwwhite15:

    Good points by all. I would also like to add that if those fail you could encounter all kinds of weird problems - middle of game resets, boot problems, component loss, etc.

    Not looking to get in the middle of an argument, but I find this to be true. That voltage spike has to go somewhere and if it ends up going back to the boards(because the cap is dead or missing), you could/will have problems. BTW Mojo, there really is no reliable way to test caps, so in the case where you suspect it's bad, just replace it.

    #14 12 years ago

    Can this capacitor be used on a Gottlieb System 3?

    #15 12 years ago
    Quoted from jwwhite15:

    Mr. all-knowing, let me give you a little background...I don't get on here and spew all kinds of worthless and inaccurate information.

    I would disagree in this instance.

    I try to help people with the experiences I have encountered over the years...and yes you can cut the cap out and it will be okay...for a while. Then problems could and will start to pop up...I have seen this happen so please keep your inaccurate attempts at intelligence away from me, thanx.

    Your experience may also tell you that since you started drinking coffee right around the time you put in caps, that coffee must prevent problems. That doesn't make the statement any more true.

    But let's think about this in a slightly different way... After system 11, WMS decided to replace EOS switches with transistors (i.e. fliptronics). If what you're postulating were actually true (that the capacitor is necessary for proper functioning of the flipper assembly and without it other random damage will result) then you'd see a 200V 2.2uF capacitor across the output of the transistors on a fliptronics board, since the transistor is the electrical equivalent of a switch.

    There are no such capacitors on the output stage of fliptronics boards. Hence the 2.2uF is not necessary for proper functioning, it's *only* there to extend the life of the EOS switches.

    If you insist on arguing further, please feel free to address your comments to WMS Industries, 3401 N. California, Chicago, Ill 60618 .

    Post edited by TheKorn : fixing formatting

    #16 12 years ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Can this capacitor be used on a Gottlieb System 3?

    System 3's came with them originally, so... yeah.

    #17 12 years ago

    Dont mess with the Zohan...ummm I mean The Korn!

    #18 12 years ago
    Quoted from mojozone:

    Hey guys, trying to learn about system 11b pins, what are these yellow pack, is it fuses? what is its function? thank you.

    When an inductive load (coil) is in series with a switch, and that switch is opened, arcing occurs thru the contacts briefly, since the current doesn't want to stop flowing. The cap absorbs some of this current, reducing the arcing time*, making the contacts last longer. This is the same reason the points in pre-electronic ignitions had a condenser (cap) across them.

    *(When the arcing stops and the cap is charged, the big voltage spike occurs across the coil, and that's when the diode comes into play)

    #19 12 years ago
    Quoted from TheKorn:

    Your experience may also tell you that since you started drinking coffee right around the time you put in caps, that coffee must prevent problems. That doesn't make the statement any more true.

    Quoted from TheKorn:

    If you insist on arguing further, please feel free to address your comments to WMS Industries, 3401 N. California, Chicago, Ill 60618 .

    Very classy, you must feel good about yourself and think you must be something special. You can say what you want and put yourself above the rest of us...what ever makes you feel good. But I will tell you this, I had a system 11 that would reboot during attract mode, during the middle of a game, and sometimes when you powered on the Pin. For weeks I replaced components, rebuilt connectors, rebuilt boards and every time...bong...reset. One day I had the pf up and noticed the right flipper had a yellow cap and the left one didn't. I thought that to be strange, did some research, and put a new cap on the left flipper and replaced the one on the right...The Pin has NOT reset again in almost a year.
    I shared this experience, shortened version, here and you want to attack me and label me as an idiot. And of top of that this is not the first instance I have heard of that cap causing problems with a Pin.

    Have a nice day!

    #20 12 years ago
    Quoted from jwwhite15:

    Very classy, you must feel good about yourself and think you must be something special.

    That certainly parallels what my mom always told me growing up, but thanks for the vote of encouragement.

    You can say what you want and put yourself above the rest of us...

    I did no such thing; this is entirely a fabrication on your part. The only thing I did was call your statement inaccurate. I made no claims about you as a person.

    But I will tell you this, I had a system 11 that would reboot during attract mode, during the middle of a game, and sometimes when you powered on the Pin.

    See right there you should know that your flipper caps are not the solution. Your machine was resetting while you weren't even *using* the flippers or the caps. Something ELSE you did in that process of replacing a bunch of things fixed the problem.

    Many of us have been there, where you try ten different things and *one* of them fixed the problem and you're not entirely sure which one. And sure it doesn't feel great, but you fixed the problem -- hooray! But don't take a wild guess and then hold it out as THE solution. Worse, don't get all butthurt when people who genuinely do know what's going on correct your misinformation. Your hunch was wrong, and that should be the end of it.

    I shared this experience, shortened version, here and you want to attack me and label me as an idiot.

    Again, this is a fabrication on your part as I did no such thing. (The posts are still there, go re-read them.) I even went further to say that you may have given valid information previously (I wouldn't know), but THIS SPECIFIC instance you did not.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the engineering disagrees with your isolated experience. The symptoms disagree with your isolated experience. When those disagree with what you're doing, you're proposing a BAD FIX.

    tl;dr: Grow up, I didn't attack you.

    #21 12 years ago

    Let me start by saying I'm not here to burn any bridges and I have no problems with anybody...

    I have to agree with Korn here.

    I added these exact capacitors to my Gottlieb Volcano (sys80) per the advice of Ed at Great Plains Electronics to prevent switch arcing that was absolutely KILLING my switches. The arcing was really, really bad. We're talking blue streaks of lightning here

    I put these exact caps on the kickers and slings and never saw another arc again.

    Using capacitors to prevent switch arcing is well documented. It's mentioned in Clay's guides and in several topics on RGP. I've never heard of them being needed or used for anything else.

    Some good info on switch arcing here. Turns out adding a capacitor in this case is called "condenser", and the circuit it makes is called a "snubber" circuit. I'm assuming the coil takes the place of the resistor in the circuit outlined in the link below.

    http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_4/2.html

    #22 12 years ago

    oh, the korn...

    as always, making the friends, the fast.

    that's a lot of the ranting for it being so the early as the you said.

    thought the rgp was the behind me. guess its gonna just be the same the bs.

    -jon

    #23 12 years ago

    Well, maybe I should have put a more clear timeline in my post. I did not do all of the board work and upgrades at once. I did areas and sections one at a time and then play it and let it sit with the power on for a day or two and when the reset problem appeared again I moved to another upgrade. The pin was still resetting until I installed and replaced the cap at the flippers. I am not saying this is the end all be all, and I never said it had to or didn't have to be installed. I am simply sharing an experience. I would also make the assumption that it seems you have some electronic background and that being said you should know as well as I that sometimes components and circuits can do some screwy things that don't seem to follow the ideas they were intended. As far as "growing up" I am not ready to do that yet, I still don't know what I want to be...but thanx for looking out.

    #24 12 years ago
    Quoted from mojozone:

    Hey guys, trying to learn about system 11b pins, what are these yellow pack, is it fuses? what is its function? thank you.

    Wow, ask a simple question...

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